on the long thread re Pa2x is here, the last 7 or so posts discuss the Bose L1 pro/con. thought it might go to interesting places if continued here to give those who have opinions on it an opportunity to chime in who may not see it on the Pa2x post.

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Miami Mo

May as well re post my reply on the other thread here...

I thought the Bose L1 sounded pretty weak...and it's MONO...
Wasn't it originally designed for the solo vocalist/guitarist...seems to be prominently featured in their promotions?

Does nothing for an arranger, IMO.

Give me two powered speakers in stereo any day.

Ian

Bose's idea of stereo (in this instance)is each musician having his own L1 - check the ads. One OMB using one L1 gives excellent fidelity, just not in stereo. The complaint from arranger players is that their "stereo grands" sound flat and have no presence. Duh, you're playing stereo sounds in mono.

MY listening experience with the L1 is that it's great, processed sound. Dynamics are compressed, but the sound itself is spread evenly throughout the venue. I don't hear explosive bass or growling mids. I think it has its place, but it isn't the end-all solution for everyone.

sound spread evenly is a double-edged sword. great in a concert hall: all seats equal opportunity. great in large outdoor venue so front sitters don't have to get blown away in order for those way off to hear. But a serious problem in smaller restaurant/bar venues or private parties or street fairs where those who don't want to hear full volume can't escape or modify by moving further away. and the description of the sound from most people i have spoken to(not musicians who use it) is that it sounds very clear, but lacks warmth. ------------------ Miami Mo [This message has been edited by keysvocalssax (edited 10-23-2007).]

[This message has been edited by keysvocalssax (edited 10-23-2007).]

You nailed it, Mo. Completely agree on the Bose. I hire a replacement occasionally for a restaurant job. He uses a Bose system, and people complain that they can't "get away" from the volume. Some patrons come to listen and some just want quiet background music. Good system for some applications-just not right for everything.


R.

[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 10-23-2007).]

Miami Mo mentioned the ONLY downside I have found to the L1. If you want to sit in a far corner and barely hear the music, you're out of luck. It disperses the sound so well that it covers all areas equally.
It can be set to sound as warm as you like. In actuality, I run mine mostly flat, with just a little boost on the low end. I e.q. from my keyboard, or mixer if I use one, but they are mostly flat also.
It is designed to be transparent, and it is. If you are used to a certain "coloring" of sound from the system you use, it will sound different. There is no muffling to cover boo-boos! However it can be totally equalized either from the remote or from a mixer.
I've had totally positive reviews from audiences and employers alike.

DonM

A discussion on the Bose is always an interesting exchange of view points, so here is my take on it, and which expands the post I made on the PA2x thread.
The L1 was designed to allow a performer to be easily heard anywhere in the venue, and it also allowed the speaker to be set up to give optimum performance with whatever the performer was playing, in addition the L1 can be placed behind the performer so as they can also hear what the audience hears.
With conventional speakers you also have to have monitor speakers for the performer, as in most cases the main speakers have to be set louder then the L1 to fill the venue and so have to be placed in front of the performer. (Having the main speakers behind the performer would just deafen them, and give them no idea of what the audience is hearing)
As most of you who have read the above will have noticed, a problem occurs when using a keyboard/Organ with the L1 because a keyboard/organ produces the sounds of multiple performers, and so the L1 can no longer be set up for individual performers. (This is why a single L1 sounds like a wind up gramophone horn (With a sock stuffed in it) when used with a keyboard)
Fortunately virtually all keyboards these days are now stereo which spreads the performers out, and so providing you have 2 L1s (Back to stereo again) you can set the EQs independently and so get a much better balance. The downside (There’s always 1) is that if you change to a different style of music you need to reset the EQ settings of both speakers to match. (Otherwise the Gramophone returns)
Incidentally if you look at the professional keyboard/organ players that use the L1s, (And there are boat loads out there whether it be at a Club, Concert Hall or Stadium etc) they always have a minimum of 2 L1s. (If more are required they always go up in even numbers)
L1s set up correctly (And adjusted during a performance) can give a superb quality of room filling sound that other speakers have great difficult of achieving, however it does require more input from the player.
As with all things, only the player can decide if the L1s are suitable for the venues that they perform at.
From the above, you can see that while the L1s can give a superb sound, they are not the Be All and End All that some people seem to think they are.
Hope you found my ramblings interesting

Bill

Very interesting, Bill. Your observations regarding the use of two L1's sheds a lot of light on the discussion. There are some that use one L1 and love it. Myself, I tend to agree with you and Mo.

