Team,

I am sure by now most of you know that there are some keyboard manufacturers out there that do 'tap' into this forum from time-to-time for informational purposes. I thought it would be wise then to use this forum to let them know what it is that we really would love to see in arranger keyboards. Ofcourse we won't get all our wishes in one machine but seeing how competitive the market is today, I believe keyboard manufacturers will have no choice but to pay closer attention to what customers would like to have rather than what they THINK customers would like to have.

So far, I believe we have seen some drastic updates and improvements PLUS the willingness to coorporate with customers. KETRON's recent software fix to include rootless chord recognition for the SD1 ... and possibly to be further included in the X-serieds too is just one of many changes you can obviously see came as a result of a request from a consumer. They need our business to further improve on their products and stay in business. We need their business to ...well, stay happy and content with our instruments (and have some time away from the wife!).

Without requesting for a recording studio in a keyboard, what are some of the "I wish my keyboard had ..." features you would like to see in say your next generation keyboard?

To start, I would like to see:

* Storage on say CD-R.
* Cabability to edit into styles parts of CDs (where I can delete a voice(s)tracks from an existing CD and insert just the instrumental parts of the song into a style. The catch is rather than playback in the recorded key (SD1 already incoorporates this), I would love to playback in a similar fasion to they way we control todays arrangers. So when I change a chord, the 'new' parts should change along with me.
* Be able to independently vary the lengths of the ARRANGER parts per style plus have more than 1bar for the fills/break.
* Having the option to allocate memory as you see fit. So if you want say more samples, you can delete some of the (eg) styles you do not see yourself using and use that space for your best samples.
* Have mor features attached/assignable to the DYNAMIC ARRANGER (i.e when you press the keys harder/faster, you can access VOLUME, MODULATION, FILL INs/BREAKS, AUTO FILL INs, Auto-Keyboad-generated-loops [whose length you can set], temporal/permanent switch to another style etc ...)

Some of these mentioned above might already exist ... but they are just some of my thoughts. What does everyone else think?

Great ideas AJ !! I was just posting along a similar vein in the General Music Forum as it pertains my Gem WK8. My mantra lately has been fills within the variation. While some boards may have more than 1, my WK8 as most other only allow 1 fill within the variation. I would love to see 4 fills within each variation to help reduce the predictability. I picked 4 as most arranger come with 4 variation per style. Extra intros and endings per style would be cool as well but more fill per variation would rock my world !!

Vik,

In your cases as an enhancement further, what about having an AUTOFILL feature that randomly picks b/w FILL1 - FILL4 for each ARRANGEENT? I believe this is possible - just needs a random-number-generating loop (1-4) that feeds into the FILL FUNCTION call. With the auto feature ON, even you can't tell what the next fill will be within the arranger.

Cool!

AJ

Vic,

On the psr9k you can record your own fills 2 per style and always have fresh sounding ones if you wish. Your intros and ending which are also custom recordable can be used as fills while playing giving you 8 all together per style. You can also do this.....while your playing a style push one of your intro butons, now while the intro is playing have your style page/bank visable by pushing one of the style buttons, then before the intro or endings is finished push one of the style buttons and the 9k will automaticly go into the intro or ending of that style then push the original and go back to the style you were playing. Try this within the latin styles eg: merengue, mambo, salsa etc.

Well now Dnj, that's cool on the psr9k. I can record my own fills on the WK8 as well or even import fills from other styles. The second point you made, I'm don't think the WK8 will let me do that but I'll check it out. Might be close or if nothing else, it may provide for some interesting variety. Longer than 1 bar fills would be great as well. I think some arrangers allow you to extend the fill by holding the fill button or tapping it twice. Some of these options could probably be written into an OS update. Hello Gem are you listening?? I wonder if the new psr2000 can do the things your psr9k can do regarding recording 2 extra fills per style? AJ, the auto fill suggestion is a great idea! It would give you more a feeling like playing with a "real" drummer.

Ok, I have a few wishes for the PA80. Love the sounds. When I listen to musical pieces that I have created and subsequently saved in wav format using the PA80, as compared to similar projects I have done with the PSR 740, MZ2000 and even one with a PSR9k, I am very happy with the instrument sounds of the PA80 overall.

