One thing that is very interesting with this keyboard (MZ2000) is the arpegiator . You can arpegiate a sound in the left or right hand . It's very cool ! For $650.00 its a very powerful keyboard IMHO ! dano

Right you are Dan0! It's well worth the $650.00 I still regret selling mine. Hey, I suggest you also try out the pattern sequencer. It's pretty extensive... I still think this keyboard has been way under rated. So many people gave it bad marks, and they didn't even play it. I really give Casio credit on this board. It's in a whole different world compared to their other models....

Squeak

I had one and in some ways I too wish I hadn't gotten rid of mine. Much maligned by some, but for me a rather useful board for composing. I would rate it somewhat lower for a live playing situation but only because I didn't like all of the styles ( some were pretty decent though ) and there was no vocal harmony option. The arpeggiator definitely IS cool on that board though. The sequencer edit screen was by far easier to understand and more intuitive to use than either my Pa80 or the PSR line. I did actually use the MZ though for a couple of impromtu gigs along side my 740 because it had jammin' lead guitar, synth, and sax sounds. Organs weren't bad at all either. It's pretty packed with other useful features too. If you fool around and modify them enough though, the styles can also be made to be pretty good. Style editing seemed easier and more user friendly ( to make them sound good at any rate ) on the MZ than any other arranger I've ever owned or tried. Casio came so close with this board, but didn't follow up or try at all to improve on it afterwards. It actually got some fairly warm reviewws in a couple of the keyboard magazine. I agreed wholeheartedly with one reviewer that ended by saying that he'd like to see Casio take the best sounds from this board, add a few more, and launch a whole new range of synths. LOL... Dan, I remember that you were joking with me last year ( good naturedly of course ) about Casio watches, but now I think you can see for yourself the potential this board has.

Korg AJ

the arpeggiator was a useful function to have. But the mz2000 altogether was little more than a copy of a technics kn5000 with many similar features and operating points. It was interesting in a features respect - but let down by the same poor casio samples, in my opinion.
ps forget about watches, casio make great digicams!

Samples and sounds are subjective, so no matter what any of us thinks about the ones in a particular board, what sounds good to me won't necessarily sound good to you and vice versa. I found a lot of the sounds to be pretty good, and so did some major mags.. That doesn't mean squat if the person buying one doesn't like the samples though. I myself don't care for some of Yamaha's samples. ( yet I find their boards to be very useful for live play ) In fact I got the MZ to go along side of the PSR740 because I liked the sounds I mentioned in my earlier post better than the ones on the 740, and it had a ton more features.

The bottom line is for me and probably some others, at it's price it could be a very useful tool. Besides, for the features, at that price, if I had a spare 650.00 dolars right now, I'd gladly use a sound module with it for the sounds I don't like ( and there are quite a few in the MZ ..and maybe less but always some in EVERY other keyboard I've ever played no matter what price ) If the MZ is basically a copy of the KN5000, this isn't necessarily a bad thing is it ? At the time of its release MZ was what, about half the price of the KN5000 ? Try to even FIND a Technics around here to demo... I don't think so .. and THAT to me is an unfortunate thing, because I had a Technics many years ago ( so long ago I've forgotten which model # ) and even then I thought it was a heck of a board for its time. I'd love to see the latest offerings.

Korg AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 03-08-2002).]

AGREED! for $650.00 is a great KB, I don't know what I'm going to do, or sale, but I need to get one pronto!!

I hope but the time I get the money there will be some left!

ViLo


------------------
ViLo
HE'S COMING, MAKE MUSIC, GET READY!

[This message has been edited by ViLo (edited 03-08-2002).]

Hi Bluezplayer,
my point was the kn5000 was already out of production a year when the mz2000 was introduced (and sounded much better too - subjective I know).
the mz2000 came out here at £1299 vastly overpriced for its market quality level.

very soon it was heavily discounted. then casio gave £300 trade in for 'anything' else to garner sales. this meant you went to your dealer, bought a £49 casio mini-key board, and gave it straight back to him for £300 off an already heavily discounted mz2000.

the poor souls who bought at top price when it came out found themselves with something virtually worthless as a trade in. but - relatively good value if you waited for the huge drops in price, or bought second hand.

over here is different with technics easy to find and compare and gem and ketron relatively rare with tiny market share for example.

