HI: Scott
Here is the rest of the test(hey I'm a poet
& didn't noet) well anyways, here it goes.
G7: root position
left hand (G-B-D-F) all stay G7 until you
play C note in right hand then it changes to
Dm7/G

G7 1st inversion
(B-D-F-G) all stay G7

G7 2nd inversion
(D-F-G-B) all stay G7

G7 3rd inversion
(F-G-B-D) left hand
right hand G#= G7b9
A= G79
A#= G7#9
the rest all are G7

Cmaj7 1st inversion
(E-G-B-C) all stay Cmaj7

Cmaj7 2nd inversion
(G-B-C-E) all stay Cmaj7

Cmaj7 3rd inversion
(B-C-E-G) left hand
right hand D= Cmaj79
the rest all stay Cmaj7

Is this the way you like it Scott ?

Enjoying the 9000 PRO
Denny

Denny, Tony (Jupiter5), Freddynl, & Boo : MANY THANKS to all of you for performing the chord tests. Looks like Yamaha (9000pro), Technics (KN6500) & the Roland G800 passed basic Music School Theory 101 with 'flying' colors !

I know that Technics and Yamaha also support 'rootless type' jazz chord recognition. How about trying (on the KN6500, PSR9000, and 9000pro) this the SAME test on the following 'rootless' type chords. Be sure to play the left hand chord concurently every time each succeeding note in the right hand is played. What I am looking for is that the chord recognition will maintain the SAME root name and SAME chord tonality: major, minor, dominant 7th. On the other hand, the chord's extension: 7, 79, b9, #9, 11, #11, 13, b13, does not have to be exactly the same. THANKS AGAIN in advance for all valued input. - Scott

Dm79 (Full keyboard 'pianist' mode):
Left hand: (F-C-E); Right hand notes played: D-E-F-G-A-B-C (D dorian scale)
Solton SD1 Chord Recognition: F6 maj7, Dmin9, Dmin9, Fmaj 79, Fmaj7, Fmaj7, Dm9
Technics KN5000 Chord Recognition: All Dm79

G13 (Full keyboard 'pianist' mode):
Left hand: (F-B-E); Right hand notes played: G-Ab-A-A#-B-C-C#-D-D#-E-F-F#
Solton SD1 Chord Recognition: G7, Fdim maj7, G13, Bb11#, G13, F13, E6 9b, Ddim 6 9 , Emaj7 9b, G13, G13, F13 (plays strumming F's with no chord)
Technics KN5000 Chord Recognition: G13-Gb913-G13-G#913-G13-G13-G13-G13-G13-G13-G13-G13

G13 (Full keyboard 'pianist' mode):
Left hand: (F-A-B-E); Right hand notes played: G-Ab-A-A#-B-C-C#-D-D#-E-F-F#
Solton SD1 Chord Recognition: G13, E 9b 11, G13, F13, G13, F13, A 6b 9, Ddim 69 F13, G13, G13, F13
Technics KN5000 Chord Recognition: ALL G13

C69 (Full keyboard 'pianist' mode):
Left hand: (E-A-D); Right hand notes played: C-D-E-F-F#-G-A-B
Solton SD1 Chord Recognition: Amin sus, C69, C69, E 9b 11, E11, Emin 11, C69, Esus7
Technics KN5000 Chord Recognition: All C69

G79 (Full keyboard 'pianist' mode):
Left hand: (B-F-A); Right hand notes played: G-Ab-A-A#-B-C-C#-D-D#-E-F-F#
Solton SD1 Chord Recognition: F5b9, B5b9, G79, BbMaj7 9b, G79, B 5b 79, B 5b 79, B semidim, B5b 7, G13, G79, B11#
Technics KN5000 Chord Recognition: ALL G79

G13 (Full keyboard 'pianist' mode):
Left hand: (B-E-F-A); Right hand notes played: G-Ab-A-A#-B-C-C#-D-D#-E-F-F#
Solton SD1 Chord Recognition: G13, E9b11, G13, B13, G13, B13, E 9b 13, Ddim 69, B13, G13, G13, B13
Technics KN5000 Chord Recognition: ALL G13

F13 (Full keyboard 'pianist' mode):
Single Two-handed Chord
Left hand: (Eb-A-D); Right hand: (G-C-F)
Solton SD1 Chord Recognition: F13
Technics KN5000 Chord Recognition: F13

Bb79 (Full keyboard 'pianist' mode):
Single Two-handed Chord
Left hand: (D-Ab-C); Right hand: (F-Bb-Eb)
Solton SD1 Chord Recognition: Bb79
Technics KN5000 Chord Recognition: Bb79

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 09-17-2001).]

You're making me dizzzzzzzzzy

Scott,
Is a sd1 in your immediate future?

HI: Scott
Here goes
left hand (F-C-E) all Dm79

(F-B-E) Ab=FmM7b5
A =FMaj7b5 the rest G13

(F-A-B-E) all FMaj7b5

(E-A-D) all C69

(E-Bb-D) all C79

(E-A-Bb-D) all BbMaj7b5

(Eb-A-D) G=EbMaj7b5 the rest F7/13

(D-Ab-C) F=Dm7b5 the rest Bb79

Didn't all pass the test I guess ha?
Enjoying the 9000 PRO
Denny
PS It's after midnight here time for this
kid to go to bed, got to work in the morning.