Korg could have done a little more in the feature dept though BEFORE releasing the board. Ok they have caught up somewhat and I realize it still may be in its' O/S infancy so to speak, and maybe I'm asking a bit much for a sampling feature to be added at this time, especially when there are a few other basic things it is lacking, but at the very least I'd like it to be able to match some of the features that my MZ2000 from Casio had. The sound editing is great and there are many good samples to work with, but the dual sequencers are a bit of overkill for me, although they might work nice for a solo musician. I would like to see full event editing to note level. You can delete events at this point but cannot insert notes. Even though it isn't that big a deal because I have several software sequencers, Sometimes I like working with a board away from my computer. I barely even needed an external sequencer with the MZ2k. Also the step editing for the pattern sequencer only has a resolution of 192 ticks. The MZ 2000 was much better in this dept. In fact it had full event editing down to one tick. It also had a true midi file to style feature built in, although you can do this ( with many more added steps ) by using the software stykle to midi converter provided on the PA80s website. The other thing I really miss is a master EQ, a seperate eq for each track and a host of other master dsp settings and effects that the MZ had. Even the PSR740 has a master EQ setting, and with tagalong software like xg edit or xg works, much can be done to really spice up and enhance the styles and sounds. On the other hand, the PA80's styles already sound great to me as is ( unlike the 740 and especially the MZ ), but I want to have those EQ effects so that I can tweak. I can do a little bit of eq tweaking with the internal effects, but not every instrument I use has an effect applied to it, and even when they do it's a long process to tweak the effects EQ. Also 2 fill ins per style just doesn't get it sometimes. I don't use the styles all that much for composing, ( but some are so good that I have used them with little modificcation at all ) but they are very good for scratch pad ideas and great just to play along to, so another fill in or two would be very useful.

OK that's my wish list. Yes, sampling would be great too, or ability to use the pcmmia card slot to load my own samples ( which Korg states is connected to the tone generator, but first I'd like to see the other items I mentioned above addressed.

In spite of this I am VERY happy with the board. I have no intention of trading it away. I have been spending nearly all of my free time as of late playing and composing on it, hence I haven't been on the forum much at all lately. There is no comparison coming from a PSR740 ( which I still have and find to be useful for a few of its sounds ), and an MZ2000, which I no longer have but would have kept ( loved the features ) if it had better sounds overall ( some were actually rather good, especially that feedback guitar ) and Casio could have shown just an inkling of after market product support.

AJ ( Bluezplayer )

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 08-03-2001).]

AJ, Good topic . This is truly an exciting time in arranger keyboard development but there's still a vast untapped arranger keyboard buying market out there. Previously, arranger keyboards were marketed primarily to the home hobbyist. As sounds and styles have improved and & more pro features have been added, there is now increased interest by pro players and schooled musicians as well.

Unfortunately there's still a degree of stigma associated with arranger keyboards, especially among schooled musicians. Unfortunately, its' past reputation as a one fingered K-Mart toy for kids & hobbyists still prevails. We could say, "screw the uptight intellectual effete musician snobs", but I think this is short cited. The challenge for arranger keyboard manufacters now is to find a way to appeal to the traditionally trained keyboard musician market as well. This can only raise the respect of arranger keyboards as a legitimate musical instrument for both pros and hobbyists alike. I look forward to the day when arranger keyboard 'performance' & 'composition' classes are being offered at Julliard or Berkely School of Music in Boston. Maybe then I can send my resume in for a teaching position there.

Here are feature which I think will greatly enhance both the arranger keyboard sound and its' performance capabilities:

1) Implement 'User Customizable' Chord Recognition Tables:

This will allow us the user to determine how WE want our chords voicings interpreted. There are many chord voicings which have a 'duo function'. Such as the notes (from left to right, played as a chord): C-E-G-A. This is most typically recognized as a C6. But, this SAME voicing is also commonly played and recognized as Amin7. With a 'user customizable' chord recognition feature, we could set up our own customized chord tables to meet the needs of the style of music we are playing at that time. With this flexibility, keyboard playing possibilities are endless.

2) Improve Style Pattern & Sequencer Recording/Editing Capabilities:

Currently, recording and editing styles on the arranger is cumbersome, partly because of the limitations & limited power of hardware sequencers. I would like to see an arranger keyboard brand & model specific PC software program available which could access directly with the keyboard for the purpose of composing/editing styles and sequences. This would ultimately make both style creation/editing a breeze as it's much easier to view all editing parameters on a computer screen instead of the relatively small keyboard screen on the Keyboard. I realize that there are already programs like Cakewalk & Cubase that support many of these features but having a PC program all ready to go 'out of the box' to directly communicate with ALL of the keyboards functions (sounds, styles, chord recognition and other arranger specific commands, etc) would be an added PLUS.