Valid points Tech.. I agree with you. At 650.00 I think though that it might be worthwhile for someone to at least check out. I DO believe that the Technics might have better overall sounds for my ears too, just based on the little I've heard from them and the old model I had, but man I just loved the elctric guitars and saxes in that ol MZ. On the other hand the drums and pianos left a lot to be desired.

Which brings me to another point that you already raised Tech. It seems that for whatever reason some of these boards drop dramatically in price near the end of their runs. Roland did it with the EM 2000 / G1000 series and it appears that they are doing it again with the VA series. All good for the new consumer, and the manufacturers and stores who can unload excess stock, but maybe not so good for the person who already has one and just watched his / her trade in value potentially get cut in half. The recently replaced PSR 740 also took a dive in price recently at some stores. On the other end of the spectrum, almost from sublime to ridiculous, companies are still trying to sell the Yamaha 8000 for near the original asking price. How long ago was that replaced already ?

I think for myself, after experiencing buying the MZ, PA80 and PSR2000 at the very beginning of their runs, a switch in strategy is in order. Unless there is something new that TOTALLY blows me away, I'm gonna wait til the end of the run for something new. Not only because of price but... my PSR2000 is already in the shop and there is no chip yet available to replace the one that Yamaha already admitted to my dealer has big OS problems, so here I sit with a 1000 as a loaner waiting.... I waited and held my breath for months with the PA80 until OS 3.0 came out Thankfully I like the board with it. I bought the MZ fairly new, watched it's value begin to plummet and observed that there were NO updates to the OS coming out. Luckily I was able to trade it in for a PA80 for nearly full value.

Korg AJ




[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 03-08-2002).]

Things are getting less expensive ! dano

[This message has been edited by DanO1 (edited 03-09-2002).]

In comparing the MZ2000 to the PSR2000 what boards is better? Sounds, ease of use features and price factor?

surely the less successful the product, the bigger the price drop? the manufacturers have to recoup some of the fixed development costs if it is not selling, so cut price to get some more sales. if the product is selling successfully, there is no need to discount heavily. every price drops when replaced by a new model, so success is measured in the time before price drops come in. with the mz that was soon.

the example of the full price psr8000 is just a retailer relying on customers ignorance in not knowing what they are buying...

sorry to read about your 2000 chip saga, it must be frustrating to say the least and spoil the excitement and energy you get from the adventure of a new board to play.

2000 versus 2000??
you have to look at your local prices, but I would say the yamaha wins the voices, harmoniser etc, and although the psr operating system has improved, there are a few tricks in the mz that are worthwhile, in the ease of use department, so it is not totally out of court in comparison. but for me the voices count a lot...

as far as value - I have said every time this is the last time I buy at launch - next time I wait until it is about to be replaced and get it cheaper - and then you listen to it, get enthusiastic, play a little music, hear some great samples, see the improved features or editing... and all the good intentions go flying out the window...
go figure

ps my first full size, top of the range board was a casio XXX7000?, maybe 20? years ago, before the days of digital, samples, FM?, midi???. This was a huge grey beast with a few patterns and a handful of voices. The best voice was an analogue electric guitar (v.e.r.y... fender/wet reverb) so I used to play virtually every song with this blasted electric guitar!!!

Synth,

The comparison of the day was the 740 vs the MZ, and as Tech says, for voices ( overall )and styles I would give the edge to the Yamaha's, but the 740 was a little light in the features department, and the MZ was way ahead in that area. The PSR 2000 has come a long way to improve in the features dept, and I'd rate it above the MZ, but if you get one with an original OS, you are probably going to be stuck with that OS for a while, and for me there were several problems. Right now mine is in limbo because the disc drive went bad in it and the tech himself found problems with the OS chip. There aren't any chips available here in the USA to replace the faulty ones at this time.

Tech,

The more I think of it, if the MZ has a lot of the features and operates like the KN5000, then I really want to find something in the KN line to look at. The thing I liked most about the MZ was the way it the features were laid out and the ease of access to all of them. It was a very simple board to learn and understand too.

