I'm a beginner and I'm seriously thinking about buying an arranger. My modest question is: for general playing and composing, can he substitut a synt? Please, help me in my first choice.
Thank you.

Olá José.

Welcome to our little corner on the web. I'm sure you will find great friends and advice here. Speaking for myself, being a part of this family helped me a lot in developing my "musical side", in understanding my needs and in making my own choices.

If you take the time to look at previous threads, you will find interesting comments about this issue of synths versus arrangers. It's an old "war" around here! From what I have read and experimented, and as a general comment, high-end arrangers with sequencers and good sounds can do well the job of a synth. In addition, they will offer you great possibilies of making your own arrangements in a one-man-band style. For me, a synth would never allow me to evolve - as a musician - the way the arranger did. I also have little time to play with others, so only the arranger could suit my own needs of doing live solo acts.

You will have to ask yourself what you would like to do with a keyboard. Will you play in a band or alone? Live? Synths (and modules) will give more possibilities on the choice of sounds and samples and can include a sequencer and/or arppegiator that will assist you in composing, but arrangers also frequently include a sequencer and exclusively allow to play with styles (automatic arrangements). If you have more specific questions or something I type wasn't clear enough, go ahead and ask!

In short, arrangers offer you more versatility. Sooner or later, you will find out that arrangers are sometimes regarded by professionals as "toys". A pretty unfair judgement, according to many of us (of course), including myself.

-- José.

[This message has been edited by matias (edited 08-23-2002).]

José, who do you think you are? Jedi???

Sort off...
I guess I'm more like a "today's Jedi"

It really falls down to what you want in a keyboard. Arrangers and synths are in two differnt categories, and you'll find a lot of different opinions on the two.. However, it is true that many professionals still consider arrangers toys.. I honestly think they're mad because they now realize that arrangers are doing just as much as their synths and more. Personally I've owned both arrangers and synths.. I think it would benefit anyone to own both considering neither are bad types of keyboards.. With the arranger you'll have the auto accomp feature that follows your chord changes. Synths do not do this.. With a synth you basically program just about everything... Tracks are all recorded from scratch, including drum tracks.. However, some more recent synths are now inluding preset drum patterns, but these do not function like arrangers. They are just drum patterns and nothing more and can be used as a basis for constucting a song.. With the arrangers you can make your own styles, and they too will follow your chord changes just like the preset styles.. Many of the upper end arrangers offer so much now.. Example: the Yamaha PSR-2000.. This keyboard has a lot of features for a decent price.. You get digital drawbars for the organs, vocalizer, and quite a few other things.. Synths don't come with drawbars.., no wait I take that back, some do allow you to use the realtime sliders as drawbars.. I recall the GEM Equinox allowed this.. You'll find the arranger is geared more towards the musician who wants the all in one package for recording and performing.. Synths can be used for this too, but they require much more programing. Their operating systems are quite extensive and can get very deep...

Obrigado, Matias. Penso que, como eu, é uma pessoa que gosta de muitas coisas simultaneamente. No campo da música, o que preciso neste momento é de compor e fazer os arranjos. Compor o quê? Músicas simples, para festivais infantis e, num plano superior, bandas sonoras para vídeos meus.

Thank you very much for the tips, Squeak_D. I'll be in touch!

Hello José

Matias said well.
Wellcome in our family.


Sinta-se em casa
Saudações brasileiras
Chico

I would then listen to Squeak_D's advice. If you like to program everything from scratch in a sequencer, the synth will please you. With an arranger you have many ready-to-use auto accompaniement patterns (that in some cases your can modify to your taste). If you can, go to a shop and listen/play different arrangers.

-- José.

Here is what I think about synths:

1) synth keyboards are basically keyboards that are dedicated for assembling and tweaking sounds. It does so by adjusting the filters on multiple samples and combining these samples to make that sound.

2) Usually, dedicated synth keyboards do not have arranger capability. In fact, not all of them contain a sequencer. But some do.

3) So it depends on what you want to do in terms of sequencing and performing. Do you want a sequencer at all? If so, how do you want to sequence, from scratch by playing every single note or use styles to help you build some blocks/tracks? Do you ever use Styles for performance?

4) But the most important issue is do you make your own "synth" sounds? Do you spend hours on creating sounds?

Here is what I believe about this. I personally like to use "accoustic" and classical sounds. Therefore, I won't be able to tweak a sound better than the manufacturer. Let the artists hired by the manufacturer do their research and come up with the best "acoustic" classical sounds. For other non-acoustic sounds, Any decent set will do in my songs and performances. So in reality I do not care about a synth.

So in my opinion, a fully programmable arranger with excellent sounds is the best deal. But there is a catch.

