As wonderful as Tyros 2 is & I am personally enjoying performing with this KB, there is always room for improvement. I thought it would be interesting to listen to what people would love to add or remove from TYROS 2.........& maybe Yamaha will be listening & down the road we will see these changes if any? eg: 76 keys, 2x more Registration title views listed per page, MFD that includes direct access to Registrations & KEY changes also included.

I'm sure YOU have many more to add?

Every thing on Tyros 2 +
76 keys!

Also, a PC editor to edit and create styles and sounds and to load and save files on the Tyros from a PC.

Dnj you've only had the T2 a few minutes, why don't try enjoying it first and add your wish list for a T3 in a years time, it's not like we'll se a T2 replacement for another 2 years or so - some people are never satisfied lol

By the way there is a PC editor for the sounds already and you can easily load and save files from PC to T2 and T2 back to PC.
Just turn the T2 on holding down the music finder button.

Real Drawbars !

Impuls.

S-E-V-E-N-T-Y S-I-X Keys.

Craig.....I've had the T2 2 months & that's a life time for a pro player like myself who does this for a living,
"a years time?" heck, I might own two more different KB's by then ....wants & needs & changes have to be discussed out in the open so manufacturers will be aware.......don't for one minute think Yamaha doesn't already have a T3 or T4 & beyond on the drawing boards with all the goodies that are NOT available in current models that is how they make money
Now to answer your question.....I've enjoyed performing music on stage for the last 35+ years with so many KB's.......its the interaction with my audiences & making them happy with my music that comes first & makes me most happy......although at this time I do enjoy the T2 & it does the job admirably for now & I workaround its downfalls....what the future brings I guess we'll have to see.....do I wish for some personal improvements the T2 doesn't have to make me happier for my style of playing? YES.....Would I switch to another KB that addresses my needs in the future?
Most Likely!..... Meanwhile I'll continue T2ing along with what I have, its only another Tool of the trade to me..


[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 07-07-2006).]

Internal speakers for Uncle Dave.
New design, with Black colouring, no sharp corners.
Affordable by Starkeeper.
B3 voices like the G70, Fantom X piano voice like the G70, 76 semi-weighted keys like the G70, and vocal harmonizer like the G70. Maybe I want a G70.
Starkeeper


[This message has been edited by Starkeeper (edited 07-07-2006).]

DNJ notice the lol and the I was having you on m8
76 keys a must for me, internal CDRW for recording your own songs/albums to (that's providing there is a good mix down facility inside the machine, look at Yamaha's mixers with built in drives they are awesome) USB2 if USB is to be used again, no internal hard drive as it's nice to be able to purchase your own size rather than be told this is what you've got like it or lump it, maybe the ability to load VST's like the Wersi does (please make it work) although if there are more voices like the SA ones then who needs VST or Giga etc. and a nice big touch screen with loads of colours, quality of styles that are even better than the T2's, oh almost forgot a little fridge joined to it for storing my bottles of lager whilst I spend hours playing on it.

No more instrument icons under the keys..and make 76 of them!!!

Add some aluminum to the construction.

And stop all the HYPE!!!

Make it accessible to read Wavs or MP3's from the hard drive in real time..

Improve the GM wavetable..

Actually, don't worry about what I would like changed...I don't think I want one anyway.

But make the changes for your dedicated customers..

Incorporate USB 2.0 (or later)! On Tyros2, USB 1.0 is totally ridiculous.

Amen to that. Sweet, Live, cool,natural, mega, super atriculated, etc.
The new Roland E80 has fret noises on its new guitar mode. No hype. I hope the E50/E60 has these guitar voices as well.
Starkeeper


[This message has been edited by Starkeeper (edited 07-07-2006).]

Add a built in mini music pad pro

The new Roland E80 has fret noises on its new guitar mode

When I heard those sounds at Blackpool I thought they had sampled a cat scratching in it's litter tray

Just kiddin' they weren't too bad

I will try to not repeat too much of what others have said. Many good suggestions have been listed. Mine are:


- 76 keys

- easier access to changing splits

- 76 keys

- PC software for configuring all aspects of the keyboard (most importantly registrations)

- 76 keys

- MP3 functionality

- 76 keys

- Hi/Low impedance combo jacks for input and outputs and 2nd mic jack

- 76 keys

- Left/Right connectors for flexible arm lamps

- 76 keys

- music stand that does not come apart into little connector pieces to lose. Also it needs to be closer to the player. I find it too far away to read and sometimes turn pages so I use a stand-alone music stand that allows me to place it right about the screen.

- 76 keys

- More SA voices. Specifically a good clarinet, Jazz guitar, Electric bass, and Acoustic bass. I find none of these sounds on my T2 to my liking.

- 76 keys

- ability to attach a USB computer keyboard for typing

- 76 keys

- modify display so longer names are displayed for registrations

- 76 keys

- lots of surprises

- 76 keys

- some people have posted about real-time chord sequencers.

- 76 keys

- ability to change the octaves of LH voice as easily as RH voices

- 76 keys

- 2 measure breaks

- 76 keys

- Ability for the browser to go to any web address, download files and open Zips and RAR files as many things we download are in those archive formats

- 76 keys

- built-in wired and wireless LAN adaptor. And if this becomes a LAN aware device, how about a midi/file access driver for the PC that works over the network so we can connect the T3 to the network and access it via a PC without needed to run another wire for the USB.

-76 keys

- Continue to enhance chord recongition engine so it can identify more jazz voicings, rootless voicings, and slash chord voicings.

- 76 keys

- real-time performance controls for variation of guitar strums (aka Roland) with some kind of foot control option

- 76 keys

- some kind of really smart AI engine that does real-time variations to drumming, comping, and strumming patterns.

- 76 keys

- half-pedaling for the sustain pedal

Oh, I almost forgot, how about 76 keys?

[This message has been edited by RobertG (edited 07-07-2006).]

Craig, no offense taken...
"I LOVE YOU MAN!!!!" when & if I get across the pond I'll look ya up & you can bet we'll be pounding down some Guinness my friend my treat & playing the T2 & more for sure!! Thanks for the thoughts and reply!

My list is simple.

1.Better Split Point and Fingering Mode access.

2."Freeze" should work on Split Point and Fingering Mode...as of now, parameter lock must be used instead.

3.Keep Tyros3 at 61 keys, and make a Tyros3 Pro as a separate model for those who need the extended keyboard...I don't.

4.Definitely more SA voices...Fiddle, Violin and Harmonica would be nice.

5.Mod wheel and aftertouch assignable to more functions(e.g. rotary speed, chorus depth etc.)

6.Handsome polished wood finish...walnut or cherry...or polished ebony.

7.OTS on preset styles changeable and storable...no need to store as "user"

Ian

Although I like the improvements on the T2....Let me add to my previous list just in case Yamaha is reading for future units

No More Sharp corners on body

Link MFD to Registration with transpose also

Add separate controlled addition Mic input

XLR Mic inputs

Ability to Play Arranger/SMF/WAV/Mp3 at the same time with separate slider controls.

Use high quality tacky rubber coated knobs & sliders, wheels, for better grip also paint wont peel off.

USB 2.0

Increase Flash memory size

I do not own a Tyros. So, forgive me if what I suggest is already there. (I still use my PA80, but haven't lost interest in YAMAHAs.)

1. GUI front-end that runs on the computer (both Windows and OSX) but controls all or almost all parameters of the keyboard. e.g. Instead of changing the length of a note using numbers on the keyboard, click and drag on the computer so it changes the numbers on the keyboard accordingly.