"This is why a single L1 sounds like a wind up gramophone horn (With a sock stuffed in it) when used with a keyboard)

Bill, with all due respect, I don't want to get into an argument, but this is just not true. I personally set up two complete p.a. systems side by side.
One was two powered Barbettas. The other the L1. The keyboard was Tyros 2.
I a-b'd them intensely at all volumes. Two other musicians were with me. As good as the Barbettas are, the L1 sounded better and clearer. If you stand directly in front and between the Barbettas you can hear stereo effect. Get back at true listening distance and it goes away. Stand in front of one of them and you miss part of the sound because it's panned to the other side. There was no detectable degradation of the piano, or any other sound. As far as stereo "pinging" effects, you can only hear them in the optimum position anyway.
I've been using the L1 for more than two years with four or five different arrangers.
I make my living with my sound. I dumped a brand new Korg PA800 because it didn't sound good. (Yes I tried it with other p.a. systems than the L1, just in case.)
To say the L1 sounds bad with a keyboard is just uninformed. Every musician that comes in comes up to ask about the Bose, and tell me how great it sounds. They usually say something like "I wish I could afford one".
Well, I've found I can't afford not to have one. I've played small nursing homes and vast outdoor arenas with equal good results.
I just wanted to relate my personal experience with this system and take exception with such a sweeping generalization.
It seems the major critics of the L1 or usually people who do not own or use one.
Maybe they have tried one out in a store. Well when I first listened to one at Memphis Guitar Center, it sounded like absolute crap.
They didn't know how to work it, or even turn it on. They didn't even have the bass module cable engaged correctly, so it wasn't working. I left thinking how terrible the system was.
After hearing all the testimonials from people I respect, such as Uncle Dave and Gary Diamond, I ordered one with a 45-day return option, so there was no risk involved.
That was more than two years ago. The only reason I might consider parting with it is to get the updated version, as it is a few pounds lighter.
I won't be commenting more on this subject as it is all ground we've covered before, but just couldn't let that statement go unchallenged.

DonM

Excellent points Mo...I do restaurant gigs and you are right.

As far as "Clear without warmth"...it is an accurate description IMO.

I spent a whole day using one in the club where my friend gigged with it...I was recording a bunch of MIDI files for him...

He was using a 3k, and he had the L1 set up properly.

I couldn't warm up to it at all...guess it truly is a personal thing, because he was quite pleased with it.

Ian

The ONLY thing that ever gets settled with this discussion is the guys that DON'T like it, DON'T like it.
And they guys that DO like it, LOVE it!

As a wise old sage once said "that's why they make chocolate AND vanilla"

true enough, but it's not about settling anything, which will never happen, but just about illuminating certain aspects of a controversial piece of equipment from different perspectives. (yes i am getting paid by the size of the words i'm using)

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Miami Mo

What does "clear without warmth" really mean? And is it a legitimate critisism of the L1 sound?

First of all, whether it is a true analysis of the L1 sound depends on how the system is set-up, or EQed, but also on what your ears are accustumed to hearing... and what they MUST hear to be satisfied with the sound. There is much EQing that can be done with the many L1 presets..... BUT... there might be something missing, IMO, again, depending on what you need to hear.

The "without warmth" is the lack of lower-mids inherent with the L1. You may not agree, or even notice it, unless you do what I did.

I've used the L1 routinely for all sized venues for almost 2 years. Both my listeners and I have been very favorably impressed with the sound (and no lack of warmth).

About 6 months ago I decided to set up both the L1 and my Barbetta SE-32 in stereo for a medium sized (~250) dance venue. The Barbetta has a 15" speaker and has very good full range sound, especially strong in the lower mid range. It complimented the L1 sound beyond my expectations.

Only NOW, when I use the L1 by itself, am I aware of a somewhat "without warmth", and only because I've heard the difference. Still a great high-fidelity sound, IMO, that I would not want to be without. But balancing it with a good powered speaker like the Barbetta gives you a more powerful full-ranged sound, with nothing missing.

Glenn

The main thing to take from this, I would think (especially if you ARE looking for a new PA) is that 'opinions vary'.

This is definitely one purchase that I wouldn't recommend sight unseen (or sound unheard). Those that love it, love it, and those that don't, hate it. So, no clear consensus.

One thing I tend to take a look at is, what do the 'pros' use? By that, I don't mean us here... I mean pro PA companies, guys that make a living day in and out renting PA's for different venues. In general, there's a bunch of folk that do sound for different type acts and occasions. They need flexibility, they need volume (when needed) they need clarity, they need dependability.

So far, I have never seen a pro PA company provide an L1 system for any act. PERHAPS you can request one specifically, but I have NEVER seen a PA truck turn up with an L1 system for any kind of concert or club venue. That speaks volumes to me.

Bose have always trod their own path, sometimes successfully, sometimes not. For the VERY limited application that the L1 is designed for, and at the price point it comes in at, I have a sneaky feeling this one is not going to stand the test of time. I HAVE played through one, and my impression was that, if you want high quality, low volume 'background' type sound, with a high degree of coverage, it's lack of low mids makes it ideal (they are some of the 'body' and attention grabbing frequencies), but in a more forefront situation, you are starting to push it too hard for it to excel over more conventional setups.

Let's face it, guys.... if these things really WERE the next, greatest thing, a LOT of PA companies would already be using them. So far, not exactly what I have seen...

But to be realistic you don't see many pro pa companies show up with eons or most of the stuff we discuss here. At least not for the front end.
Well here again I am probably wrong I know some use them for small jobs we rent them for vocal only or recorded music type situations.



[This message has been edited by mikeathome1 (edited 10-23-2007).]

I've been using the L1 for nearly three years, ever since I heard UD play his in Philly. IMO, there is no system, Barbetta Sona 32C (which I previously used) and a host of others I've owned, that even get close. I've performed in small restaurants, gymnasiums, nite clubs, huge halls, big top tents, outdoor venues larger than a couple football fields, and nothing, absolutely nothing, gets remotely close. Stereo--no one hears it other than the performer.

