Guess ya can't argue with success !
I've been around the KB horn & I'm happy right back where I started.....Yamaha

I started out in 1964 with a yamaha 250 Motorcycle and now in 2006 have a Yam 9000 and a tyros 2
Is this evolution?
Bebop

I play Yamaha wind instruments too!

.... too bad technics bailed out ... I may have to go yammie someday ....
t.

BEBOP: how does the psr9000 compare to the tyros 2 ??..i ask as i still refuse to move from my 9k because nothing yet impresses me on any latest releases..

That still leaves a bad taste in my mouth Tony...I wonder what the real reason was that they stopped producing KB's....wioth such a big fan base & pretty dam good inovative KB's also. My fav was always the 5k.

no, yamaha has not completely took over the other manufacturer, i don t think it will ever do that.
roland, korg, ketron, etc has their own buyers and dedicated users which won't drop their favorite company that easily.
would be interesting to see what manufacturer has the most loyal customers... might that be yamaha? possible...
as for myself, i never went with the "biggest" producer, be it keyboards, sound equipment, computers, mobile phones, etc etc, but rather with second or third one. and i think that this is a good strategy, is the best area, where's more advantages for the buyer, including the best price/performance ratio.

just my oppinion...



[This message has been edited by adimatis (edited 10-09-2006).]

I don't know if Yamaha is dominating the arranger market...I seriously doubt it..

I think as an example[from what I read], Roland is more favorable in Europe..

Yamaha is brought to our attention because all the Yamaha owners are here at SZ ..

Yamaha has a broad base of sales because of the PSR line [also includes all the other "toy" models]..I would be curious to know how the PSR stacks up against the same price point Casio line...my money[bet] is on Casio...world wide..

I wouldn't feel bad for any of the major companies..there is enough of our dollars to go around..

Maybe we should start supporting the small independents........like Domenik...I am sure there is a future Mediastation on my horizon... :}

I thought that there was no satisfactory replacement for the Technics KN7000 until I discovered the Korg PA1-X Pro arranger keyboard just the other day - and they do say that some of the Technics Lads and Lassies ended up here... http://www.korg.com/gear/info.asp?A_PROD_NO=PA1XPRO

Yamaha have indeed gotten it right. They have a good (perhaps not great) sounding instrument, an almost perfect, non-controversial, intuitive, easy to use operating system across their product line, light weight, the right mix of features (including the vocal harmony on their lower end models,e.g. PSR 3000, detachable speakers, etc.), coupled with the responsive customer support. This makes it easy for the users to overlook whatever they may perceive as shortcomings, such as funny shape, too-polished sounds, and perhaps even a short (only 61 keys) keyboard. (I am not one of them, but if Yamaha did have T2 with 76 keys, I'd buy it in a jiffy).

Another factor is that with Yamaha every top model has been an improvement over the previous one, adding new features without taking away the existing ones (save for sampling, which most people did not use much anyway). This is not the case with other manufacturers - with every new model, for example, Roland takes two steps forward, and one step back, so if you are content with a feature on your current Roland model, there is no guarantee that it will still be there in the next model. The only thing that is guranteed not to go down is the weight - they seem to totally ignore the fact that gigging users have to move their gear to and from their gigs.

In addition, Yamaha's customer service is very good. Their reps monitor and post in this forum, as do those from other brands, but not all. Commuications with Roland are decidedly one-way, with no reliable way to get our concerns across.

That's why Yamaha is doing so well.

Regards

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Yes the pro version with dual ondeck Mic input sliders really looks interesting.....

Alex.....Great post I agree!



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-09-2006).]

If I look to my own observations, I think in Europe Yamaha & Roland are on Par at the moment.

To Alex:

About the service of Roland, I can only speak from my own experience, allthough it's been years ago I needed them, you could just call Roland Benelux and talk directly with the technical people of Roland.
Don't know whether this is still the case, but I think it is.




I am pretty sure there's one for me too in the future. I love all those knobs.
But before that I will first start experimenting with the software route.