2. I like speaker-less 61 keys. (compact and light)

3. Joy stick like on KORGs instead of wheels.

4. Just for the leg - preferably the left (I need my arm to play the Tyros once I have it) ;-)

Shiral

At 45 lbs maybe not.

A T3 with 76 keys and weighing around 30-35 lbs. If Roland can do it with the Fantom X7 (76 keys weighing 32 lb.) then Yamaha should be able to do it with a T3. Styles and Multipads don't weigh a whole lot as we know. Even 2 Gigs of RAM for the Sampler would only be a few 'ounces'. And semi-weighted keys would only add a few extra pounds to the total weight also. So Yamaha COULD do it if they buckle down and use lighter, stronger composites and parts that are quality in nature but also advanced enough to be light and of good durability.

And the price has to be 'below' the competition for it to be the hot seller Yamaha would like it to be.

Plus several other things I would like to see it have but time does not allow me to go into it at this time.

Have a great weekend everybody!

Best regards,
Mike

Actually, the only way Yamaha could interest me in a Tyros-anything these days would be to make a QY-T2 Module that competes directly with the Ketron MidJay (which, by the way, looks pretty spiffy with it's new 4.0 OS upgrade). The Yamaha QY line was cool and is way, way overdue for a modern revamp.

Yamaha has turned off a lot of people who were hoping for a new 76-note arranger and I'm betting they won't revisit the subject and open old wounds. Personally I'm beyond that now that I use 88-note graded-hammer controllers for everything. I'm also beyond paying $4000+ for a new arranger which is what a new T3 would likely have to retail for. A Yamaha QY-T2 priced around $1999 would make a lot of sense (furthering the market for T2 styles etc.) and would definitely rock.

But for Yamaha to listen to American consumers about anything is such a stretch...

[This message has been edited by Esh (edited 07-08-2006).]

Following these posts on the Zone, I just can't understand why Yamaha's last 76-er was the 9000 pro.

Clearly the desire for a 76 key Tyros is there. As keybplayer stated, if Roland can make the Fantom X7 at only 32 lbs, Yamaha can certainly make a 76 key Tyros and keep its weight down too.

I'll say this though, if Yammie adds the extra keys (just by the price history), I wouldn't be shocked if they jumped that price up by several hundred dollars.

Here's what I don't understand. Look at the Korg PA1X Pro's price compared to the Tyros 2. The online price for these models is a difference of what $100.00? The PA1X Pro, gives you 76 keys, and a touch color screen (of course touch screen navigation works for some and not others), but $100.00 Difference and the Korg has 76 keys.

There's no excuse for Yammie to not include 76 keys on a future Tyros. They're building them cheaper, using lower quality parts yet still asking the high price.

It's time for Yamaha to release a 76 key pro arranger, and KEEP THE PRICE WITHIN REASON.

Squeak

A Midi 2 Styles converter EASY to use, a better choir section, the current sounds very outdated in comparation to other sections (S.A., Mega), either a interpreter to READ/WRITE any STLYE format.....even a faster procesor, I notice a lag when changing registrations that contain a diferent style also that if you are holding a note( with a sustaining sound ), and change registration, a big volume "Bump" is heard, in the 9000 Pro the same scenario works perfect, only when you RE-STRIKE the keys, the new sound is heard.......please fix that.
Perhaps an output for a mouse to scroll some of the more and NEW features, making very simple to use, like the copy-paste-cut-etc....

Esh wrote "But for Yamaha to listen to American consumers about anything is such a stretch... "

A friend of mine who works for a Japaneese car manufacture agrees with you. He says that they really do not care much for American opinions.

We Americans like to think of the US as the "center of the universe" for many thinks, including our keyboards. My guess is that Yamaha does not think so and they look at their market research data and prior sales trends to determine future products. That's not to say that they don't survey and interview people in the US. I know that George Kaye said Yamaha reps from Japan came to his store for input. Ultimately, we can dream and pontificate all we want but I don't think our posts have much sway in Japan. I hope I am 76 keys wrong.

I think you are right in that we don't hold much sway. But I think we hold a little. There have been changes and improvements that I believe are directly related to sites like this one. We told Yamaha about the 'cheesiness' of their key feel on their mid-range Boards and they have actually improved things a bit with the PSR 3000. And although the Tyros' key feel in my opinion is quite acceptable, especially when compared to a PSR 2000 etc., Yamaha has made inroads with the Tyros2' keybed in that it is more suited for 'piano' playing with a little stiffer feel and action. Although I have to admit that if you have primarily an Organist background then the original Tyros' keybed may actually suit you better.

But the point is Yamaha is trying to change their image of toyish cheesiness that is often associated with their Arranger keybeds (and keyboards) to more of one of professionalism and I commend them for that. I think another reason they are improving their keybed action is because of the competition like the Korg Pa1XPRO and the Roland G70, etc. If they fall behind the competition in important areas then they will start to lose marketshare. And I don't think they want to do that.

Another thing they listened to was people's request for a Sampler on the Tyros2. Although, as we know, the Tyros2's Sampler is not a real Sampler but only a Sample 'player'. There is no editing of Samples or other intricate Sampler features like there is on, for example, the Motif ES' 'real' Sampler. But it is a start nonetheless.

The Music Finder has been improved on the T2, no doubt from input they read from the Synthzone or other Arranger sites scattered around the internet. BUT this is a case where we didn't get our full wishes realized (same with the Sampler) since the T2's Music Finder still doesn't do some of the things that people asked Yamaha to implement for it. Hopefully with the T3 they will get it right. Although Yamaha through an OS update could add the missing features if they wanted to. My guess is that they will wait for the T3 (or T4, etc.) instead of providing it through an OS update because that way they will get more T2 owners and others who want the latest greatest to upgrade to a T3/T4 which is more money to line their (Yamaha's) pockets. OS updates use up R&D financial resources and is in my opinion why Yamaha seems to be so meager when it comes to supporting their Keyboard products. They don't want to spend the time and money to further enhance their products beyond what is absolutely necessary e.g. "bugs" etc., and instead relegate enhancements and other improvements to the next model. In fact all the incremental improvements from one model to the next are all ways that a manufacturer uses to entice people to upgrade and buy their 'newest' creation. Everybody knows they do that. It's all about marketing and money unfortunately. With some companies the customer is way down on the rung when it comes to the order of importance. They put the "carrot in front of you" hoping to keep you interested and loyal to their product line, offering just enough of what it takes to do so but in many instances don't lift a finger beyond that.

I know I'm digressing here a bit but the gist of the matter is manufacturers HAVE and DO listen to the public's input and suggestions. If they didn't do so, at least to an extent, they would lose touch with the very people with whom they are trying to reach to buy their products. If they lose touch then they would obviously over time lose marketshare and of course the revenue that goes along with it. And that could spell disaster to a companies very survival. If they don't try and satisfy their customer's needs they must know that there is someone out there who will. To not do so would be like rolling dice; a risk that no reputable company intent on surviving and thriving should consider taking in my opinion.

Best regards,
Mike


[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 07-09-2006).]

Wow, Mike(keybplayer)....what a great post.

Very well spoken and right on the mark.