3) Improve the 'timing resolution' of arr. keyboard hardware style playback sequencers:

Here's a VERY important issue which has NOT been discussed much on this forum. The hardware sequencer & style playback 'timing resolution' is a critical component in how a style pattern will end up sounding. Basically the 'timng resolution' reflects 'how accurate' the sequenced style pattern will sound compared to when it was played in (recorded) originally. Whenever you record something, be it via midi or in digital audio, the music gets quantized. The higher the supported 'timing resolution', the more accurate (less quantized) the recorded style pattern will sound on playback. The midi timing resolution supported by most software sequencers like Cakewalk Sonar, Cubase, and Logic Audio is over 1,000 ppq (parts per quarter note). Unfortunately hardware sequencers currently support a much lower timing resolution because higher timing resolution takes up computer memory. My Technics KN5000 hardware sequencer regretably supports only a maximum of 96 ppq . But, my Yamaha QY70 hardware sequencer supports 480 ppq , so I know it is possible to increase the timing resolution on hardware sequencers. Some people may say you can't hear a difference. You may not hear it right out, but you will definitely FEEL the difference. What I notice is the LIFE (excitement) of the music gets taken away when you listen to music recorded or played back at a timing resolution of 96 ppq compared to 960 ppq. You really lose the exciting 'LIVE' sound when music is quantized even to 96 ppq. Even if you convert a style or sequence which was recorded on ANOTHER brand arranger keyboard (which may have a higher timing resolution), the playback of that SAME style will only be as good as the arranger keyboard you end up playing the converted style on. This is just one example of why converted styles may not sound as good as it did when played on the original keyboard it was composed on.

I hope other forum members can undertand how important my above requests are to improving both the sound & features of arranger keyboards.

Scott
http://scottyee.com

DNJ,
Actually you have understated the fill-in capacity of the PSR9000. In each style, there are fills up and down between each variation, and also fill to the same variation. They are all different, plus the break, 3 intros and 3 endings. All of these are user-programmable in style edit mode and, as you said, can be incorporated into live style play. Also you can sync the multipads to the style playing.
I wish Yamaha would let you store new or edited styles into any of the factory locations as Korg does.
DonM

1) provide at least 10 sliders like GEM WK8 (sliders are important, you can do without them, but let me see do without them in REAL TIME)


2) Support MTC (MIDI TIME CODE)

3) Support Multiple analog output. How about 8? so that 8 tracks will be assigned to 8 distinct outputs. How about Audio digital outputs?

4) Support Mlan and Multiple Midi I/O

5) Replace "FUNK and DISCO" styles with MILLIONS of ballad styles.

6) More improved sounds

7) More NONOPTIONAL built-in power-backed memory. Not 8, Not 16, how about 32 and 64? and How about 128MEGS of system memory?

8) More Flash

9)Onboard, oriental SCALE and oriental support. (forget the AS-1)

Don,

I see another Yammy in your future very soon :>) Hmmmmmmmm? The new psr2000 might work for you being you don't use many SMF songs and don't need the HD to store alot of them.

In addition to the normal fill-ins, another line of fill-ins with only one or two user selectable parts leaving the other parts of the variation played unchanged.

I have sometimes wanted to make fill-ins in which only drums and/or bass change but the other parts of the style remain as they are in then current variation. When I use the normal fill-ins to do this it's not only a waste but also sometimes -if not most of the time- I can notice the change in the overall sound even if the same lines are copied or rerecorded.

BTW, I was surprised when I first learnt that PA80 has only two fill-ins while carrying the "Professional Arranger" tag with it.

Shiral

I would like to see more dynamic randomization of the style patterns. True, you can push buttons to get variations and fills, but I would like to see a keyboard with FEWER styles, but where each style has a much greater number of patterns. These patterns should change depending on (i) chord type (already implemented in principle on Korg and Roland) - e.g. major, minor, 7th chords have different (but musically related) patterns with subtle diffferences. (ii) root chord - the old Lowrey MX1 played subtly different patterns depending on the root chord; there were 4 chord root groups with different patterns (iii) randomization of the above as in synths like the Korg Karma. The Karma does NOT have arranger like styles for many types of music, but it has capabilities that allow for the patterns to dynamically develop in time with some (but musically correct) randomization.

