Yeah, it's a gray area, for sure. I'd hate to be a writer or software developer in these times of "fine lines".
I miss the days when I believed that things were either right or wrong - period. Too many questions today ..... or maybe not?
Maybe it really IS as simple as it seems.
We all cheat alot - admit it. From copying cassette tapes to selling CD's of "cover" tunes at performances. If you want to split hairs - there are PLENTY to split.
In the end ...... only YOU have to deal with your actions. Be prepared to accept the consequences.... no matter what you do.
I just think it's silly to complain about something that we all KNOW is wrong.

In the past, copyright holders have shut down sites without warning. If I remember right, they had the computers of a lyrics server confiscated. In this case, Yamaha is giving us time to download all existing styles before removing them from the web.

Clearly Yamaha invests time and money in creating and compiling styles. Even a phone book can be copyrighted, so no matter how derivative Yamaha styles are, they "might" be copyrightable. Certainly, 3rd parties who make and sell custom styles would support the copyrightability of styles in general.

Posting Yamaha styles on a Yahoo site means that Yahoo is making money (in advertising revenue) off of Yamaha styles, while Yamaha makes nothing. I don't think this is fair.

I think a good solution would be to redirect the energy now spent on a losing cause toward urging Yamaha to post on its own site styles of discontinued models. This would be in everyone's interest. Yamaha would get more site traffic and good will, while customers would be able to transfer their favorite styles to their new Yamaha keyboards.

I would totally agree with this. The fact is that Yamaha has not done this, and if they plan to, they have kept it a secret.
They should have a solution in mind before creating such a problem.
I am totally disenchanted with Yamaha because of this, but more because of the upgrade situation, on which I have started a new thread.
DonM

Someone stated that this move was generated because of "downward sales" of Yamaha poroducts . There os some truth to this matter . Having sold Yamaha products on a retail level for the last 10 years . The last 2 to 3 years has to be Yamaha 's worst for new product line .
#1. In professional keyboards Yamaha just introduced the Motif keyboards 6 months ago . Yamaha was and still is losing to Korg triton type keyboards over the past 3 years . Now that Korg has introduced the Triton LE version , Yamaha will have to adjust the price points ( IMO) on the Motif keyboards . Yamaha currently does not have a $1100.00 workstation to offer . Korg does .
The PSR9000 and 9000pro did not generate the turn over Yamaha had hoped . The PSR740 + 640 did not do well . PSRGX76 has been Yamaha's best selling consumer product .
Yamaha is just not getting it right IMO .
THE PSR2000 + 1000 are a good start for Yamaha to get an edge . dano

I respect your opinions Dave and always have, but I will end my participation in this discussion by saying that for ME, I respectfully disagree with your assessment that this is doing something that " we all know is wrong" . I don't see it that way AT ALL.. period !! Think about it for a second.. I NEVER recall being asked to
pay a royalty fee for performing ( NOT recording or selling a CD copy of a cover tune ..just performing ) a copywritten " cover " tune when I was performing in a band, or being told that I cannot perform so and so's song ... has anyone else had this experience ? I made good money doing it too. Was it wrong ? hmmmm.. Songs are copywritten too...or is that different ? I've never made a dime on any of these styles by the way.
Naturally, many people will say " oh that's different "...Ok is it really ? Maybe it is since once I play the song it's gone ...vanished into the air...not recorded..while the copied styles are perpetually there. Then again..maybe not. But why is it really different? because Yamaha says so ?

Maybe we would like things to be black and white and we'd like the "days" to return when they were, but I'm not so sure that is possible. I think black and white fades a bit into grey and maybe it has always been this way for thinking people, as part of the process of our minds expanding and contemplating more and more complex thoughts as we go through life. Besides, when we were younger, the pressure of setting the standard wasn't really upon us as much as it is later in life, was it? I don't think the times we live in have much to do with it at all, but hey that's just my opinion on it.

I know from copywrite issues in the music business that are supposedly designed to protect the artists but really always seem to instead serve the interests of the big record labels. I don't wanna even go there.. That's fodder for another forum.

I will end my participation in this discussion Uncle Dave and all by saying that I'll respect your opinions always, but please don't tell me that I KNOW I'm wrong ..If you think that is the case..that is fine, you're entitled to that opinion, and I'll respect your opinion as always..but that doesn't make it my reality.

Dano..

I think that maybe..just maybe.. Yamaha has just given that "edge " away.

Cliff,

Yahoo tells us that they are an advertising supported service. You'll see that quite often when you read a message posted on their site. Is yahoo getting any revenue from Yamaha as a direct result of the groups that discuss and in many cases promote and advertise their products ? I am curious. I wonder how much they pay Nigel for being mentioned on this forum ? " Fair " can be a subjective term I think.


"Korg" AJ




[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 01-30-2002).]

Just a note to Don Mason and Blueszplayer:
I believe Yamaha owns Korg. And if this is
still so, Korg may soon follow Yamaha in this
new crappy policy.
My two cents: I was very close to buying a
Yamaha PSR-550, and one of it's best attributes was the wealth of free PSR styles available on the web. Yamaha has now changed
my mind.

Would like to see an attorneys view on this subject. What kind of legal actions could yamaha actually take to enforce this issue.

I understand that you could copyright the original styles. I doubt though that those websites/newsgroups distribute the original yamaha styles, since most people allready have those in their keyboards. Who is going to decide how much a style must be modified to call it your own?

Do all people that play yamaha boards professional have to pay a portion of their fee to yamaha? Does a carpenter do that with the manufacturer of his hammer? If styles are copyrighted and can not be distributed, what about sounds and samples?

Just thinking out loud.


In my opinion this is a bad mistake from yamaha. Do they realy think they improve their market doing this? I know GEM sells dedicated disks with sounds and styles, but i never have seen anything like that form yamaha. They inly effect will be that more and more people will not buy yamaha anymore.
(I personally have never liked them anyhow, to "plastic")

[This message has been edited by arnothijssen (edited 01-30-2002).]

Actually, what they are objecting to is the posting for public download of original, unedited Yamaha styles.
I can almost see their point IF they make them available on their own site, either free or for a nominal fee.
DonM

Short response: SCREW YAMAHA.
Every yammer I've ever encountered has been a pain to navigate, and the generally cheesy intros, outros and boring 4-bar patterns turn me off.

I have a mixed set of feelings on this subject, and, hence, I was trying to stay quiet. However, after reading two pages of postings, I feel compelled to put in my two cents' worth.

I own a Roland G1000, which came with a ZIP disk with some 400 styles in addition to the 128 in the ROM of the keyboard. Although most are regurgitated styles from older Roland instruments, some are quite useful. When Roland had sold me the instrument, it has also implicitely granted me the right to use their styles.

Like most people in this forum, I am always interested in hearing and trying other styles. However, at the end of the day, there is only 4 or 5 non-roland styles which I use in my preformances (call me unimaginative). Although I happened to obtain these from friends, I would be happy to pay a reasonable amount to their creator. While I can see the rationale for paying for the styles used in paid performances, it is important to me to be able to try styles (not just listen to them) before deciding to use them in performances or not.

I would have no problem purchasing useful styles from Yamaha or anyone else, provided I could try them before buying. What bother me more is the possibility of music publishers coming after all of us who perform (for money) for a piece of it.

Regards