Ian

If Korg as I expect are going to release a 76 key semi arranger with all new bells and whistles, and also thinking that i dont believe yamaha will go the 76 even for T3, I think its back to the Korg I go. I have enjoyed the T2 for many reasons but the issues mentioned in all the posts I am unhappy with, and i'm disappointed that there has only been 1 firmware upgrade so far

Now that my G70 is gone......there is a feature I really enjoy using with it & hope some form of it is incorporated into future Tyros units or for that matter all arranger units......With the G70 makeup tools I was able to take a Drum track & Totally dissect it and was able to change "EACH DRUM PART" eg: Snare, Cymbal, Bass Drum, etc etc ...individually allowing to you create a new CUSTOM DRUM SET within that song or style......this is a critical feature in obtaining the correct drum mix in a song...something I with my T2 & other Yammy units......even my old KORG M1, i3 had a version of this feature....just another "WISH"

With 76 keys, i'd like another split point to assign an octave to a different voice.
I would use it for real-time answering parts to the lead voice. It would need to be independent of the sustain that is being used on the lead voice. So my 3-split setup might be bass, sax (with sustain pedal), piano (no effect from sax sustain).

I like to see surface-mounted volume/equalizer controls added to tweak the saved settings that are down in the menu.

[This message has been edited by MrEd (edited 08-13-2006).]

Ed good points ......another thing I would enjoy is to be able to "SAVE" Live Real Time EDITS to Styles & SMF On the Fly with no disruption in playing.....
also have "TWO" Stereo MIC INPUTS for a guest mic.

"Johnny...er, G70, we hardly knew ye".



chas

I'd really love the ability to load in sample WAV's into the elements to create our own drum kits then load them back into the T2 as TVN's. There are 10 user slots for creating your own kits by editing those already in the T2, but where as we can load in WAV's for creating new voices (up to 128 of them which I've done) you can't load these into make drum kits it even tells you this in the manual as Scott Yee and myself have found out.
Also 76 keys is a must. Forget the home users who are happy with 61 keys and put 76 notes on instead for all the pro gigging musicians. The home users will not mind since they will not be carrying it if it's stuck in their living room all the time.
Try to keep the weight the same by using different materials. Take a look at the Ketron SD1, that's 76 keys and light weight.
I'd also like to see the mod wheel and pitch bend reversed so the pitch bend is nearer to your left hand. For some reason manufacturers always seems to put the pitch bend wheel first then mod afterwards.
Maybe putting the mod and pitch bend wheels further up to where the power switch is and then moving the power button to somewhere else would make the keyboard the same size but still be able to get 76 keys on it? again as on the SD1

Hey, u guys stop stop!!! so many wishes so many dollars!!!!LOL.O please let me add if if something is left behind.

1 At least four separate buttons ( like registrations) for user defind mic settings.
(very important)

2 full sampler, ability to slice,change tempo without changing pitch.

3 Abiliti to load AKAI,GIGA etc.

4 At least two mic inputs.

5 Must be with built in speakers as we see on KORG Pa1x.

6 Improved harmonica,violin and piano.

7 LCD watchable in sun light.

8 More detailed editing in sequencer like Technics.

9 If possible, put lttle wave pads (like on fantom)on the panel.

10 As yamaha itroduced HD rec on Ty2,should be 8 tracks from now onward.

These are not "TEN COMMANDMENTS" just my wishes!!!!!!!LOL.

And rightly so.

I expect the Tyros 3 is past the prototype stage but just in case - i would like to see some of the things that have been added to the tyros 2 like theatre organ samples (like those offered by total transformation) may be SA blackpool tower wurlitzer theatre organ presets also some set ups for single manual and bass pedals like on regi stick plus .

Also like the Tyros 2 cousin the PSR-S900 i hope they include a USB wave file recorder (or pref mp3). Plus loads more Music Finder - perhaps more interaction with Tyros users so they can contribute Music finder files online for instant download on the net. The music finder (or equivalent on all flag ship keyboards) can really sell the instrument the more comprehensive he better.

I have a G70 but can't see any reason to change at the moment the E80 is pretty good , as is the PA800 but nothing has really beaten the G70/Tyros 2 in the last 2 years as far as i can see.

The same wish list as above goes for the next Roland glagship (G80) plus with this add sampling capabilibity would be good.

All of the above features (sans keyboard) in a 10 - 15 Lb. Module!
Ciao,
Jerry

The Tyros3 will not have 76 keys...you can take that to the bank.

Actually, Roland and Korg and Ketron will 'take that to the bank'...

What I don't get, Ian, is that these people ARE Yamaha customers. They DON'T want an entirely new arranger, geared to the professional. They just want a T2 (or it's successor) in a case with a 76 stuck on. Just exactly HOW hard is that to do? Yamaha seem to have gotten the process down pretty well with the Motif line (and don't be fooled... almost as few of THEM get taken out from 'home' and used on pro gigs as T2's!). Just exactly how expensive would it be to tool up for a 76 and case when the innards and OS are identical?

I find it perplexing that the VAST majority of 88 note keyboards ARE sold to 'home' users (in fact, the vast majority of ALL keyboards are sold to non-professionals). You think of all the WK's and NP-30's etc., that are strictly 'home' keyboards, and you realize there IS a market for larger keyboard sizes, even to the home market (in fact, ESPECIALLY to the 'home' market).

That Yamaha should chose to ignore these, yet alone the few pros that would love a larger key-bed, too, while other companies happily crank out larger sizes that sell well enough at least for them to stay in production and move on to better models just strikes me as hubris and stubbornness.

Just because Yamaha ARE the market leader doesn't necessarily make ALL their marketing decisions correct ones. If they DID have a 76 line and it prove unpopular, you would have a case. But until they step up to the plate, and THEN prove the need unfounded (while others DO have successful products with 76's on), the constant calling for a 76 T2 (or S900) from so many players here just seem to indicate a need that Yamaha REFUSE to consider, despite it's obvious ease.

Yamaha FORCE 76 users to use other company's products, no matter how much they don't WANT to. And the other companies are taking THAT 'to the bank'...

Diki,

You'll be a long while trying to figure out Yamaha's strategy...which obviously works quite well.

But, it's nice to see you thinking so hard.

Ian

Good point. Yamaha actually did delve into the high-end 76 key arena back in 2001 with the PSR 9000PRO. In my opinion it was the first high-end arranger that started to get the attention of pro level musicians that had previously shunned all arrangers as essentially toys for amatuers. The PSR 9000PRO had it's good points (76 keys for one ) plus a real Sampler, plus high quality sounds, etc. But a problem was encountered that in my opinion Yamaha hadn't anticipated, was when word got out that the processor used to run it was basically underpowered and users were encountering glitches and bugs in the OS and hardware while using it. These reports were verified by professional review sites who were able to simulate the problems and verify that it was indeed true. When word got out about it I feel it hurt the otherwise noble effort that Yamaha had accomplished when they created the 9000PRO, but as a result of these verifiable problems that people got wind of they started to shy away from purchasing one. Consequently it didn't sell near as well as Yamaha was hoping and ended up being considered a "dismal failure" by Yamaha's own admission. What essentially happened, in my opinion, was the 9000OPRO was sooooo feature ladened that the processor had trouble keeping up with all the various instructions sent to it and as a result experienced the problems it had.

It has been said that the Japanese, once they encounter a setback and/or consider something financially unfeasible (for whatever reason - only they know for sure ), that they then shelve any further development or advancement of a similar product in the future. In other words, once it had been determined that the 9000PRO was a 'financial' "failure" Yamaha jumped ship and has never looked back, or rather "forward" to developing another 76 key high end arranger. Although, in my opinion, it was not that there wasn't a viable market for 76 key high-end arranger products back in 2001 e.g. as noted by the fact that Roland, Korg, and others seem to be making it okay in that arena, it was because the 9000PRO ran into hardware and OS issues and because of it didn't reach its full potential and sell near as well as Yamaha had hoped - and it just so happened to have 76 keys tacked on to it.