I look forward to a combination of these capabilities of the Karma with a basis of the fixed styles that already exist in today's arranger. That is, the keyboard would begin with the fixed pattern but as time goes on,the pattern would change in a musically interesting and correct manner. I think that this type of combination is already feasible with a Karma/arranger combination and it is a marketing decision on the part of Korg whether to combine the two.

Roland has a style morphing feature that allows two styles to be combined. Perhaps this could be implemented in a more dynamical manner so that for a few bars you would hear some of the patterns of one style and a few barsllater, the other style. The key here is DYNAMIC variation of the patterns in real time.

Today there are literally hundreds (and with the CD Roms of converted styles that are available or style conversion software, there are thousands) of styles for each type of keyboard. But many of these styles are similar with only subtle differences. It would be very useful if these similar styles could be "combined" into one style that would automatically vary between the different original styles. In addition, one should still have the "variation" capabilities to shift the intensity, texture etc. of a given style from the "original" (usually simpler) to "variation". But even within each group -- e.g. within the "original" or within "variation", the styles should vary dynamically and maybe randomly between several different patterns.

All the patterns needed to do this are available today -- just look at the number of similar but subtly different bossa novas or 8 beats available today on CD or with style conversion programs on on the net. What is needed is a keyboard that will dynamically vary between the different patterns.

I have tried to make ultra-long patterns for my Roland G1000 by combining styles. I get 32 bar styles that are much less repetitive. But it is not necessary to do this; one should be able to just call a few similar styles and instruct the keyboard to randomly vary the patterns between them, perhaps with some more control over which tracks get varied with which, and optimally with the "smarts" of the Korg Karma.

Any comments or further suggestions?

Sam Safran

I would like to see the following features:

*XLR balanced outputs
*better yet, give us digital outputs
*on-board speakers for 76 keys models
*lighted buttons
*option for joystick instead of wheels
*more flash memory for sounds
*ribbon controller

Henry

surely the most important and immediate aspect is to change the media of the keyboard. As files become larger, eg, .WAV etc, we should really be seeing a CD-R in our keyboards. Floppies should be a thing of the past, the are so unreliable and become damaged so quickly.

Lastly, I think the keyboards should also have internet access, so you can download stuff directly to your machine without constantly transferring it from once place to another. Just think, an online help manual would be great, or even replying to threads using your keyboard!!! But realistically, as the operating systems in keyboards are getting more advanced and require upgrades, the natural thing to do is to make keyboards net compatible. Also, as mentioned, file sizes are getting so large that its making the floppy so redundant and unreliable.

Here is a coupe more suggestions:

* short frame (joystick/mod wheels ABOVE the keyboard, not on the left)
* externally accessible user interface, to facilitate setup & configuration of ALL the instrument parameters from an external device, e.g. PC. I believe Emu does that with their samplers, allowing connection using the SCSI(?). IMHO, USB would have the sufficient bandwidth to allow both external user interface, AND 2 streams of digital audio.
* breath controller input, to help make more realistic wind sounds. Better still, allow another voice to be selected for when breath controller is active. Gooseneck stand for the breath controller, and a separate one for the microphone.
* integrated, but detacheable speakers.
Regards,
Alex

Gem has it, others need to be able to read commercially available sample disks, like Akai format.

Karma has it, other could use real-time control of style parameters such as rhythmic complexity and swing factor. The Karma also has programmable chord buttons, and these might make sense on an arranger keyboard.

How about a USB port that allows any game controller to be plugged in and used as a midi controller? I am thinking mainly of the fighter aircraft joysticks, but heck, why not a steering wheel ?

How about mid-range keyboards with SmartMedia slots to hold 128 MB of styles and samples. Two slots should do. Floppies should be excluded or at least connected only via USB.

Instead of CDR, DVD-RW.

Hi, I have gigs often in outdoors, and in the X1 Hd, the screen (never fail on my), but is hard sometimes to see because of the sunligth, of course never direct.....but could be nice to be able to change the angle, so you can ajusted and see clearly the screen......that´s my wish......

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mdorantes