Fred

This is only MY opinion and response to having both the Tyros2 and PA1x Pro in my studio. If Yamaha does, in fact, dominate the arranger market, it is because of the much more intuitive OS. However, despite this, and probably because of the Styles, drum voices, and 76 keys, I hardly ever touch the Tyros2 and when I go into my studio, I immediately head for and flip on the PA1x Pro. Most of my compositions and arrangements are in the jazz/jazz fusion genre' and the PA1x just has better styles for that type of music. The T2 is, in my opinion, the more technologically advanced of the two, although both are light years behind where they should be, given the currently available computer processing power. But all of that means little when you sit down to play the thing. It's the one that inspires you that's always going to be "first call".

The point is, if Yamaha IS dominating the market, it's because the market is mostly a home market and mostly an amateur market. This is not meant to be insulting; it's just a fact. If Yamaha wanted to market to the pro's, I believe the T2 would more closely resemble their "PRO" line of keyboards. JMO.

chas

If any of the leading manufactureres had to depend on the "pro" market...they would go out of business......bet your bottom dollar, it is the home market that keeps them afloat.

Ask any MI store!!!

BTW...when I started selling Hammonds in the 60's...it was the same story...The home market were the buyers ...not the "pros"..

Just a little curious why, after all the negative comments about the whole 'my keyboard dominates yours' general leaning lately, dnj decides to resurrect the whole issue AGAIN.........?

Haven't we got ANYTHING else worth talking about?

Why not a thread about why certain things about 'yours' is better than 'mine'? There's GOT to be something you would like from another arranger line to be added to yours......

I know Donny does, after all, he went through enough bloody arrangers trying to find 'it' ..........

Another thing in Yamaha's favor are the excellent support websites such as PSR Tutorial. It is really good to know you have access to a dedicated group of experts for answers to questions as well as the large number of downloads available. Perhaps the other Mfgs have similar sites but I am speaking only from experience owing Yamaha boards.

why yammy is selling

1.Better OS(very easy to use)(music finder is now copied by both Roland and Korg,though they had it is not as flexible and easy)
2.better 3 rd party world(including free styles)
3.Light weight
4.features ahead of the competition(USB to device and SM card)in mid range market
5.more everything for the price(MORE Rom,More POLY,more 'must have' features)in general(pads that plays LOOPs - before Pax -Korg doesn't have it)
6.some "must have" sounds are made right(SAXES and guitars,also acceptable AC pianos)
7.Better styles and fills(which can fit most songs)(eg.not over orchestrated like KORG)
8.More tuned for arranger gigger than studio musician(who will buy a sampler/workstaion anyway)(this is the mistake of the competition who sees things other way so doesn't sell well-havier,more unused features but lacks reatime hands on functions in arranger play-eg-dual button pressing in KORGs ).
9.styles more focused(and also more) on ballads ,8 beats and pop/dance than swing/waltz ,pokas and world(which attracts most people)
10.better priced(same priced 76 keys EXR7 has 2 varition and No style maker for a mid priced arranger(yet have 16 ch seq)?may have better overall sound than psr 1500,but people will go for Psr 1500 anyway though they know that they'll have to live up with song maker and not so great keys compared to EXR.(not to mention 1500 has storage advantages).

problem with Yam - they are getting away with cheap hardware,not so great drums and OK overall sound,(but the competition refuse to listen,so they are loosing out to Yammy).




[This message has been edited by jamman (edited 10-09-2006).]

Fran: Have you looked at the Neko from www.openlabs.com ?

Diki, I'm not sure anyone else perceives it that way. If Yamaha does dominate the arranger market, I think anyone interested in arrangers would want to know why; or at least hear other member's opinions on why they think that is so. I see it as a perfectly legitimate question and not a "pissing contest" question unless someone went out of their way to make it one. JMO.

chas

Well, the thread has kind of evolved into a discussion, fair enough........ but if you go back and look at dnj's original post, well, to my eyes that looks pretty much like a taunt, doesn't it? No asking for opinions there.......