In the past, musicians always thought that synths are for professionals. therefore, manufacturers loaded their synths with their best sounds. This practice is not completely true but you can always see hints of this.

Both have a place in my aresenal. A lot of what has been already said is true. I chose my arranger ( PA80 ) for it's potential as both a live play and compositional tool. It has all the bells and whistles I need to make it work well in either venue. The styles are among the best I've heard and the patern sequencer has more ( useful)functionality than any other arranger I've used. It also allows for detailed voice edits on par with a goodworkstation or synth. In fact, someone here once called it, " a workstation disguised as an arranger ". That was not a term of endearment for him ( but it is for me ) , but once the OS was upgraded, he went back to the PA80 and is still using it.. ( are your ears burnin' UD .lol ? )

I chose my synth / workstation ( Motif ), because it has some excellent cutting edge sounds ( along with beautiful acoustic and Rgodes piano sounds ) and the arpeggio feature is excellent. User arps, made properly, work VERY well, almost like one instrument or track piece of a style that can be changed on the fly. It also has some slider and knobs, ( user assignable included ) so when I want, on the fly I can change that acoustic guitar from a strum to a pick by instantly changing the decay, sustain and cutoff settings.

I added the AN150 plug in and now I don;t miss my old analog gear so much anymore.

As far as the acoustic sound thing mentioned above, I agree to a point, but sometimes the settings I mention above ( along with a host of others ) can make the differnce. Programmers of top end machines tend to use and setup the best of samples. It's up to me to set those sounds up so that they fit what I'm playing. Sometimes I find that easier to do in my synth as opposed to my arranger. ( although the PA80 allows almost unlimited editing too )

AJ

I'm actually starting to "kinda" like the piano in the PA80. I said "kinda". It's very nice in the upper register, but the midrange is still a little weak. Still......I'm not frowning - I just play alot of EP sounds instead of acoustic.

I remember waiting for my first PA80 ... it took forever to hit the streets. This is my third one so far, and I think it's getting closer all the time. A few more additions to the O/S and it might be a "keeper".

I'd love to see the variation buttons act as fill in triggers while the rhythm is running, like the PSR2000 and Farfisa G7. This is a great time saver, and a musical way to ensure that the fill-in matches the rhythm variation. This is a weak spot in the Korg styles - the fill-in's and the break button are WAY off base.

The synth/arranger debate will never end.

To help you decide, you'll have to work out which capabilities are required, say in terms of sounds, backing, playback, and keyboard

SOUNDS

If you want "standard" sounds (pianos, strings, brass, organs, percussions) then a good arranger or synth should be fine. Arrangers contain selections of "synthetic" noises too. If you want to "tweak" sounds a bit (brighter/darker) then arrangers can do this also. If you want to invent from scratch you'll need a synth or a high-end arranger.

BACKING

If you are composing tunes from scratch, then the "backing" capabilities of arrangers and some synths (in terms of hold down a a chord and listen to the band) are also less of a factor in absolute terms - but can be great for ideas.

PLAYBACK

If you want to prerecord arrangements and composition (using a PC?) then the midifile playback capability of arrangers and some synths will be useful, although the constraints of Standard midi files may be limiting. [Some synths and arrangers may let you use more than 16 channels of sound via track assignment to internal / external channels, e.g my Ensoniq SD1 gives me 24 tracks if I'm careful. It may only be possible to do this by editing sequences on the synth/arranger hardware]. I cannot comment on the edit capabilities of various keyboards because I edit my (cover version) midifiles on a PC. (If you dont intend to play live to your public you could go for a quality sound card and "input" keyboard for a PC and do it all using sequencing/ arrangement/ sampling software recording onto CD.)

KEYBOARD

As a classically trained pianist I lust after anything will 88 weighted notes. As a performer of pop cover versions regularly looking at upstairs gigs I use a PRS2000! If you have to have more than 61 notes, or require a decent feel, your choices will become restricted, but portability can suffer.

---------------

These decisions are almost always a compromise somewhere. You could wait for the "perfect" keyboard - that debate rages on this forum at regular intervals!

As I said at the begining, I'm a "starter" in this world of arrangers and sinths.
I'm "listening to" all your preciouses replyings, that have been very useful in my researches.
At the moment, I think tat what I want is an arranger with more than 60 or 70 keys!...
Can U help me somehow in this way?
Tank you to everyone.
José Medeiros

There are essentially three flavours, in what concerns the size of the keyboard: 61 keys, 76 keys and 88 keys. Most arrangers/synths have 61 ou 76, and 88 keys are reserved to instruments with hammer (piano-like) action. So almost everything in the market meet you criteria!

-- José.