Cheers,

Gary

I have 4 Bose double Bass L1 systems, that I have used for over 2 years now.

The only problem is that certain types of music or venues like that in your face sound that a conventional speaker/horn system gives.

But since using the Bose system I have only recieved compliments on the sound, the overall balance, and the consistent sound quality in every situation.

I do sell mackie, rcf, db technologies. Unless It's a rock band or a very paticluarlly large venue, I usually go with the Bose,

If anyone would like to talk about it please email or call me.
Frank

Aside from the Mono issue.....which I could live with if necessary....although some KBs handle the stereo phase issue better then others...For me it "wasn't the sound" at all....with some EQ'ing & if needed added second Sub I got it to where I could make it work.....but more of the personally aggravating time consuming 4pc setup and having to squeeze it all in to those tight covers with zippers over & over again besides all my other equipment,....remember this many times is 2 or 4 x a day....when you have to run to the next gig with 1 hr to spare.

Regarding using L1 system in bands, maybe it's a bad idea to mix L1s and conventional speakers anyway. The reason for L1's near equal spread of sound is that the density of sound energy that emanate from a (near) linear source (L1) decays slower than that coming from a (near) point source (conventional speaker). If its a surface (wall of sound) it would be even slower.

So if you have your guitar on L1 and drums on conventional speakers and balance the two to sound right closer to the set up, the guitar will be more prominent at far (because guitar from L1 is nearly equally spread and drums from conventional speakers die down faster). If you balanced so it would sound right at far, the drums could be more prominent at close distance.

Shiral

i've never used a stereo setup except for the onboard speakers. is what Gary is saying true?

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Miami Mo

Yes it is true, there is a small area directly in the middle between the left and right speakers that the crowd would actually hear the stereo imaging, you would be better of giving a mono signal so everyone can hear everything all the time in all positions.

the way the L1 does stereo is by placement. the guitar player would be stage left the keyboard player would be stage right, and its by location is where you get the simulated type stereo

so then why are so many so hot for stereo? it's really so much more quality-sounding to the performer? or just an effect preference? it would seem to have more disadvantages than advantages if only the performer, or a very small slice of the audience, can gain from the effect..and i've never seen a larger audience ever seem disappointed by a great performance because they didn't get the 'stereo effect'. if you use stereo with spread speakers one side or the other of the room will get less of the full sound. what's so "dull" or "flat" about mono in live performance? i never detected any of that when listening live. is it possible the "stereo effect" to the performer is something like an addiction to that effect..not really making the music quantitatively better? or am i missing something here?

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Miami Mo

When using stereo, you shouldn't pan the instruments in extreme amounts...just a little goes a long way at broadening the sound whilst still keeping it contained.

There is still a perceived depth, and two speakers naturally will have a bigger sound.

As for the second part of your post, to get the effect you describe, each player would need his own L1.

Also, effects, like stereo delays and chorus don't really cut it on the L1...Leslie sims are really bland as well.

But, the Bose does work well for some people....I just wouldn't count myself as one of them.

Ian

Yes I completely agree with not panning hard left or right,

As for the Bose, I actually use not as the way they were intended,

I set up a left and right Bose, and set them up stereo, but because of the L1 coverage behavior, I have a larger stereo sweet spot.

even being completely on the left side the bleed over from the right gives you the complete sound.

I've only heard the system set up once, in a GC in Dayton, OH and it seems to sound awfully good, even without a sub.

Interesting thread to read...Its not for me at this time, but down the road, it may very well be...

Yep...I bet it does sound great...but using two L1s is a bit expensive for most players...don't you agree?

Ian

Stereo can only be heard by those individuals positioned within an equalateral triangular area between the speakers. Essentially, if you have two speakers spaced 20-feet apart, the full stereo effect would be best for the person directly between those two speakers. A person standing 20 feet in front of the speakers would be on the edge of mono. People situated to the left or right of the stereo speakers would overwhelmingly hear the channel fired through that speaker.

The Bose L1 array (tower) contains 24 speakers, and because of the vertical stack, which by the way, is nothing new, the falloff is negligible.

Setup time, at least for me, is about 12 minutes at most. And, yesterday I had to get to the next job quickly, I was able to tear down and have everything loaded on the rock & roller in just under 10 minutes.

One thing, however, that I must stress. Every keyboard is different when it comes to how it is fired through a sound system, and every sound system responds differently as well. It's important to carefully tune both your keyboard and sound system to get the best results. And, of course, this will vary with venue configurations. Nothing, absolutely nothing, is etched in stone when it comes to sound systems. If this were the case, we would all own the same sound system and keyboard as well.

Cheers,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

Bill.....the Bose with out a sub may be good for what it was designed for solo acoustic, solo instrumentation, CD music etc . But for full featured sound of an arranger KB you will need 1 or 2 Subs for sure to bring the bottom end into play.....

Just my two cents. I purchased an L1 after hearing Gary on a job and testing it at his home for a couple of hours.
However after three months of working with it on the job tweeking it at home with mixers and without mixers compareing it to my powered Crates,s I traded it in for a back up T2. I just could not get the sound the way I wanted with my T2. Like I said just my ywo cents

Jim

Stereo, for those of you with home systems (got those? ) can easily be shown to be effective in a very wide area of a room. In fact, the only places that stereo is NOT heard is when you are right next and to the side of one of the speakers.