It may be that Yamaha was looking at it from the perspective of "our first professional 76 key high-end arranger effort failed so we won't risk another attempt in the 76 key arena again, period."

It is not that there isn't a viable market for 76 key high-end arrangers (look around and see , rather it is that Yamaha failed at their attempt into the 76 key high-end market and have therefore apparently concluded that they aren't willing to take that risk again. Maybe it's a Japanese thing or maybe it's just a Yamaha thing I dunno. I kinda tend to think it's just a Yamaha thing going on myself.

FWIW, I have recently read where the Corporate heads at Yamaha Music Division have been attempting to re-adjust their policies, principles, and their thinking regarding the manufacturing of their products. There are younger higher-up white collar personnel being hired and re-shuffled within the company in a re-structuring move meant to put in place these new corporate ideologies and manufacturing principles. It is said that they are trying to focus more on thinking "outside the box" and relying more on employee input in the manufacturing process to better enhance and serve the companies bottom line and also the public's interests and needs as well.

All this could mean that we just might actually see another 76 key high-end arranger somewhere down the road and possibly in the not too distant future from Yamaha. >> I won't hold my breath but it does sound slightly encouraging though. However slight that slightly encouraging may appear to be.

Best,
Mike

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 10-29-2007).]

Mike,

It is my understanding (and opinion)that Yamaha does not consider the 76 note arranger market because it is too small.

Arrangers are primarily marketed for home users.

With Korg and Roland(if they replace the G70...questionable from what I hear)fulfilling the 76 note niche, why make a keyboard for such a small piece of the pie?

Ian

The thing that annoys me the most is that Yamaha tried to create an entirely NEW arranger in the 9000Pro. This wasn't a larger keyboard version of what WAS selling well, it was an entirely NEW product. (And EXTREMELY poorly tested, from all accounts).

Nobody (well, not many, anyway!) is screaming for a brand new, from the ground-up Yamaha arranger with a million bells and whistles and a 76... they just want a T2 or S900 with a bit bigger keyboard tacked on. Hardly something that takes a fortune in R&D to develop...

And I'm sorry, Ian, but your constant contention that Yamaha ARE the market leaders, so NO change is ever necessary hardly does you justice. If NO change were ever necessary, NO change would ever be made, hardly the case with constant (or at least bi- or tri-yearly) new models.

There didn't used to be a sampler on Yamaha arrangers. I guess, back then, to the folks that said they would like a sampler, you would have said, 'Yamaha are the market leader, and samplers are for professionals. This is a 'home' keyboard, why would Yamaha put a 'pro' feature on a 'home' keyboard?'

Well, they DID... Idiots, weren't they..?

Maybe, instead of spending ALL your time constantly defending Yamaha no matter WHAT they do, you just took a little time off from your 'manning the ramparts' stance, and just looked at the simple fact that SCORES of members at this site have cried out for a 76, even some who already have 61's. I guess that, just because the S900 suits you perfectly (but of course, so did the 3k, and probably the Yamaha before THAT and so on - it's a good job SOMEBODY wants just a little bit more, isn't it?) there should be NO possible improvement to Yamaha's line.

After all, it's all about YOU, not the dozens of other Yamaha users here, isn't it?

No, the sad truth is, if Yamaha DID make a 76 PSR or T2, you would be defending it, and the company's policy of making it, as strongly as you attack anyone's opinion that there should be one, now that there isn't. Yamaha could make a 44 note arranger and you would be perfectly OK with that, too, I suppose. The fact that you can't bring yourself to publicly criticize ANYTHING that Yamaha does, I'm afraid relegates your OPINIONS (because they are CERTAINLY not Yamaha official PR releases) to the level of used-car dealer patter. (Of COURSE it doesn't need a cup holder - cup holders are a TRUCK feature! )

And any salesman (or manufacturer) that constantly disregards the requests of their customers, sooner or later finds out that their customers have gone somewhere else.

Just for once, try to imagine that you are addressing a bunch of fellow arranger USERS, instead of some dumb 'home keyboard' customers, and dial back the company line, OK, Ian?

Hi Diki,

I love it when you take this stuff so seriously.

If only you could understand how little I care.

Ian

I KNOW how little you care, and how flippant your posts are, Ian...

Doesn't stop you from saying them over and over again, though, does it..?

It's just a shame that you can't raise yourself to the level of an intelligent conversation about what MANY Yamaha users and would-be Yamaha users would like to see in the products that the company that you occasionally work for produce.

Oh, whoops..! I forgot, again... You DON'T CARE.

No, you really don't know how little I care, Diki, or you wouldn't have replied.


Slow learner, you are.

Ahh, perfect example of a good thread gone bad....

One thing for sure...Yamaha (and Korg) tend to keep adding new features and, unlike Roland, they keep them...even if they are not used much.

Personally, I think Korg has edged out Roland.

Like the T2, you can bet the T3 will be a tough act to follow.

Ian

after spending some time w/ the motif XS, I wouldn't be surprised to see Yamaha move in that direction w/ the next-gen arrangers. the arpeggios (which are similar to multipads) are easy to create and manipulate, and while they're not the main draw of the XS, they could be the center of a very flexible arranger. this would also allow for more modern electronic styles -- there are tons in the XS, very weak derivatives in the tyros et al.

it is time for Yamaha to retire the rather dim drum samples from the arranger line and use the motif kits....ditto some of the bread and butter sounds.
another handy XS feature is the 8 knobs and sliders on the RH side -- the next top arranger should have that, to allow for on the fly part mixing, etc.

of course, I'm also waiting for yamaha to fully implement midi and sequencing capabilities in the mm6. err, perhaps that's coming in the mm6pro???

For me its quite simple: I want Motif sounds on my Tyros - especially drums. Lots of sharp, cutting, drums! I'm sick of plastic.

its been a few months now since i purchased my Motif XS6 and still every time i play it i get blown away by the sounds.

If Yamaha had an arranger with the Motif Sound engine I would buy one straight away!

Yamaha uses the AWM2 (Advanced Wave Memory 2) on the Motif line of keyboards which includes the Motif XS. The Tyros/2 uses AWM (Notice no "2") wave memory. I have searched high and low for the differences between two i.e. AWM and AWM2 but I'm still not sure what they are. Maybe it has to do with the sampling rate when recording the different samples, or perhaps they are longer samples, or perhaps even recorded at a higher bit rate, or perhaps all three plus other additional reasons. Maybe Yamaha doesn't want to divulge the differences either because it is a trade secret. But whatever the differences are they are very noticable. One fine example that has been attested to is the differences in the Drum samples. The Tyros/2 drums are flat and lifeless by comparison.

I think it is time for Yamaha to step up and give their top-of-the-line arrangers the same AWM2 wave memory as in their totl workstations i.e. the Motif series. I've said it before that we are paying as much or more for Yamaha's totl arrangers as for their totl workstations so it should behoove Yamaha to provide the same technological advancements for their totl arrangers as are in their workstations.

And the sound differences go beyond just the drum samples. Some of the synth sounds in the Motif XS are simply superb as also are the Acoustic Pianos which in my opinion run circles around the Tyros/2 ac pianos. That's not to say the Tyros/2's ac pianos aren't good themselves but the Motif XS ac pianos simply out shine them quite a bit. And the AWM2 has a lot to do with it most likely.