Hi,

not for me, and it's not what I see just looking at people playing live (cannot of course enter in any home to check this out ....).

There is a market for all brands, I tend to see instead that this forum is sometimes too Yamaha oriented, even if I respect anybody opinion and found a lot of useful and interesting things here.

Just my thought.

Regards.

All my friends - those who play or have played arranger keyboards - have a Yamaha.

However, if we talked about synths, kord would be the winner in my country, Roland woud be the next in line, Yamaha - last.

overall best seller

synths and workstations

1.Korg(everywhere)Triton and Triton Le outsells everything
2.Roland(Before Fantoms, XP era(esp 50) -roland was #1)
3.Yamaha(EX,motif's bad OS causes this)

arrangers (in mid to promarket,excluding low PSR's and Casios)

1.Yamaha(In US and ASIA) (mainly after 2k and after,not 740,8k era)
2.Korg(In mid east and EU)a little over the edge than Roland(KETRON has a little share)(in mid east -they have better support including hardware)
3.Roland(better than Yam in EU)(as above Korg until afew yrs ago)(while in early to late 90's Roland's E's and G's ruled the market).




[This message has been edited by jamman (edited 10-10-2006).]

Where do these figures come from, jamman?

Er . . . doesn't sound that way to me. dnj is just saying he's tried just about everything and has come to the conclusion that he's happy with his Yammy. That's cool. Enjoy whatever you play - that's all.

Diki,

If you look at this thread, I was the only one who posted something negative about Roland, which, as you know, I do own. In fact, I believe that the main beneficiaries of this thread, and the many well-articulated opinions, are those competitors lagging behind Yamaha.

This consistency is a great feature of Yamaha product line. The user moving from PSR 2000 to 2100 to 3000 can be pretty sure that the newer instrument will have all the features he liked about his old board and then some. Ditto for transitioning from T1 to T2.

How cool would it be if Roland had retained the Super Tones page from the VA- series? or the smooth scrolling in the list of songs/styles, that they have had in the G's? or the style morphing? How about being unable to control tempo with the alpha wheel when a page other than main is displayed? Or the chord sequencer, that they have had forever, but then suddenly decided to drop? Yet in their relentless pursuit of cost savings, they replace the buttons with the touch screen, then bring back the buttons, but not all, (e.g. fills)?

To me this is one of the great conundrums that Roland would drop functions that many users found valuable, or at least gotten used to. The purpose of this was, what? to confuse and exasperate their loyal devotees?

I can somewhat uderstand taking creative liberties when it comes to implementing new functions, although having the audio subsystem and the removable storage, why not implement the MP3 playback? Why not be daring and implement the MP3 playback with the VariPhrase capabilities? Wouldn't that be cool? How about MP3 with VariPhrase and synching to style? That would have been too innovative for them. But why drop the functions which used to work before? How do they decide what people use and what they don't? Were any of you ever asked? I sure as heck was not.

Which brings back my concern about customer support. I can pick up the phone and call Roland tech support in the US, but beyond some simple advice, they have to go to Roland Italy for answers, and those answers do not seem to be coming.

I do think that Yamaha is doing a better job designing, marketing, and supporting their keyboards, than, say, Roland. For the sake of all of us Roland users, I hope that Roland will do things as well as Yamaha does, and maybe even better (some wishful thinking here).

Regards,
Alex

from my observation(being in music retail both here and abroad(yes both EU,mid east and asia) for quite sometime.

Alex, no argument here.... anyone that reads my posts, and surfs in at the Danish G70 site will allow that I am no apologist for Roland!!

However, I accused no-one of Roland bashing, dnj included, only a dig at the self-congratulary style of the topic and post. While the thread has definitely turned into a useful discussion, the original post doesn't seem to have been the reason for it! All I am trying to do is remind our members here how bad things got a while ago (and Donny was one of the more vocal participants), and to possibly try to not get the whole flame-war started again and lose even MORE useful members.