Now, before you all get in a tizzy, let me point out that PERFECT stereo IS only perceived in the 'sweet spot' equidistant from the speakers. But it's effects can be heard in most areas of the room to one degree or another. Don't believe me...? Here's a simple test you can do.

Put on a CD in stereo on your home speakers. Move about the room. Get a feel for the soundfield. Does it collapse just because you are not in the sweet spot? No... it changes, but it doesn't collapse to mono anywhere in the room. In fact, it doesn't collapse to mono even when you are right next to one of the speakers, just the volume from one side overwhelms the other, so you are not hearing mono, just one side of the stereo.

Want a more elaborate demo? Use your computer to rip the track you just listened to, and collapse it to mono (select 'export' as a mono 16/44 .wav). Burn that and the stereo version to an audio disk. Play the mono version first. Stand ANYWHERE in the room (except for right next to one of the speakers). Get used to the sound. Now listen when the stereo version comes on. I guarantee that you WILL hear a difference, and a sense of space and openness that you didn't hear in the mono cut.

Think about it for a minute... if the ONLY spot you could hear stereo from was the 'sweet spot', stereo would never have become as popular as it has. Just because it's not PERFECT doesn't mean that it can't be perceived.

For the live arranger performer, stereo gives the audience the sonic impression that the 'band' has a three dimensionality about it, just like they would get from a real band. Even if they had a mono PA, the sounds of the live instruments always adds a stereo perspective - drums in the middle, bass to one side, guitar to the other, etc., unless in the largest of rooms, towards the back.

So for those of us that strive to achieve the closest to a 'real' band as we can, stereo speaker systems add back just one MORE degree of realism. And it CAN be heard a LOT more than some say. Test it for yourself before you jump on the 'stereo can't be heard by most of the audience' bandwagon...

I guess stereo would make a big difference to those who wanted their full acc canned backgrounds to sound more realistic, and add to their appeal as "one-man-bands". For those who use mostly kb alone, or w/drum track, or with bass/drum tracks, or play duo/trio gigs without using full acc backgrounds, stereo may be a marginally nice effect, but would hardly make a significant difference in the quality of the performance and the enjoyment of the audience.

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Miami Mo

Amazing how popular stereo has become this last 60 years or so, considering that it adds so little 'significant difference in the quality of the performance and the enjoyment of the audience'...

Diki,

I agree with your hypothesis for stereo reproduction in a small room. However, the same configuration in a large hall will not work--I've tried it many times, and with really high quality gear.

As for it's popularity over these many decades, I sincerely believe the reason behind this is because of its unique sounds. Somewhere about 1960 I purchased a Motorola stereo that cost about $300, which at the time was a couple months pay. Then I purchased some records, which I still have, recorded by Ferante and Tischer (spelling), and a few other artists, folks that provided the most incredible piano performances I've heard at any time in my life. The stereo effects they used were fantastic, far beyond anything I could have imagined. I loved they way they ping-ponged the sound during the song "Flight Of The Bumble Bee." It was just incredible. That said, they could have only achieved this effect while playing live with two pianos spaced about 50 feet apart.

Most of the larger bands I heard, and one that comes immediately to mind is The Hubcaps , perform with a vast array of speakers, and it's all in mono--not stereo. Their sax player plays through a mic that is fired through a mixer, then the sound comes out of all their speakers at the same time. Same with the guitars, keyboards, trumpets, singers, etc.. You would think that if stereo was beneficial to their performances, which are quite expensive, they would be using it in a heartbeat. I've seen their system, talked with their soundman, been to three of their performances, and they really rock the house with a MONO system.

Jimsax's main issue with his Bose L1 was the pianos. He just didn't like the way they sounded, even when I tuned the system for him and made it sound exactly like his other system's piano. It's not for everyone, but then again, no system is.

Cheers,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

best comeback you can muster? stereo in a home audio is much different from stereo added to a performance that's already live. do people play carnegie hall for the stereo effect? and a lot of things have become popular that are inferior-sounding: digitial is inferior to analog tape, good LP played on a great turntable superior to CD. VHS was inferior to betamax...etc etc..

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Miami Mo

Politest one I could Mo...

How could I have been so stupid as to hold a contrary opinion to you? You have your OPINION, so it must be right...

Yes, in VERY large halls, towards the back, you can't tell stereo from mono. You play those, much of the time? Didn't think so...

Carnegie Hall was designed as an acoustic venue. No PA's at all. Sometimes they are added nowadays, but a large proportion of the music played there has no PA at all. But every single recording from the 50's onwards has been recorded in stereo. Why capture it, if it is so unnecessary?

Because it has been discovered that people like a sense of sonic spaciousness to what they listen to, to recreate the experience of listening to MULTIPLE people play in an acoustic environment. We, with our arrangers (and don't kid yourselves, ONE auto track is as much a cop out as a whole backing) try to sound like a live performance (or, some of us, at least!), and to achieve that, the drums, the bass, whatever you DO use sounds better if it occupies the same sonic space as a real one.