It is going to be a real undertaking for Yamaha to come up with something that gives the T3 (although I seriously doubt Yammie will call it the Tyros3, but stranger things have happened ) - and give it the edge in sound and features to once again blow everything else out of the water. When I hear the Pa2x demos I am simply stunned and amazed by those awesome guitars. And many of the other sounds are really outstanding in my opinion. And then there's the Ketron Audya around the corner waiting to be released sometime in 2008. And I have a hunch that Roland will be releasing a new workstation shortly and then a new totl 76 key arranger waiting in the wings from them after that that will be based on the sound architecture of the new workstation.

Things are indeed progressing in the area of sound quality and also style and feature enhancements with these new and soon to be released arranger products and hopefully Yamaha will produce something that will keep them in the thick of things technology wise and in the maintaining of their lead on cutting edge features and sounds and ultimately for us the consumers who purchase and use their products.

Best,
Mike

Real DrawBars that also act as part volumes when not in Organ mode. (As per Korg & Roland)

A good screen, the present T2 Screen is very poor.

Style Re-Voicing transpose on the keyboard.

Onboard Speakers.

Keep it Silver.

Hi Mike
AWM uses 12 bit sound samples, AWM2 (2nd Generation) uses 16 bit sound samples.
Main problem with Yamaha Arrangers is the output sound system which gives the voices a compressed CD like sound.
When Tyros 2 was launched its SA voices were way in advance of the Motif line, and the Articulation voices on the new Motif are a variation on the Tyros 2 SA voices.
As to Roland, have a listen to the new Atelier Organ range as they have a vastly improved sound engine which will most likely be used in Roland’s new Arrangers. (The sound engine in the existing Atelier Organs is pretty much the same as in Roland’s existing Arrangers.
As to Tyros 2 being cutting edge when it was released, then No, but it did add new sounds and features that allowed it to stay up the top with other manufactures Arrangers.
Hope this helps

Bill

I searched the net for 3 minutes... found this... http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar98/articles/yamaharange.html?print=yes that states that AWM2 was present in 1998, and if I remember well AWM was the thing they touted when i was shopping for a keyboard in 1994.

here, http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSeriesDetail/0,,CNTID%25253D2007%252526CTID%25253D203500%252526CNTYP%25253DPRODUCT,00.html they state that AWM uses 16 bit samples, instead the 12bit usual thing.

My sense is that AWM is a sampling/compression/synth engine that every time is used to a percentage of its potential according to marketing needs and model placement. To us, it is of no use what the name of the technology is, we must care about how it sounds.

I don't care if the Motif line has the Pope's seal on it, if it sounds better than the competition I will buy one.

76 76 76 76 76 76 !!!!!!!!!!!!
Boy O Boy !!!!!!!!
There has been an awful lot said in this topic - Good stuff. There seems to be certain undeniable messages here - good solid messages from a gathering that knows its stuff and .... when Yami doesn't listen (to their own gathered fraternity) it means dollars (heaps of them)to their opposition all the way to the bank and a further erosion of the Yami fan club. Such a pity. Yes the 9000PRO is not a perfect k'board (is there such a beast? I don't think so). However I love to use it (professionally, it's robust and super reliable) - it is very predictable within its design boundaries. It performs well and still raises the praises from an admiring crowd (most of whom do not follow the latest and the greatest that technology has to offer. They just like to enjoy.) The message to Yami seems to be that they produced the 9000PRO and yes, because of its spec, it attracted its critics, but at the end of the day the k'board works and works well, kept within its limits (which for me, satisfies the vast majority of situations). Take what you have learned, what you now know and step out and produce a board that will stem the flow of "free" dollars into your opposition’s bank accounts. The opportunity is there and you have the "know how" and the experience to seize it and succeed. GO FOR IT. You won’t be disappointed. Neither will your (shrinking) fan club. Here endeth the lesson.
Jon

But watch Ian deny them...

They merely remind me of that wonderful and nearly finished home keyboard, the Roland G70.

Leaving products, like the G70, unfinished, has been a Roland hallmark lately...and not so lately...it's predecessor, the G1000 had unfixed "bugs" as well.

On a clear day you can still hear the owners whine.

Jon,

I would concede that 76 notes might be more advantageous to a player who wants to use the arranger as a digital piano, especially for solo pieces.

Still, there are several members on SZ, IUD (Illustrious Uncle Dave) and DNJ (Donny)for example, who manage exceptionally well with 61 notes and still manage to play piano over a SMF or play LH bass.

They were clever enough to adapt, and consequently wind up with using an arranger(in this case a PA-800)with a much smaller footprint and an easier(lighter) to manage instrument for transporting.

Personally, I feel the small number of players who need 76 keys will easily be absorbed by other manufacturers.

It is my view that Yamaha won't base their marketing on the opinions of a few guys on a forum (I don't see Roland doing it either).

Yoda yoda yoda...


Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 11-02-2007).]

Ian,
Much of what you say shows wisdom and holds water. Yes, and IUD and DNJ do manage well with only 61 keys. One makes do with what one has (and needs). But, I too came from the class of 61. It was in fact the comments from the likes of IUD (when he owned a 9000PRO), that encouraged me to step out and go for the upgrade. I have never looked back. It’s great if you want to solo piano, (I love doing solo piano) but with the rest of the technology that this machine and similar ones like it offers, I very rarely do solo piano work. 76 keys gives me the extra real estate, the better key feel and what seems to be the superior quality of production build (robustness) that provides me with the technical edge that I have not found 61 keys can provide. It provides me with the additional capability and confidence which builds the creativity for the moment. For what I do, I would never (well hardly ever) consider going back to 61 – it is way too constrictive (for all the reasons mentioned). That is why I have kept the 9000PRO for so long, adding the extra board or two, USB port, memory and the like, even though I am always looking at an upgrade alternative (currently the Roland G70 or Korg P2x). I am so thankful that that the likes of Roland and KORG continue to have their priorities in focus for us “small number of players who need 76 keys”.

Jon

I must say, Jon, that Yamaha do make some seemingly strange decisions...I thought the PSR-9000 pro was a great keyboard, even though I feel it wasn't developed and supported as much as it could have been.

If the rumors about Roland's lack of a G70 replacement are true, then all that will represent the 76 note arranger will be the E-60...but who knows for sure.

The Korg PA-2X Pro may end up the only arranger (among the big three)for those wanting a TOTL arranger with 76 keys.


Ian

Ian, please, no death wishes or prophecies here!!! The advent of a “new” model to replace last year’s model (car and clothing market fashion philosophy) should not be necessary (in the musical instrument field) if the product’s base concept and design is forward thinking enough. The product should be allowed to develop and be supported through its life cycle (whatever that is), and for support to continue for a realistic period beyond. Look at the Motif in all its variants (the line has been around for some time). Just because the 9000PRO is no longer developed or supported by Yami, does not mean that it suddenly becomes any less of an instrument than it was when it was in its supported life cycle. I am amazed (and encouraged) by the number of (Pro) boards (from other manufactures) that are “old” (not of the current generation or so) and still supported by the manufacturer, and used by the people who “love them”.

Look at the Motif, and the T2. The base tools and components are all there for Yami to do its stuff and produce a “76 key” arranger. All it takes is a "champion for the cause" at the right level of management to be raised up, and the product will be born.

Jon

Jon,

Rumors of the lack of a G70 replacement are just rumors...but Roland has neither confirmed or denied them at this point.

Also, if you read some of the posts at Roland Arranger forum, it seems that Roland's fixes for the G70's OS have stopped.

Remind you of the PSR-9000 pro situation?

Maybe there will be a new high end E-series with 76 keys instead of a G70 replacement?