Without accurate sales figures (and NO-ONE is posting those, just 'impressions') all we have is conjecture. While I am willing to concede that Yamaha may indeed have a larger market share in the US, many factors play a part in that result. Technical superiority or overall user-friendliness may play a part in the result, but other factors need consideration,

Firstly (IMHO) Roland's disastrous decision to relegate their entire arranger line to the obscure CK division (in the US) with low store counts, product stocks and exorbitant prices (regional exclusivity results in higher markups). Plus Roland seem to be in an extraordinary state of transition right now........

My impression is (and I heard rumors to the same effect) that Roland cleared house after the lack-luster VA series, and brought in a lot of new blood to the arranger development team, who seem to have started almost from scratch with the G70. While this has brought many new and exciting features to the Roland line, it also saw the disappearance of several unsung, but useful, features that hopefully Roland are paying attention to.

Maybe Yamaha IS dominating the US market (arguments exist for that to be locally only), but many factors contribute to it, not just the arranger features. Only LISTENING to their customers will keep that continuing, and so far, I don't see ANY Yamaha response to the myriad requests for a 76 note Tyros. So there is room for improvement across the 'board.......

Once again, I call for more consideration of ways to improve these keyboards, and less self-congratulatory pats on the back for picking the market leader. Especially Donny, who has a better perspective after trying out so many arrangers, can't you come up with some requests to Yamaha for features you thought would improve your playing experience? Maybe the Makeup Tools from Roland, or the combined Style and SMF play concept from Ketron, or the Akai import from Korg?

While Yamaha may be the market leader, it sure doesn't make them perfect........

No Matter what keyboard is out and what sounds.features it has, there will ALWAYS be something that SOMEONE will pick and say "wish it had this or wish it had that" so there really will never be a perfect Keyboard.. what is a Perfect Keyboard?? whats perfect to one person could be absolute rubbish to another...

In many ways I'm like DNJ--tried a lot of keyboards, some that were very expensive. However, the Yamahas always sounded best to me, and my audiences. If Yamaha really does dominate the market, it's probably for one very simple reason--they sound fantastic, both in the home and on stage.

Cheers,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

Your dead right there Gary, in my opinion no matter what features and buttons your keyboard has, its all about music and the sound that comes out is what people/audience notice.

Nick

I do want to see both KORG and especially ROLAND competing with YAMAHA(esp in mid range market).This is good competition for all users.More fetures and better sound/hardware for cheaper price.

Roland ruled the market in the whole 90's(where mid Yam arrangers sub standard sound wise to most users.Korg kicked all of them when they did I3 with prosound borad in 93(full seq but no direct disk play) so it was Roland E86(PSR 3000 of that time) who was the winner for some years(in mid east in EU)then came newer Es,G's when Korg failed with IS series(better sound but same luckluster features and OS for an arranger) and so on.

The success of E86 = success of PSR 3000
What are they? - Light weight,usuable sounds for gigging,more instant features for live arranger play than competition,better OS and cheaper price than competition.(E86 can read SMF and styles from FD with no load time- where I3 can't do)and it was in 1993.

Yamaha may be selling,but it doesn't make them the best(I agree).Some KORG and ROLAND has much better hardware,some better(unique) features,more synth editing power and sequencer.Can Yamaha do that,ofcourse they can.But why not?

After 2k's hit(and failed 9000 pro),Yam got the secret:More features for an ARRANGER,light weight,good price,good must have sounds(subjective),still got away with bad hardwre,no seq,synth editing) etc.Their intention - "TO SELL WELL in arrager market"- and so they did.

Arrangers are mostly sold in EU and mid east.KORG(especially) and Rolands are selling well(BETTER than YAM as I said in my above post) -3k,T2 is starting to change) there.Do you know that in some EU countries KORG PA50 is $720 and PSR 3000 is $1700 new?

