In light of some recent......uh, debate about it, I thought we might have a discussion about what it is that each thinks makes a good composition and completed tune.

I'll start with this thought:

So that we may not get bogged down in the mire of semantics, we perhaps should define our terms. The dictionary defines perfect as "being without fault or defect."

So, going with that definition, to my way of thinking, there isn't any "perfection" in music. If there was, I would think there would only be one genre of music composed only one way.

If one asked a classical composer of say the 18th century what their thoughts were about rap or perhaps eastern music and the stuctures and harmonies used they would most likely poo poo it.

I recall in one of my early college theory classes in college having written a somewhat Avante Gard jazz piece for a recital, the prof. said "We call that Chinese harmony." He was a traditionalist trumpet player.

So, do we have to temper what constitutes a "good composition" by:

1. The baggage we bring to the table?

2. Our understanding of the genre we are listening to?

3. Our receptiveness to other than what we like or expect to hear?

Being a fan of the fine arts (paintings) I recall the impressionists Degas, Monet, Van Gough were not allowed to show in the salons of their day, because their new style of painting was unacceptable. Purple in the shadows? Pointillism? Blasphomy! This is not painting.

Salvador Dali or Picasso....what planet are they visiting from anyway?

So the point is, are we open enough to new compositions or a different way of composing, or are they just wrong or incomplete?

OK, someone else's turn.
jam on,
Terry


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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 06-27-2003).]

I really dont think this question can be fully answered. There are so many different kinds of people, cultures, in this world that influence the music we hear. To make a statement of what is a good tune is very very difficult because everyone likes something different then the next person especially in Music. Sometimes even songs that don't sound good to "YOUR" ears will be the greatest song to another person.We all percieve a tune in a way that is personal to us as individuals. Music comes from within and thats where the hard part in answering this question lies. It's the same with all the arts, music, painting, acting, etc etc. When you can just see thru the artform and understand what the artist is saying this is the start of the process. Remember whats "GOOD" to you may not be "GOOD" to the next guy.

Donny, you express exactly my point and I agree with you 100%.
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Someone else defined this answer exactly:
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"
There is no way that ANY piece or art is better or worse than another. It is a question of WHO likes it...or IF anyone likes it, for that matter. If only the artist likes it ..... that's still a viable audience, although the chances for financial renumeration will be difficult.

My money will never be spent on a Picasso, but I adore some of the finger paintings on my fridge, made by my kids. Biased? maybe, but it's MY taste, and it's "my perrogitive". (Maybe the only sensible thing that Bobby Brown ever said)

Art is trendy. It's volitile and subjective. Maybe that's why the artist's are so complex. We all share an inner passion to express mood with media, but in doing that, we open ourselves up to a barage of controversy. As comfortable as I am on stage ..... I respect the stand up comic more than any other performance artist. That, my freinds is FRIGHTNING ! Just a mic between you and the lions .... yikes !

My small suggestion to the writers is to write from the heart. Forget the hooks and the beats, unless you are trying to make money. I believ that a song needs to stang alone before it can please the masses. If it's written well, with feeling and continuity .... maybe others will like it as well.

Look at "Send in the clowns"
Not a very logical, or predictable piece, but so many people love it. It's a game of chance - played with the writer's feelings. I salute you for making the effort.

Dave a very valid point here in that in composing our music one of the great dictators of how we compose will be who it is we are composing for. If for the buying public and a record deal then we very much must listen and compose to what is hot at the moment. On the other hand, if we are composing art for arts sake, then we have much more compositional freedom.

I don't know how many recall Yoko's album sure did sell allot of copies though.
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 06-27-2003).]

Here are some good starting points for writing a great song:

The song must evoke or provoke a feeling within the listener, something they feel speaks to them. Often the listeners interpretation of a song has nothing to do with what the composers original idea was but that isn't really important, the fact the song is able to mean something different to each listener is all that matters. Remember, if you aren't feeling the song the listener probably won't either.

Don't beat a dead horse! If you have to consistently work on a song over and over and over again chances are its not going to be the masterpiece you think it is. Ask any good songwriter and they'll tell you their best song practically wrote itself. If you re having trouble with a song, step away from it for while, come back to it later, and see if any new ideas come to you.

If the song has lyrics the listener should be able to be easily understand them without too much thought provoking. Simple and straightforward is often the best way to get your point across.