Ian

Ian,
"On October 1, 2004 Roland will be unveiling a new 76 key "top of the line" arranger keyboard." (a notable quote from the past from this forum). This means that the G70 has been around just three years. If it is being withdrawn now, (or has been placed on the slippery slide to oblivion) then that is not a really satisfactory (business wise) outcome for such a corporate investment, not to mention a good result for the fraternity that have made the considerable investment in dollars, time and patience, to get proficient with this board. One would hope that the rumors of its demise is a misquote or a poor interpretation of some statement, and that the G70 still has some life in the ol’girl yet. I guess we can all be victims of the corporations if we choose to make that choice. At the end of day Ian, we live in hope.

Jon

If Roland has indeed been faithful to support the G70 in the 3 years it has been out then they are to be commended for their diligence in my opinion. For instance Yamaha, on the other hand, supports their high-end boards with about a years worth of support and then they basically mothball the support. The support is mostly for bug fixes in the OS and apart from that the owners of said high-end arranger(s) are on their own even though Yamaha could provide additional support in the way of add-ons, hardware extras, or even OS enhancements (instead of just bug fixes).

So if Roland has been supporting the G70 for 3 years it is essentially 3x the amount of support Yamaha has given T2 owners.

Keyboards do reach the end of their cycle but it is noteworthy when a company continues to support a keyboard or other product beyond its life cycle i.e. beyond its production cycle. Roland and Korg come to mind. I wish Yamaha could do the same.

PS: Yamaha usually comes out with a new high-end arranger or workstation every 3 years or so, for example the Tyros/Tyros2 and/or CVP 309/310 and/or Motif/ES/XS. So Roland coming up with a G70 replacement after 3 years is reasonable and desireable. There has been new technology from Korg and Yamaha since the G70 came out e.g. RX voice technology and of course Yamaha's SAV technology. Roland needs to keep up with the Joneses so to speak and give consumers something that will better compete with these other newer sound enhancements from Korg and Yamaha or they risk being left in the dust and losing big time market share. Even though the G70 is a good sounding keyboard there is always room for improvement and also the necessity that if Roland doesn't keep up technology wise they will be left behind and I think they realize that of course and therefore won't delay the G70 replacement for too much longer.

I really think Roland has something up its sleeve or at least on the drawing board that is being developed and/or will soon be released to counter these threats from Korg and Yamaha. At least they better have.

If not, it may be curtains for them market share wise:

By the way I realize that the E-80 was released only about a year and a half ago but it was based and built on the G-70 concept i.e. its sound set and architecture. Also the E-80 is outrageously overpriced in my opinion besides weighing a ton (figuratively speaking of course ).

So even if Roland delays a new 76 key new concept keyboard they would still do well in my opinion to at least release a new 61 key new concept keyboard relatively soon, so as to compete with Korg and Yamaha on at least the 61 key keyboard front.

Best,
Mike

And then release a 76 key new concept keyboard after the 61 key has been released. But I think everyone would prefer they release the 76 key one first because of the fact that the G-70 is now over 3 years old and getting long in the tooth, whereas the E-80 is relatively new(er) on the market.

Best,
Mike

Boy how I wish we could edit our posts once again.

Best,
Mike

Long in the tooth? there are many many players that are making such great music with the G70......how old is not any indication of what a player that is happy & knows what they are doing can accomplish....
new toys dont necessarily make good music....attention to your particular needs is what is of the utmost priority...I see fantastic KB performers all the time and many of them have Kb's that are 15-20 yrs old....& sound phenomenal...because they know the unit in and out & they know how to play it......never count out the oldies baby.

Of course, side stepping the issue of the complete lack of a 76 choice from Yamaha, compared to nearly every other manufacturer, and trying to place attention on the fact that the G70 MIGHT (without a single word officially from anyone actually AT Roland) be the last G70, and MIGHT need a few last OS fixes or upgrades, WOULD be the response of someone that basically has NO answer to WHY Yamaha chose to take this path other than his own (and very close to solo) opinion that 'that's just the way it is, some things'll never change' mantra.

Of COURSE, no-one whines about the lack of new OS features and bugfixes (other than those that facilitate the marketing of online content from Yamaha), because they realize the utter futility of trying. The list of completely new features added to the G70's OS in the three years since it has been released should shame Yamaha owners (other than Ian, who sees no evil, hears no evil when it comes to his choice in arrangers) into realizing what poor after market support they do get.

But, for all of Ian's claims that only Yamaha can get it right, their arranger lines fly in the face of the ENTIRE keyboard industry, including the rest of their own divisions... Take a perfectly good sounding, very professional OS (let's face it, how few Yamaha users actually USE even a moderate percentage of all the advanced features on even an S700, yet alone an S900) and stick it in a toy 61 case and keyboard.

Even Yamaha's workstation division won't stoop THAT low... yet alone every other arranger manufacturer.

But trying to shunt the attention elsewhere doesn't fool anyone. Whether a G70 needs or doesn't need any MORE OS improvements has NOTHING whatsoever to do with whether Yamaha are too timid to go after a market segment dominated by other manufacturers after their first foray into it was such a poorly executed (you think the G70 had problems?!! ) fiasco.

Nice try no banana...

BTW if you care SO little, Ian, why the CONSTANT replies..? 'Methinks the lady doth protest too much'.

Diki,

You are beyond question a writer of power; and your power lies in your ability to make your posting so thoroughly, graphically and aggressively unattractive that one is fairly shaken to ponder how little one has been missing.

Ian

What has happened to the edit function???

Jon,

It is nice to see a gentlemanly and concise response to this issue.

I merely added the bit about the G70 to illustrate that issues of non support for arrangers is not exclusive to one manufacturer...some people have such difficulty with the simplest of statements, but you seem to understand my motive quite well....thank you.

It would be a shame to see the G-series line end with the G70, and, even though Roland seems to have given up on it's support of the "ol' girl", it is still a nice keyboard.

It is also a darn shame that Yamaha will not put a 76 note keyboard on the next generation Tyros.

The PA-2Xpro, with its limited style fills, and the G70 with it's unfinished guitar mode and incomplete accompaniment system (it will not allow the basic ability to change chord recognition type without the Accompaniment parts being cut off) would be outclassed by even a 76 note Tyros2.

If Yamaha had stuck a 76 note keyboard on the S900, it would also have given these keyboards stiff competition.

I have never claimed that I know WHY Yamaha does what it does...those answers will never be revealed to a person of my modest position...but I do get news sometimes of WHAT will happen...and the Tyros3 will remain at 61 notes, no doubt to the delight of Korg and Roland, and the dismay of Yamaha aficionados.

It would probably greatly benefit the consumer if Yamaha were to produce a 76 key Tyros3, as competition generally forces other manufacturers to improve their products, but sadly Korg and Roland will continue on unchallenged with their limitations and unfixed OS issues.

On the subject of the PSR-9000 Pro...a friend of mine owns two of them, and wouldn't part with them for love nor money.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 11-04-2007).]

I don't really get the whole 76 key thing. Quite frankly the only instrument you could use it with is the piano, and as everyone knows, the piano sample on the T2 is, unfortuantely, nothing to be proud of...

I would rather my keyboard be more portable than have the extra keys tacked on. Just my preference.

Chony

Little by little I'm leaning to that way of thinking also Chony regardingthe 76 keys although I was a big fan.......you really start to realize your priorities when you gig alot every day on the road at different locations for sure, having to make certain compromises is a must....I never liked the Tyros pianos either.....Roland's & Korg's are so much warmer & responsive to my ears personal choice as is personal needs.