US is a different story.(and most pro arranger users who are playing out(not pros at home) prefer YAM as an arranger to gig(they don't need mid east sound and styles,where other guys including GEM and KETRON shines).
In US arranger gigging(nursing homes-senior residences ,you use arranger styles for a request if you don't have SMF(espicially for oldies -40's ,50's and 60's).So yes,PSR 2000,3000,T1 and T2 are the best sellers (also for their well programmed simpler western styles,fills),and most seen in OMBs in USA.


In ASIA,also interesting -(except for INDIA -who demands more ethnic sounds and mainly SMF playback(for songs in film music- where you have to sequence and sound it right or the audience will notice)(similar to EU and mideast -mainly current hits- sequenced closed to original)-KORG has a good market since O1w/fd days.
Malay and S'pore,Thiland,Indo,V' nam and Philipines -most OMBs plays WESTEN songs(also their own)-YAMAHA tridionally have very good market and 2k,3ks are doing extremely well.


I prefer KORG(overall sound with some exceptions) and as a all in one KB-synth power and sequencer.I also like some ROLANDS's sound and some features/hardware.But I have to admit(hard to ignore) that Yamaha has done things right (not the best)in most important areas in recent years as an arranger,so if I want to take a gig that needs mostly ARRANGER backing -YAM will be the choice.(But for my band or sequencing at home or SMF (alone)playing gigs - I have other choices).




I LOVE ALL KEYBOADS.JUST DONT HAVE ENOUGH MONEY TO BUY THEM!

Peace.



[This message has been edited by jamman (edited 10-13-2006).]

Well like it's been said:

EVERY Keyboard Manufacturer has SOMETHING to contribute to the musical world.

But I HAVE to say one more thing....

until Yamaha make a 76 key Tyros, it's hard for me to take that 'board seriously.

In.My.Opinion.

I just want to add a remark here, on most spanish spoken latin america countries yamaha arrangers and digital pianos rules. why? they have fame with quality construction and sound quality as well, people know they are consider believe it or not as investments, people know they are expandable thru styles,libraries more than anything else.
they are being recommended by most professional piano teachers specially for solo performances, there is a big market for yammy arranger products all around latin america. Colombia for example which we agree(I'm from venezuela) have some of the better talent musicians(in latin america), they are still selling brand new psr9000 and psr2100 and psr1100 (high,mid,low budget respectively) on yamaha authorized dealers with full yamaha support on parts and accesories(they are bringing those directly from japan). Incredible ah, in my opinion that is one of the keys for yamaha sucess, they keep providing support for outdated products, which people believe are still current on their countries.



[This message has been edited by superpowter77 (edited 10-16-2006).]

Arranger keyboards here in the USA...just do not sell well in MI stores..Sales people don't know what they do and they don't want to know what they do..
Most Pro keyboard players are snobs when it comes to arranger keyboards...The same Pros that use three boards ..one to play left hand bass and one or two others to play right hands sounds...throw in a dedicated drum machine..These same Pros can't figure out that the arranger keyboard makes their set ups obsolete, and why they can not see the benefit of a single arranger is beyond me..
For years as a dealer and fellow musician, I have been banging my head against the wall trying to enlighten these Pros..

You know what? It is their loss..

Back to why The CK[Roland} home piano stores received the option to sell the Roland arrangers here in the USA...It is simple, the CK dealers have a different mentality when it comes to marketing keyboards...First, they make a profit[and I don't mean 15%]..On average they know how to sell, if not product knowledge, at least people knowledge..When you sell to the home market..you sell the "sizzle, not the steak"..otherwise the benefits the new owner will enjoy...not what the board does for the other guys.

If you look at the numbers, I think you will see the VA7 sold in CK stores out sold the VA76 sold in IM stores..and by a wide margin...and guess what the CK dealers found it profitable..

Sure there are exceptions as George Kaye's store, but that is rare.

Sam Ash doesn't want to be bothered with high end arrangers,,neither does Guitar center, and a million other MI stores..

Excellent post, Fran.

You have covered a lot of very important points about the arranger market and how most pros view our instruments of choice.

Ian

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