There was one huge glaring problem for me with the sequencer in the MZ though. I did not like that I couldn't edit any of the "midi" note data that came from the accompaniment section of the board after I recorded a song in the MZ. All that could be edited were things like the chords and the variations, because that part of the song was recorded as a "Casio" type midi file, while the real time parts that were recorded on top of it were recorded in SMF format. I was able to get around that by recording directly to an external sequencer, but it kind of defeated the purposde if I wanted to record away from the computer. Is it that way with the KN 5000 as well ?

Korg AJ

basically with the 5000 yes, but maybe not quite as bad as the mz operationally, I seem to remember. but you still need the external sequencer.

what they did with the kn6000 was give an auto chord/pad to smf conversion facility. this played the sequence in real time back into the sequencer with all auto accomp and pad tracks converted to midi tracks with individual note data.

it works well, the only problem is that you have to fiddle with gm voices and controllers to get the midi file to sound anywhere near as good as the original easy play sequence with the technics voices.

Hmmmm,

I wish it had been different on the MZ because the sequencer itself was one of the best and easiest I ever used for an internal one. It was something I would actually USE as opposed to the ones on any other keyboard I've tried, and it worked well with real standard midi files. It wouldn't be enough to stop me from getting one though Tech. I was willing to live with it on the MZ, but was hoping that there would be an upodate for the MZ that would do something like you describe on the 6000. ( more like dreaming..I know better than that ).

I'm gonna take a wild guess here, but I remember that the MZ can auto convert both Technics and Roland accomp patterns, sooooo... the question for the Roland guys is.. does it work that way with the sequencer on the Roland arrangers too?

Korg AJ

AJ, Technics 6500 yes[for supported models], Roland VA-7 no..

Will the MZ disk drive send and save sysex data (like a MIDI data filer)?
IOW, can you send sysex to the MZ and save it as a file on the disk, and then send it back out the MIDI Out?

Finally got my hands on one this week, and liked the layout and sounds.

I couldn't find the sysex info on Casio's website.

TIA,

tommyde

Do not take this to the bank but there has been gossip that the Casio and camp Panasonic (Technics) had or have a joint venture. Makes you wonder if the MZ is a less featured KN and most importantly how much of this gossip is true. AGAIN, might just be a rumor, but I would doubt it now a days although some features remain always true to the marque and are not shared regardless, there are alot of share components out there. Ford-Jaguar? Who would of dreamed that one would of happened, since 1988, by the way. You get the picture.

there has been no indication of any joint venture anywhere.

I have heard no mention of merge with Casio + Technics .
I believe that Technics may drop the label " Technics" in the near future . Panasonic will be used ! dano

Although there isn't any official 'merger' b/w CASIO and MATSUSHITSA CORP. (TECHNICS/PANASONIC), 2 of the key engineers on the KN projects left TECHNICS early '98 and started working with/for CASIO. By then, the MZ project was already on the design board. Modifications, adjustments etc were in-evitable; hence the slight resemblance in layout and functions.

It's been a while since I had it tommyde, so I could only guess, and really, I don't have a clue now..lol. The main sequencer itself does everything like any other midi sequencer though. It works fine on all SMF files and is one of the better ones to actually use and edit with ( for an arranger's sequencer ). The main difficulty is that the patterns sequencer sends only the chord structure and pattern type to the "casio" type midifile or to it's main sequencecer. Anytime I sent the midi data out directly from the keyboard to an external sequencer, it did send all of the note data out from every part with no problem. Once I did any editing and sent it back to the MZ on disk though, the CC changes that should have brought up the proper effect commands from the mixing area of the board did not always seem to work. The patch and bank data was always correct, but not the effects or volume settings. I'm not sure if that was a function of the internal mixer itself being unable to distingusih certian cc commands though. At any rate, I remember getting around this by setting a registration memory up with the proper mixer settings and then engaging that memory after I had loaded the modified midifile. It worked. I don't know why I didn't, but I never actually looked closely at the event edit screen on my external sequencer to see what was and wasn't being sent to it

Korg AJ



[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 03-11-2002).]

Casio came sooooo close to a contender with the MZ, but they just didn't study their demograpgics well enough. It's too big, it's missing the mic features, and it's too much money for their "first" real entry into the higher end.
I'd watch closely, because if they learn from this experience .... they will surely put out a winner next time. Then Radio Shacks will be the hot spot to shop !
.......well, mabye THAT's a stretch.

~~~~~
> Once I did any editing and sent it back to the MZ on disk though, the CC changes that should have brought up the proper effect commands from the mixing area of the board did not always seem to work. <
~~~~~

Thanks, AJ, for the reply.