But sadly, when your arranger DOES have a beautiful Grand Piano inside it, it is a crying shame to not be able to stretch out and use it...

Don't forget the humble Fender Rhodes, either (although a little easier to fit into 61 notes). Not to mention the fact that, if you allow yourself 2 octaves for chord recognition, that's only 3 octaves left for your RH. Split THAT 3 octaves to get two lead sounds, and you are into seriously cramped conditions.

Then add in the demands of using the keyboard with SMFs, where you play in a FAR more 'standard' keyboard mode, sort of WS country, and having a decent range for at least TWO important sounds is usually a necessity. Although a 61 definitely takes the edge for 'convenience', 76 is often the more 'musical' choice if you want to PLAY like a normal keyboard player, who either favor several 61's or a 76 or even 88 as their main 'solo' axe.

If you STRICTLY only use the arranger in 'arrange' mode, 61 does the job adequately (but barely, IMO), but the minute you want to stretch out, and use it for sequenced stuff, or God forbid! even play with a band (the horror!), 76 starts to be more useful than inconvenient.

But, as usual, JMO, yada yada yada...

Just to post the grapevine info I have got from a source...is that Roland are planning an update to the G70 along the same lines as the Audya, ie using more flexible audio samples in conjunction with midi files for styles, plus the ability to record full wav/and or MP3 data. Possibly to a built in HDD, but more likely to a SSD..Thats all I have heard so far, not even the slightest hint as to a release..Also the E-80 is to remain the flagship 61 note arranger for a while yet, with maybe some more software updates. As i said it's just grapevine stuff, but who knows!!!

Hmmmmmmmmmm, Dennis looks like my Roland hint from 6 months ago about not an update but a NEW model is coming along nicely But what do I know? Yada yada yada.

So, which grapevine to believe?

The rumor mill grinds on... This one sounds like Roland are going to roll a few more FantomX features (it can do synchronized audio loops already) into the next G-series, and a new Atelier organ is touting some SA-like voices, so this looks like another possible improvement (however, from the demos, they have a LONG way to go on this one).

I know which rumor I would LIKE to believe in! Only time will tell.

But I still find myself dreading what well-loved (if not essential!) features Roland are likely to DROP, rather than which new ones they are likely to add... The list keeps getting longer.

I have often contemplated what would make me take the plunge and “update”. I do not have an answer. (!!???!!) largely because the things that I am use to and love may well not be present in the update, and change is always difficult, especially if you have to compromise on what you already have. I guess there will always be trade-offs (read disappointments) on every change. (However I did not really have too many (!?!) disappointments when I moved from the PSR 640 to the 9000PRO.) It’s a pity that there is not some generic standard of features (apart from the very basic ones that exist) that evolves which could include things, apart from the normal hardware configuration, that are more software functionality - like the number of variations, fills, harmony, eq mixing etc. You know, the things that we often take for granted, (because we often already have them) until we find out that it’s not, it’s only half the measure. Such a generic standard of features would be “make and model independent”, and could grow and evolve with time , and it would become the yardstick for every new model that was released. The standard would be referenced by time only. So when for example Roland releases the replacement, it is manufactured to at least the “standard” and one can quickly refer to the standard and see just how the new model supports it and where it improves on it, or falls short on it.
Anyway that's my two pence worth.

Jon.

Intro 2 to follow chord changes, this enable you to fit in better with the the tune to be played.

Why stop at 76 keys? Why not 88???

Or better yet...

Tyros3M (Module version)
Tyros3-61 (61 keys)
Tyros3-76 (76 keys)
Tyros3-88 (88 piano keys)

Let us choose which one we want!

And add that arpegiator from the XS!!!

And give us 1500 styles! And 8 variations per style

Doc-Z

Didn't know that about the Fantom, although my last experience with the Fantom was the FA76.. Diki have you played one with the audio loops and what was it like? Do you think it would make a big difference to a, say, G80??
Dennis

Well, I guess it wouldn't hurt, but in all fairness, except for modern cutting edge musics, live loops are usually used on most arrangers to beef up the fairly poor drums. I think that the V-Drums in the G70 are SO good (when programmed well) that there isn't as much need on Roland's as, say, Yamaha's, whose drum sounds could definitely do with an upgrade (I know some will knee-jerk a reply to this, but it is a comment made by many Yamaha owners as well as those that have tried them).

I simply feel that, by the time you need synchronized loops, arpeggios and modern tools like that, something like a FantomX or even better, a MotifXS is probably a better purchase. Just stick it on TOP of your arranger!

I feel that Roland, before they distract themselves with trying (probably futilely) to play catch-up with Ketron on live loops, or Yamaha's well-honed SA technology, should spend most of their efforts returning the actual OS to the effectiveness of the G1000, that, although a little long in the tooth sound-wise, was still one of the easiest and most flexible arrangers to PLAY.

It's MIDI implementation was seamless, it's arranger operation was seamless, it's performance data structure was unified.

The last few years with Roland have been one big litany of 'Why did they drop THAT feature?' from countless users. Sure, they have made the G70 and upwards SOUND the best that Roland have ever achieved, full, fat and deliciously 'live', with by far the best grand piano, drums and organ of just about anything, short of software arrangers like Wersi. But it has been the 'dropping' of things like Bass & Drums/Small Combo/Full Ensemble shortcut muting buttons (from the VA series), detailed aftertouch controls (from the G1000), seamless change from normal arranger mode to Pianostyle mode (from G1000) and many, many others including, of course (groan!) my favorite (and MANY other's!) the Chord Sequencer (from the G1000) that has most of us worried.

Most other manufacturers seem to incrementally improve their OS (maybe too slowly for some, but you seldom hear much protest about formerly available features now sent out to pasture), but Roland have this fetish with re-inventing the wheel every new arranger series, instead of just slowly improving it. This often adds in a lot of REALLY cool features (the Makeup Tools style and SMF quick editor is something I do NOT ever want to do without again!), but it often seems two steps forward, one step (one giant step!) back...

I am simply happy to hear at least one counter-rumor to the doom and gloom (somewhat gleeful in some cases!) prediction of Roland's imminent demise in the arranger market. Time will tell.

But I will state quite clearly that, if Roland just graft these 'me-too' features onto their next G-series without addressing the fundamental OS flaws (no global split, anyone?), my G70 may be my last Roland, and probably my last arranger. It is doing the job SO well that I can quite happily play it for as long as it lasts (ten years and still counting for my G1000). By that time, things will be SO different, the concept of the arranger may be unrecognizable to us now...

I would definitely go with 88 keys if the weight was acceptable doc-z. The only reason I am pushing for 76 keys (as opposed to 88 keys) is because I don't think Yammie and the others could keep an 88 key high-end arranger at an acceptable weight level. I recently bought an 88 key Casio Privia 200 that had 128 note polyphony and other advanced features and it weighed just a tad over 26 lbs. But when I realized that the Piano sound and many of the other sounds were not top notch I returned it for a refund. But if the sounds had been better I would have kept it.

If Yamaha, Roland, Korg, etc. could make a top notch 88 key high-end arranger that weighed in the neighborhood of 30 lbs or so I would be the first in line to snatch one up. That is, if all the other features and sounds, etc. were top notch also.

If the manufacturers can't oblige with a light weight 88 key arranger I would still be quite happy with a light weight 76 key arranger. But you are right doc-z, 88 keys would be optimal and desireable if they could keep the weight down. That's my opinion anyway.

Best,
Mike

With the all new features request for the Tyros 3, you had forget the USB 3. http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9780794-7.html
Maybe they are working for this untill release the new Tyros3?
How know...