In all but the largest, liveliest rooms, stereo sounds different to mono. MANY of us here like the sound of it, and our audiences do too (not to mention that the arranger's stereo sounds are designed to be used that way)... Forgive us for not agreeing with your opinion....

diki, i don't understand why you feel I am trying to jam my opinion down anyone's throat..because clearly i am not..but since that is what you always try to do, then it must seem that when anyone says anything that does not meet YOUR opinion, a snide long-winded reply is called for, a cannonade, a broadside,etc. and your opinion can jump from one side of a fence to the other depending on the target that angers you on any particular day. weren't you the guy who has been browbeating everyone about how they should spend more time on their performance and not worry so much about the latest equipment? apparently you don't appreciate it when i hold somewhat the SAME position as you, (if not as dogmatically,) so now you are all for the absolutely essential benefits of stereo p.a.'s. Go back to what i wrote that set you off so..all i was saying was agreeing with you about making the strict "arranger-play"more realistic, and then agreeing with you that if you have no great need fro that effect, the quality of your performance is much more important, and any stereo effect a minor benefit in comparison. If you are going to attack me when I AGREE with you, what are you going to do, have APOPLEXY if i disagree??

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Miami Mo

Well, let's just say that, if that is you AGREEING with me, no wonder you keep butting heads with so many...!

Stereo PA's been around several decades. This isn't me proposing the latest and greatest. And I honestly don't care whether anyone else uses stereo or not. But when blanket statements like "Stereo--no one hears it other than the performer" and "Stereo can only be heard by those individuals positioned within an equalateral triangular area between the speakers" are made, I think a differing opinion, and a way to FACT check it are in order.

It's pretty easy to check... Use your arranger's mono out into one speaker. Kick off the demo. Walk to the middle, then back of the room. Now hook it up to two speakers in stereo, and repeat. You ARE going to hear a difference...

Whether you want to use it, is up to you, but (others) saying that it does not exist is simply not true. Of course, Mo, this is me agreeing with you, eh?

I'M NOT the one who made those statements, in fact i asked if they were true. I'm not aware that i have "butted heads" with so many..i can barely count the head-buuts other than with you, and not only is it you that is the head-butter, you are the champ on SZ of head-butting. I drew a conclusion from what i read here that led me to conclude that stereo is much more than those those deny its existence say it is, but that in many ways it is not all that important as others make it out to be. That's an opinion that can't be empirically proven or unproven, it's my take from my point of view. Why you have such a violent reaction to it says more about you than i have ever said. I hardly pretend to be an expert, i have always said here that my purpose is to learn and to contribute what i can from what i know. I would really appreciate it if you would please BACK OFF!

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Miami Mo

I truly believe that stereo can make a big difference in large rooms too..As I mentioned earlier a 180 degree audience makes stereo tough..
But there are large venues that stereo definitely works..There are rooms we play..on stage with speakers 20-25 feet apart and a 100 feet deep room..the audience is all in front of us...You will hear the movement of the drums and other instruments as well as stereo effects...It may get reduced but not eliminated...When I have the choice ..it is always stereo..
Also mentioned was the Carnegie hall and orchestras..a natural stereo field..You will hear the different sections...that is stereo..location of different instrument groups with in a stereo field..

I've said it before and I'll say it again. For some reason, this forum tends to be too much like a pool hall. There are the regular sharks who hang out and anyone else showing up is challenged and put down. Lots of people have left or frequent other places becuase of the friction on here.

What's saddest is that all any of us really SHOULD strive to get out of this board is the key to being better at what we do with our keyboards, whether they are Rolands, Yammaha's, or Casio's.

I'll agree technology has done a lot of things to improve music production. In contrast, we need to celebrate the technology and share ideas on how to use it creatively to keep "live" music alive for another 10 years.

But when it comes to becoming argumentative, we should just calm down and remember that we each choose the roads we go down and (if we focus on the road we're on) any one of them can lead us to success (as opposed to failure).

R/I

I love that when the drums roll across the stage between the speakers. Or when the EFX like on Billy Idol's "Mony Mony" when the jet airplane effect cruises back & forth awesome stereo FX!

picture removed

Stereo or mono? Who would benefit from the stereo in this setup?

[This message has been edited by mikeathome1 (edited 10-28-2007).]

The poor suckers that pay the highest prices for the center seats get ripped off big time. They have a concentration of guitar amps in their faces. Bose on stage would be perfect...then use side fills for the house if needed. No place is too big to benifit from the new approach to better coverage.

Then why aren't Bose used more often? It's not like they're that new.

Most of these groups rent all their systems, so why aren't they renting Bose?

Must be a reason.




[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-25-2007).]

I think this is the principal upon which the Bose was created just much larger.


[This message has been edited by mikeathome1 (edited 10-25-2007).]

It's quite possible that most outfits that rent systems also sell systems. GC sells Bose, but to my knowledge they do not rent anything. Bose, obviously, does not rent their equipment out as well. Most of the equipment that I've seen that was rented was really beat up badly. That also may have some bearing on this.