Hey Uncle Dave I'm Dizzzzzzzy now to my eye's
are bugging out of head.
Got to go to bed now.
Good night to all
Denny

The only thing that's REALLY making 'ME' dizzy is the recent horrific terrorist attacks !

Uncle Dave: I'm not sure if your posting was just a joke or a sutble attack on my detailed subject matter of chord recognition , but either way, I still think chord recognition MUST be an IMPORTANT concern, especially after recently discovering that that there are substantial differences between how different arranger keyboard manufacters chose to recongize chords played in FULL keyboard mode. The 'principal' function of arranger keyboards is for it to supply APPROPRIATE sounding auto-accompaniment backup parts (harmony & bass line) based on the chords you play. It's important to KNOW how our keyboards respond to the chords we play and not 'simply assume' that our arranger keyboards are providing appropriate auto-accompaniment backup harmonies. The recent testing of the SD1 clearly demonstrates this. The purpose of this forum is to share/exchange information among forum members, in order to better improve and foster the continual advancement of arranger keyboards. Sometimes our discussions may even require delving into 'dizzying' details in order to better understand the complicated and detailed features of our arranger keyboards.

Denny: Thanks again for the latest test results. Some of the results weren't exactly as I would have liked, but at least I could probably live with them

Donny: I really like the SD1 (especially the size-weight), but unless Ketron (Solton) can change its' FULL keyboard mode chord recognition to more closely match Technics & Yamaha, I'm afraid, I don't see it in my immediate future. I did forward to Sandro (Ketron Italy) these chord recognition findings but don't know how easily it will be for him (or if he is even willing) to change the SD1 OS software to make these latest chord recognition changes. Either way, I still greatly appreciate Sandro's interest, attention to, and implementation of the 'rootless' jazz style chords.

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 09-17-2001).]

Scott, calm down. You are not under attack here.
The chord issue is really much more simple than you portray. Remember, these keyboards are only trying to accompany the player, and I don't think they will ever be able to fully please all players.

Full mode works very well in most kb's to supply the band when all you add is two handed chords - it is not designed to "interpret" or "organize" your own particular styles of play. They take the notes most common to a chord and produce a backing. If you want to get fancy - you NEED to split the keyboard, so it can ignore the right hand when making chord changes.

Most people are not willing to let the automation software "lead" the band (so to speak) but you MUST.
The keyboards will NEVER really follow us - we just nudge them in the right direction, and then WE MUST FOLLOW the leader. Simple. The KB is the boss.
We are the ultimate organizer, but once you hit start - you have to follow what it gives you or YOU are wrong. It can't compensate for small nuances or odd fingerings. It only knows what it was programmed to know. It's NOT a player - it's a tool, and they all have limitations.
(like REAL players!)

I strongly suggest that you contact all your favorite companies and apply for a job in R&D so you can have one built that will please you, because that is the only way you'll get what you want..................
until the next thing changes, then you start over.

People - please remember that these kb's are filled with "workarounds" and compromises - learn the tricks and use the tool as best it can be used. The best way to enjoy the benifits of a particular tool is to work within it's strengths. Auto arranger keyboards is NOT the next art form - it's a shortcut to an end product that requires less people, less space and less money spent to acheive the goal...music.

Once again - Scott this is not an attack. You are a methodical, studious person and I don't mean to criticize that. I only stress that you seem to expect too much from an instrument that is clearly designed to a job that pleases MOST of the masses. Serious students of music, or players that use substituted chords must expect shortcomings from electronic intelligence. They simply cannot think like a real live player in every situation.
If you remember the compromises and play within the limits, you can get great results from these keyboards.
If you insist on your "particulars and nuances" - you'll need to sequence more, or reach in your pockets and pay some live players to get those results.
Auto arrangers are at the top of their game right now, and getting better all the time - let's not get ahead of what they can do. Enjoy the product that works now.
If you need to get "artsy" do it on a real intrument, and save the electronic toys for the paying gigs. They make life sooooo easy if you use them in context.

The SD1 chord recognition problems I brought up on this topic thread 'are' basic COMMON chords (like Dm7 and G7) regularly played by all keyboard players (beginning to advanced). The problem is (in pianist mode), when certain acceptable chord scale lead notes are played (in the right hand), the backing is 'NOT CORRECT'. I think it's important to point this out and that (hopefully) Solton will be able to correct this.


I'm sorry, but I disagree here. I don't think I am expecting too much from an arranger keyboard at all. In fact, ALL of my 'chord recognition' requirements (including advanced jazz chord recognition) are ALREADY supported by both Technics and Yamaha. I think an arranger keyboard CAN be designed to BOTH 'please the masses' as well as accomodate the flexibility requirements of an 'artsy' creative musician as well. One new upcoming arranger KB feature, which I heard mentioned on this forum earlier, is the implementation of a 'user customizable' chord recognition table. I believe I heard that GEM (General Music) may be implementing this in its' upcoming new models. I think we should always be challenging the arranger keyboard manufacters to produce continually better keyboards. Our power to invision is indeed the first step to turning dreams into a reality.

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 09-18-2001).]