I would switch back to Yamaha tyros 3 (when it is made) if it had these few simple things

1. An onboard sequencer that could do all the standard editing functions you would expect of a sequencer with touch screen technology( why the hell have a one shot record or basic "song player on a £2000 plus keyboard that has such limited editing capability)

2. A sampler that can actually be used to sample, slice and reconstruct sound with large sample memory (300mb and fast loading times that retain the loaded samples after the keyboard is powered down )

3. Seriously upgraded editable drums samples

4. The ability to play audio samples loops perfectly synced to the arranger styles

5. About 80 banks of well programmed rnb, funk ,soul and smooth jazz styles.

6. Inbuilt speakers

For me if the T2 had simply incorporated a real sampler, sequencer and onboard speakers i would have probably bought that.

Spalding with all those wishes the so called T3 will cost upwards of 5 grand.
I would lean more towards letting the player choose what he needs that can be added as plug ins etc .....so you can add additional thing to a upgraded quality foundational arranger workstation....this way you can customize it with different things as you see fit as a player to fit YOUR needs.....why should everyone have to pay for useless features they will never use.

I hear you DNJ. I like the idea of being able to customise your board with pluggins but i fear that the manufacturers would simply use that as a means to sell even more expensive bolt on hardware/software and argue that they cant get the same economies of scale becuase of not being cost effective. eg there not being enough demand for smooth Jazz styles, warehousing space, separate distribution/marketing strategy etc (yet every arranger has oodles of polkas and oompah styles on board that i never ever use and that i paid for within tyhe cost of the entire unit! ).

As an aside the PA2X , has almost everything on my wishlist and more but unfortunately is speakerless. It does not cost anywhere near $5000. The manufacturers can build the ultimate arranger but it makes economic sense to leave bits off or drop features and substitute them with something else. I am sure Dikki knows what i mean (Smile).

The listings here is very interesting, but If all these suggestions were taken into account...None of us would able to afford to buy one.

I have been playing arrangers since day one.....there will never be a perfect one we all know this...just choose what is the closest one that fits YOUR needs, buy it, use it, enjoy it until it doesn't interest you anymore .....then either keep it, sell it, or move on to the next latest & greatest.
NO MATTER HOW YOU LOOK AT IT ....it still is an electronic technology product that will constantly be changing every year that will never end. And believe me its still in its INFANCY we aint seen Nothing Yet...just wait and see! Tyros 3,4,5,6,7,8, Pa800,900,1000,G80,90,101, whats the difference? .......YOur Needs & happiness is the ticket always!

I think that that list of Spalding's is achievable at exactly the same price that T2's currently run for... Nothing of what he asks for isn't already available on either an arranger or a WS that is already considerably cheaper than the T2. In fact, all he's asking for is software, probably the cheapest thing to develop...

Roland's and Korg's have full featured sequencers with touch screen control (cheaper than T2 or equivalent, Korg have a full featured sampler with FAR better editing, and a vaster potential library by being Akai aware. Most top out at 192MB, but that's plenty. Most WS's will sync audio to sequencer. Load times ARE improving, but may never reach computer speeds, but at the moment, even computers can't retain the memory after power down. But no big whoop if the load times ARE at least an order faster than my Kurzweil (12 year old design, and STILL capable of 1MB/sec).

As long as sample load doesn't interrupt arranger play, load time isn't quite the bottleneck it currently is...

No, I honestly think that, except for the flash RAM thing (that even computers can't do), all of his requests exist in current keyboards. Just not assembled into one yet, other than the PA2X (without speakers).

Which begs the question... why hasn't some enterprising company built some good quality, low profile speakers that you can simply clamp to a PA2X..? I am not sure that, if the choice was between going without the features you mostly requested for the sake of built in speakers, or just finding a nice set of satellites that could easily be clamped or Velcro'd to an existing speaker-less PA2X (which has the vast majority of what you request), that I would have the patience to forego what I want in the vain hope that MAYBE, someday, someone brings something out with ALL I want in the same package.

Far better to get the closest compromise until the real deal comes out than have none at all, IMO... If that involves using a pair of satellites, so be it...

I agree Diki, pretty much everything Spalding is after is already on the PA2x, except as you say speakers..I do know the RRP in Australia is to be $5995, but street will be around the $4200 mark (which is about 3950-4050 US depending on current exchange rate) so it certainly is priced well.So his wishlist is definitely do-able, its just if a manufacturer wants to..
As an aside to your earlier post Diki, I was looking at a s/h g1000 out here a while back and I went to the Roland site to check it out further, and some of the things it could do wold be extremely well placed on a new model..Maybe that's the upgrade path Roland should look at as you suggested.
Dennis

sorry typo in my previous..... street is 5200, US should be 4950-5050...

The Pa2x will retail for roughly $4,950.00 USD and you figure a street of maybe $4,200. The Tyros2 originally retailed for $4,090.00 and now can be bought for under $3,500. The Korg, on the other hand, will have 76 keys, a real Sampler (with micro editing), Dual Sequencers (both with micro editing) 2 USB 2.0 & 1 USB 1.1 slots, real physical sliders, standard 2.5" hard drive included, TC Helicon VH, XLR Mic input, Dual MP3 player & recorder, Digital Out, and Motorized tilt screen. The Pa2x street price is evidently going to be about $800 more than a currently priced Tyros2. Are the extras worth it? We report, you decide.. Also it is worthy to note that the Pa2x will have a 2 year warranty from the date of purchase.

Now if Korg could just fix those hiccups with the variation fill-ins then we'd all be happy.. ier...

I'm sorry though. I think Korg is on to something with the Pa2x but in my opinion the 2x is basically a rehashed 1x with a few extra goodies added on. And there is still no word as to how much PCM WAV ROM the Pa2x has either. But I'm sure it's going to be compressed regardless. You think after paying an arm and a leg for a keyboard they would give you uncompressed WAV ROM standard. But with Korg you have to pay double i.e. eight Grand plus $$$$$$$$ for an OASYS for that privilege apparently.

I am going to bide my time and wait for Yammie to release its T2 successor. If they don't release a 76 key version I will then proceed to give the Korg Pa2x some more serious consideration. >> Maybe Korg will by then have fixed the fill-in/variation anomaly with an OS update too.

And by that time or possibly way before that time Roland may suprise us all with a stupendously magnificent 76 key ULTRA G-90 Arranger Workstation that will blow everything else out of the water including the Tyros3 or whatever it is that Yammie decides to call it. The kicker for the new Roland will be its weight factor i.e. will it be light enough for easy portability, and the price point. That goes for the Yammie also if indeed they decide to produce a 76 key version with all the bells and whistles as I'm sure Roland will do (bells and whistles) and as we've seen Korg do with the Pa2x. Although the weight on the Pa2x is borderline especially minus any built-in speakers, and the price is starting to reach into the stratosphere. As in.. How much did you say it was again? Could you repeat that please?? You said how much again!?!?!? Whoa! Ah, could you help me sit down please.. I need some oxygen since were up here in the 'stratosphere'. I think I'm gonna pass out.

Best,
Mike

Mike, I can save you some time...the Tyros3 will be 61 keys.

Ian

Well, these points are almost met by the current Korg PA2-X pro/PA-800.
Speaking in particular of the samples loading time, Korg Germany has just released the following news:

PA2Xpro:

loading 128MB WITH PCM AUTOLOAD lasts 400sec (6:40)

loading 128MB separately (after booting) lasts 280 sec (4:40)