The song must have something truly memorable about it. Often this is the melody line although it could end up being a solo, certain sound, or even a rhythm. A catchy melody or riff that the listener can walk away humming will almost certainly make them remember your music for quite some time. Most "hits" have a memorable melody line.

The production of the song must be done well enough to hold the listeners interest for the entire song. Too little production means the listener will get bored too quickly, over production can cause the listener to tune out even faster. Knowing that fine line between the right production and over produced is a difficult one to learn and a common mistake amongst most songwriters who try to produce their own music.

Keep the song short and sweet. While 15 minute tunes from the likes of Yes, ELP, and Genesis may have done OK in the 60's and 70's that doesn't fly today. Its pretty difficult to get your point across if nobody is able to hear your music. No radio station today will play a song that exceeds 5+ minutes so take that into consideration of you want the masses to hear your music.

Make sure your arrangement is interesting. Like it or not there is a classic formula for making a song and the intro-verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-verse-chorus-chorus-out formula still holds true. Sticking to this formula isn't a must but it can help in making a better song.

If your song has vocals the delivery of those vocals is extremely important. Singing with heart felt emotion is a must and if you intend to sing your own song be certain you have the vocal ability to get your idea across. If you don't have great pipes, consider hiring a vocalist who can do your song justice. Nobody likes to hear seriously out of tune vocals no matter how great the song may be.

If you can write a good song but lack the musical ability to play and record it well, hire someone who can do that for you. Knowing how to put the song down in a manner which is appealing is important. If that means hiring musicians, a producer, or an engineer by all means do it. If you believe in your music strongly enough then spending a few dollars so that you can have a well done project that you can show others is quite beneficial.

Be your own worst critic. Remember, if your song isn't of the same caliber as what you hear available commercially chances are you need to keep working on it to make it better. Being able to be honest with yourself as to whether or not your song has what it takes to make it in the real world is a difficult thing to do. Not every song you write will be good, many will be stinkers, and if you are lucky enough some may become the standards of tomorrow.

Writing the song is one thing but bringing all the elements together to make the song a finished product is another. Once the song has been written and recorded now comes the hard part, marketing it so that you can allow others to hear your works. Radio airplay is hard to get and even harder to keep. If your song is catchy, has something unique about it, and can hold the listeners ear, chances are you'll have a hit on your hands and a song that may be around for may years to come.

After looking at the profile for Ensnareyou, I find out that he is a record producer. This will account for some of his beliefs in terms of "saleability". I accept the fact that most "sales" companies, whether related to the arts or not, are in business to make money. Not a bad thing, but not an artistic viewpoint either.

Many composers and artists create for the creation, itself. The rewards are glorified with financial support, but the product is made with artistic content as the driving force.

I urge all who write to do so with the emotion of a hermit. Look within your soul, and deliver a product that reflects what you want to say. Forget the pop trends, the hip lingo, the slang, the satire ... forget it all, and write the feelings that you wish to express.

If you want to sell these products, then you need to apeal to the masses, but don't follow anyones "rules" for writing a hit. Chances are - they have no more hits than you do.

Real emotion is hard to come by, and almost impossible to hear in todays hit music. Tell your story in a way that people can relate to it, and people will listen. Audiences LOVE story tellers.

Good luck, writers. Keep them words flowin' !

The music itself, instrumentation, melody, arrangement, etc. is what grabs my attention and interest. I pay less attention to the lyrics. Guess that's why my CD collection is largely instrumental music.

Uncle Dave Wrote:

<<<<
After looking at the profile for Ensnareyou, I find out that he is a record producer. This will account for some of his beliefs in terms of "saleability". I accept the fact that most "sales" companies, whether related to the arts or not, are in business to make money. Not a bad thing, but not an artistic viewpoint either.
>>>>

Dave,

I am a record producer and engineer but I am a composer first and foremost. I write songs because that is my life. I don't do it because I make money with it I do it just because its something I have to do, sort of like breathing. Yes, I am successful at what I do but that doesn't mean my beliefs will be different because of it. First and foremost is to write a song that is heart felt. After that producing and engineering it to the best it can be will only help to get your point across better. If it happens to be well received, great. If not, my feelings certainly aren't going to be hurt. I wrote the music just because, not because I thought it was going to be a hit.

This is more to my point of view for songwriting and is how I go about creating my work as opposed to the more commercial view given by ensnareyou.
Terry


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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html