Many years ago, when I was working for a local company and installing sound systems in large halls, churches, factories, hospitals, etc.., the top of the line was Executone. To my knowledge they were among the first to use vertical arrays of speakers. They were called "Sound Columns" and usually measured 6 to 12 feet in length and housed relatively small, tightly-packed, speakers spaced about 2 inches apart throughout the entire colum. The colums were about six inches wide and six inches deep. All were constructed of wood and heavy as hell.

Some of the colums were arched and placed in the corners of ceilings in large cathedrials and churches. Essentially, the speakers were all facing downward and the coverage was pretty much equal throughout the venue. In some of the extremely large cathedrials up to 10 sound colums were used. And, because I was the skinny kid on the installation crew I was sent into the ceilings to drag the wires through to the main amp, which usually ranged from 500 to 1,500 watts.

A few months ago, at my grandson's christening, I noticed there were Bose colums mounted on the church walls. This is a huge church, one that could easily seat 600 people. If I recall correctly, there were two colums on each side of the pulpit, spaced about 40 feet apart. The sound coverage was incredible, very clear, distinct and no matter where you were in the room the volume was the same.

I sincerely believe that you will be seeing more Bose L1 type systems used in the not too distant future, especially for larger house systems. Time will tell.

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

To be fair, Bose does make pro audio systems that many pro touring acts use for mid size venues. http://tiny.pl/1zqx
Not to mention permanent installs.
I saw Disney on Ice a few years ago at good size auditorium that is also used for pro hockey, and Disney was using Bose speakers hanging from the ceiling.
The L1 personal amplification system, I believe is a way to take that technology and make it portable.

For a start off, let us not pretend that we play venues as large as that picture on any regular basis. Let us also not pretend that in small and even some medium sized rooms, the musician's own rigs (bass, guitar and drums, at least) contribute a large proportion of the sound that you hear, and the PA is used primarily for vocal reinforcement, and fill-in jobs. As such, it doesn't need to be in stereo for the audience to already hear stereo. After all, the musicians are spread quite widely.

And, what is the purpose of stereo? Let's think about that for a second...

Stereo was invented to allow those that were playing back music (initially, tape, then records, then radio) to hear the same effect as if they were in the hall, listening to the music. the sense that different players were in different physical locations, the ability to close your eyes and imagine that you were in the hall, listening to the performance.

Now step forward 50 years or more. We now have keyboards that essentially ARE playback devices for music (no matter whether our input is to a greater or lesser degree). And our audiences, although they THINK they are present at a 'live' performance, are almost in the same situation of listening to a recording. We play what we play on TOP of that recording.

Now, to increase the realism of the 'liveness' of that performance, using a stereo PA to add back those spacial cues that they would normally hear with a live band is quite effective. The real trick is not to exaggerate it... I rarely ever pan past ten to two o'clock, so those close to the left or right speakers don't miss an entire part, but the effects are ALWAYS wide. This can add a sense of spaciousness to the music in a small venue.

Another thing to take into account is NOT to space your speakers too widely. Most arranger default drumkits are panned fairly widely in the first place, and it is quite a job to go into every style you have and pan them back closer to the center, so placing the speakers no wider than they HAVE to be helps a lot, there.

I think the real trick is to not try and create a huge wide wall of sound, with you lost in the middle of it, but to keep them close, and just provide a virtual soundstage that recreates the stereo cues your audience would hear if you HAD a real band with you. You wouldn't want your bass player 30 feet away, or your drummer's kit to be 20 feet wide... Keep them in close, and keep things real.

I simply feel that mono, except for those few that ARE at the back of a big room or the extreme sides, is LESS realistic than well placed stereo.

JMO, yada yada yada....

I agree to a certain extent. If it was a concert and people were sitting listening attentively. Stereo.
In my living room, car, mp3 player, stereo.
For a party, bar or restaurant where people are moving about, eating, talking, dancing socializing, being entertained I'll never be convinced that it matters.
I've never heard of anyone complain about the lack of stereo at their event.
So my conclusion, is stereo sweet? Sure is!
When someone calls to book an event do they ask is it stereo?

Oh, I agree that it doesn't matter... You can get by without it.

Just as well as you can get by without a modern arranger, and a modern PA, and a decent voice. Plenty of players managing to do that. But would you WANT to?

Let's face it, few of us are really doing all we do because the audience hears it, or recognizes it's worth. We do it for the few that DO recognize it. And we do it for ourselves, because if WE are not happy, how can we make our audience believe we are?

Having grown up playing live music all my life, I find mono to be the most unnatural sound ever. You NEVER hear mono in the real world, there is always SOME kind of spacial cue and spread to the sound. Listening to mono while I play only accentuates for me the realization that I AM playing with a machine, and anything I can do to help dispel that impression makes me a happier player...

But I HAVE played through many mono PA's, and know perfectly well that you CAN do it, and even that few of your audience cares. But I try to play for the few that DO, and for myself. And other than carrying around two speakers (and even most of us that perform in mono do that), it involves no more equipment than being in mono. So.... why not?

ok already, i'm gonna try it!!

The rock band I play with uses 2 L1 systems. You all do know that Bose doesn't actually market the L1 as a PA system even though it works fine in that role? We are running the L1s out in front of the band with a 15" JBL sub woofer because we are running an electronic drum kit through the system at a volume level you'd expect from a rock band. We are running the drum kit in stereo into the 2 L1s.