I played around with a WK1800 for a while, before "gifting" it, and liked the simplicity of use of it. I found that the main drawback with the workstation concept of the WK was the inability to store external sysex onto the floppy, like a MIDI data filer, or the popular high-end workstations.

The MZ2000 seems to have the same type of ease of play layout for live performance, and it has a ton of cool arranger features, but shortfalls in the MIDI implementation would keep it out of studio use.

Thanks again.

tommyde

If what I read is true and Casio has a couple of the top Technics guys onboard, maybe just maybe they WILL get serious, add some of the features that Uncle Dave mentions, improve some of the sounds / styles, and really become a contender. The MZ is already close and some of the synth sounds are very cool and very editable. Still, they are going to have to start following up and refining their boards after they are released. Frank used a good term on a different thread. Casio virtually orphaned the MZ after releasing it, which makes me wonder if new and improved models may never come from them. It almost seems as though they treated the MZ as a failed experiment for the company and already moved on.

korg AJ

I'm starting to wonder if Yamaha has hired some Cascio people to do their followup work on the PSR2000.
I'm starting to get really annoying with this, aren't I?
DonM

I think so Don, Yamaha probably got the ones that were replaced by the Technics guys. And... Nope, nowhere near as annoying as Yamaha has been Don, but I sincerely hope you'll keep trying. Keep railing on them.., so I don't have to do it all..lol

KORG AJ

Don,
Eat a moon pie, and get on with your life !
You used to be such a happy guy ... fishing, and golfing, and singing ..... What's with all the belly-aching? They'll fix the 2000's. Yamaha never dreamed that this thing would be taken so seriously ..... they are used to a home market and this was aimed at those buyers. We blind-sided them with all our critique !

Based on my past experience as a repair tech I do think that Yamaha will someday fix the problems you folks have experienced with the 2000. Historicly Yamaha has been a top notch company. But Don, you have to remember that you are expecting Lexus service on a Chevy Cavalier. The 2000 is a small cut above the Casios that you can buy at Sam's club. I'm sure they will fix it. Some things do take time. As my 3rd child would say "Chill". If you had kept the X1 you would still be the upbeat Don that we all know and love, instead your sacrifice of the X1 made me a happy man. I must once again thank you for that.

Tom

Tom,
You're wrong about the "Sam's club" comparison, but I agree about the Lexus/Chevy deal. The success of the 2000 was probably a big surprise to the Yamaha people, and they are just now finding out that they shouldn't have cut so many corners in it's development.
Even with it's problems, I had good luck with the 2000, but you could not pay me to endorse the X1 again. Aside from the weird polyphonic allocation, it's a hardware issue with me, and that will not change till a new case is built.
If they just put better keys on the 2000, and fixed it to do what it's supposed to do - it'll sell like crazy.

Tom, I was unhappy with most aspects of the X1, particularly the position of the fill and variation buttons and the absence of multi-pads. I also had problems getting the effects to work correctly, especially Distortion.
Yamaha did not market the 2000 as a cheap keyboard--they said, in print, that the OS was software-upgradeable.
Dave: I have a very happy life, and have eaten so many moon pies that I have outgrown my clothes. IF we hadn't complained to Yamaha that most certainly would have done nothing about the problems. My feeling is that if we don't continue to complain, they may still do nothing in the US.
I love the PSR2000, but even Yugos can be serviced after the sale!
DonM

Money spent is money spent PERIOD. !!! You spend it on a product and you are entitled to support from a company if something isn't right and to what is advertised , regardless of whether you bought the Lexus or the Chevy.

If I were to put new windows in your house wouldn't you expect the exact the same commitment, service, and truth in advertising from me whether I was installing Pella ( top of the line and very expensive ) or Andersen ( very good but a little less expensive ) ? I suspect that you would, and that's exactly what you would get. Shouldn't we be able to expect similar from the folks who make and sell these boards ?

Tom, I'm as ticked as anyone about the 2000, but it just can't be compared to a Casio ( or low end Yamaha for that matter ) that you would find in Sam's. For me, it's just better to walk away. Oh well off to the music store.

Cheers gang,

KORG AJ