Nigel those Tom Toms must sound awesome In Stereo I would assume they are panned hard L/R.

Yes I am sure they are but I never get to hear them myself cos I'm always behind the towers when the drums are playing. The drummer has a powered JBL cabinet on stage for our drum monitor.

Once we tried putting the towers behind us on stage. While it worked fine, having the vocals that loud on the stage messed with our instrumental stage balance so we went back to putting them out front and using conventional monitors.

But it still goes to show that the L1 system is awesome even with higher volume musical acts. They are capable of handling AC/DC covers as well as lower level dinner music. They fill the room so much better than the conventional PA we used to use. And apart from the vocals and drums we also sometimes mix in a little of the 2 electric guitars and keyboard just to reinforce the instrument balance through the room.


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 10-26-2007).]

Thanx Nigel.....
I agree the Bose PAS in the right application is definitly a very efficient sound system reinforcement for sure....
I'm glad its working out for you & your band. I also understand the behind you placement vs front of the house as getting a bit musically confusing with multiple players....anyway enjoy!!

I had the rare opportunity to meet with the leader of an 18-piece band today, a person that I would think would be an expert on this subject. He is highly trained, as are all of his musicians. They perform throughout the southeast, primarily in North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, parts of Virginia and northern Florida. They primarily perform Glenn Miller type music, and all of their bend members are seated in rows similar to the Glenn Miller Orchestra.

Each musician has his and her own mic, the vocalist has her own mic, and even the drums and piano are fed through mics. Now, we're talking 18 pieces, plus a female vocalist, saxes, trombones, trumpets, an accoustic piano and an upright bass. Everything is fired through a monster mixing board, then into a 4,500-watt PA system that's MONO! We talked about stereo and his first statement was "Who in the hell would hear it? If we fired all those instruments through a stereo system it would not only be a nightmare for the guy running the mixing board, but additionally, can you imagine what we would sound like if only have the instruments came out of half the speakers on one side of a 200-foot stage, and the other half came out of the speakers on the other side?"

He checked out my L1 and asked the price. When I told him he said that was fairly inexpensive, especially considering how crisp and clear everything sounded. Then when I told him it was never turned up more than 25 percent of max volume, he said "I'm calling Bose first thing Monday morning."

BTW: He had an arranger keyboard player for a couple years, but the keyboard guy quit because he was only using the keyboard as a piano and vibes most of the time. He said he was really impressed with the technical strides that keyboards have made in the past few years, and that he envisioned they would play a larger role in big band music in the ensuing years.

Cheers,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

[This message has been edited by travlin'easy (edited 10-26-2007).]

Gary,

Why would the mixing board have to be panned in extremes as you seem to imply?

A great stereo image could be easily produced by judicious panning and therefore give the audience a much more substantial and authentic sound.

Ian

I don't recall Glenn Miller even NEEDING a PA other than to reinforce the singers and the bass and piano a bit... Why do we all of a sudden need thousands of watts for music that never needed it in it's heyday? Are we all so much deafer now?! Are the dancehalls THAT much bigger? Glenn Miller probably played Carnegie Hall (if not, many others like Paul Whitehead DID). How many watts do you think HE used?

Please also don't forget that, even if the PA is in mono, the audience WILL hear positional cues from the spread of the musicians themselves. I am pretty sure that, no matter HOW many watts their PA is, for a big band gig it won't be turned up to the point where you CAN'T hear the musicians themselves..!

This is where large ensembles, and arrangers that try to SOUND like large ensembles differ. Subtle positioning cues help reinforce the illusion that there IS an ensemble up there, when in reality, it is just us, and our arrangers. A real ensemble even with a mono PA will still sound stereo, but a mono arranger will sound COMPLETELY mono, something that NO live band ever will.

Once again, JMO, yada yada yada.

Diki,

I attend concerts by the Glenn Miller Orchestra, Dorsy Brothers Orchestra and other big bands every year. I pay top dollars for the best seats in the house, and they DO NOT use a stereo sound system. They performed at the Wiliam Amoss Theater, which seats approximately 1,000 people, and there were several hundred standing in the rear of the theater. It's an incredible performance, one that is almost beyond description.

If you have the opportunity, and I believe they do come to your part of the world, make a concerted effort to attend one or more of the concerts. Not only will you learn a lot, but you'll get to hear some of the best performers in the world. Keep in mind that only the band leader of the Glenn Miller Orchestra is the only living orriginal member of the band, but he can play a trumpet better than anyone I've ever heard. There are just a couple of the Dorsey Brothers orriginal members still alive, but they still have more talent than anyone can imagine. Most of the other performers are relatively young, highly trained, and extremely talented.

Ian,

When you have the opportunity, create a good midi file using your PSR-S900, one that has lots of stereo components. Then fire the keyboard through a stereo mixer with speakers spaced about 10 feet on either side of the keyboard in a large room. Pan the parts the way you described, walk throughout the room while the midi file is playing, then post the midi file and post a report of your findings. I know you are a very talented musician, and your technical knowledge is excellent. I would be very interested in hearing both the midi file, plus reading your report about the stereo separation.

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

There is one thing everyone is forgetting, 99% of the audience can see, and therefore providing there is a wall of Mono sound, the brain will take its positioning cues from the eyes, however if a blind person attends, then all they hear is a wall of sound, as there are No aural cues as to where the individual instruments are.
With an Arranger, All your audience are essentially blind, (There are no visual cues for the brain to assimilate) and therefore to give the impression of a live band the ear/brain needs the stereo effect to get the aural cues.
BTW if you have real brass instruments on the left and real strings on the right, then as you walk to the left the strings will get quieter, and vice versa, consequently unless you have a stereo speaker system, arranger playing just doesn’t sound real.
Another way to look at things

Bill

Gary,

There are midi files of my music on SVP World as well as YPKO, most with MP3, some done on the S900, and some on my old 3k(which I still have) and these were made using my "work" set-ups for panning...you visit there quite often...have a listen...play one through your L1...listen to how badly it handles the stereo piano...remember, I do all instrumental music, and the piano is a sound I use very often .

I am more than content with my system's performance in stereo...speakers are 8 feet apart for my usual setup, and I always fire off a midi file to do a sound check whilst walking around the room...it sounds great...I would never go back to mono.

Gary, and I should preface this by saying I mean this with the utmost respect, perhaps we hear things differently? Is your hearing equally the same for both ears, or do you have any kind of hearing impairment that may make things sound different?

I thought you mentioned (on another forum)that you had hearing issues...maybe that might make a difference in your perception?

Just a thought.

Again, I must stress, that I do not pan my instruments hard left or right, and in my musical situations, stereo has a much better sound than mono.

Gary, believe me, I tried the Bose L1 more than once, and for extended periods each time, and if it would have done for me what several people claim it does, I would have one...no kidding.

I thought the concept was promising, but unfortunately, to get it to sound remotely close to the stereo system I am using, I would need to buy two of them...much too much money for me....and way too much set-up hassles.

I'll be stickin' with stereo, thank you very much.

All the best,

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-27-2007).]

Ian,

My hearing impairment is from tinitus, which is a constant ringing sound. It has nothing to do with the volume or quality of sound heard in both ears. The tinitus damage was caused when I was an 18-year-old kid in the U.S. Navy. I was a first loader on a 3-inch 50 dual, anti-aircraft gun, slamming 60-pound shells into the revolving hopper of one of the barrels. When the gun went off the breech was just a couple feet from where we were positioned and the explosion was deafening. The same damage has been reported in the medical journals about youngsters who allowed themselves to be exposed to loud music at rock concerts. My ENT doctor told me that most folks over age 50 have tinitus to some degree, but we learn to compensate for it, often without knowing the malady is present.

Now, back to the Bose. I've always said that the Bose L1 is not for everyone. And, if you recall I said the Yamaha Grand Piano sounded somewhat thin because of its stereo sampling process. Because of this, I created, and later posted, a grand piano voice to be used with the Bose L1, and to date there have been several thousand downloads of that voice. It was the only voice that had those problems, and because we all tend to use the piano voice routinely, I created the voice in mono.

The other thing I have always contended with any sound system, stereo, mono, etc.. was to purchase it from a retailer that has a liberal return policy. Then, if you don't like what you hear, return it for a full refund. Some retailers want to issue you credit or charge a restocking fee for returned items, even it they are in orriginal packing and are in perfect (new) condition. The return policy with Bose is among the best--45 days--no questions asked, full refund.

Cheers,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

Gary,

I was lucky...one of my band-mate's father was an "ear doctor", and I got into using earplugs at the outset of playing and consequently saved my hearing.

I tried your piano sound...good, if a bit on the strong side(loud) but still didn't sound exactly right to me.

Bose make a good product with the L1, I agree, but as you say, they aren't for everybody.

Ian

Russ, I was kind of referring to the Glenn Miller Orch. back when Glenn Miller WAS playing with them. Just a kind of comment on why anyone would WANT to use 4,500 watts on an acoustic big band... Glen played venues at least as big in his heyday, and somehow managed without a wall of PA, whether mono OR stereo!

I guess people nowadays just aren't prepared to shut up and listen to a performance until it is so loud they have no choice...

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Travlin' Easy

[This message has been edited by travlin'easy (edited 10-27-2007).]

Just because bands once used no sound reinforcement doesn't mean that they necessarily had a good balance between instruments. For example the electric guitar was invented for this very reason. For years guitar parts were drowned out by drums and horns but with acoustic guitars there was no solution to this. Guitar players simply had to accept they weren't going to be heard much in a big band environment. The electric guitar changed this and then Charlie Christian became a prominent guitar player in Benny Goodman's band. Until then the only way a solo guitar player could be heard was to play in the sort of lineup that wouldn't drown him out eg. Django Reinhardt who played just with other acoustic guitarists, violin and double bass. Also vocalists did use microphones and PA systems even back then.

But don't assume that just because bands years ago lacked sound reinforcement that everything was peachy. That wasn't necessarily the case. I really think that if Glenn was alive today he would choose to use some sort of reinforcement to fine tune the balance that he wanted to hear.


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 10-28-2007).]

Every instrument in TODAY'S Glenn Miller Orchestra is mic'd! This includes the bass, piano, brass, and vocalists. And, if you look carefully at the photo, you'll see a mic sitting on a stand that is down low--that one was used for the instrumental solos--even back then.

Gary

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Travlin' Easy