I have not posted since the crash until today when I found I had been reinstated. I did not have much new to say anyway, but now I have test-driven and purchased a Korg KARMA and I thought some comments would be of interest here.

As background, I have a PSR-8000. It is great to have autoaccompaniment and thousands of styles on the net to choose from. However, I find all the styles too confining, I get tired of them easily. I was looking for a way to allow for realtime continuous control of an arranger, and consider buying a Roland MC-505 groove machine to combine with an arranger. However, I think the combination would be cumbersome.

So Yesterday, I played the KARMA. It does have chord recognition! This was not apparent from the write ups, but it recognizes chords, distinguishes inversions and voicings. It does not seem to recognize rootless chord voicings, but I have reason to believe that the chord recognition is programable, so this might be taken care of.

The Karma uses "Generated Effects" instead of styles. There are called that because the patterns are generated as you play, rather than predetermined except for the transposition, as on most arrange keyboards. There are no intro, variation, ending, fill, etc. buttons. However you can adjust everything in real time so the possible variations are much more extensive than with an arranger.

Referring to the generated effects as styles anyway, there are 1000 on board. Many are dance-groove oriented, which are not my favorite. Others are orchestral. I do not think there are many bread and butter styles for gigging musicians, especially if they take requests. However, there are some great acoustic guitar styles. I think new age is covered well. However, ballroom is poorly represented.

The sounds. This is a Triton minus the sampler (and the arpeggiator, but who cares). If you like Triton sounds, you will like this. It also take the MOSS option and TRITON ROM expansions. It comes with 32MB expandable to 64MB. To my ear, the Roland XV-5080 sounds more "real" and more evocative to me, the Karma sounds are more "edgy". Of course, the Roland expansion options are much more extensive than the Triton; but the Triton library is expanding.

User Friendliness. Arranger keyboards are made to be user friendly. In fact, they are made so that it is difficult to sound bad. This is not true of the Karma. With so much continuous control available, there are lots of non-musical (to my ear) settings. Just as you can get bad sounds out of any deep synth, you can get bad styles out of this deep arranger. Also, it can be hard to repeat something you have done before, because you many not remember what position all the continuous controllers were in and what changes you made in real time. It is not like having a set of registration buttons.

KARMA converts MIDI notes and control changes to more complex series of notes. You can enter the notes from the keyboard, or from a remote keyboard or sequencer. It might work well with alternate controllers, such as a Yamaha WX-5 wind controller. The KARMA MIDI data can be output from the keyboard, so it can be used to drive other sound modules and it can be recorded in an external sequener, although the internal sequencer is quite good I understand.

There is a floppy disk, but no hard disk. However, program storage is ample.

I would like to see vocal harmony integrated into a karma workstation. Also, it seems there could be a Generated Effect that would serve as a style template. PSR styles, for example, could be converted for use on the Karma, with realtime control added. However, this is just speculation.

Karma came about as a platform for helping to develop styles and demo sequences. Instead of just using the results, the author, Stephen Kay, basically incorporated the development environment in the keyboard. An analogous contrast would be between a word processing program (like an arranger) and a programming language (like the Karma) that comes with a few templates.

In summary, this is a deep arranger. This is not one to take out of the package to a gig and wing it. However, for those who want autoaccompaniment but find conventional arrangers too confining, the KARMA is certainly worth exploring.

Clif

Hi Clif

Welcome back! Congratulations on your new Karma keyboard. Does the title signify a yet another trend back to the 60's/70's?

Thanks for your insights into the new Korg Karma. Please keep us posted on your experiences with your new instrument.

Wishing you 'good Karma'....

Peace

Scott

Just to mention
i also picked up a karma
(i met clif in the store
we couldn't resist )
anyway
i know this type of stuff is not often discussed here but clif brought the karma up

i don't do the usual general arranger keyboard stuff, i will try to use the karma more for a composition assistant
this means getting the data in/out of karma and out/in a sequencing program like cubase

so after 15 mins of manual reading, i was able to

make karma the slave to cubase running on a pc - very straight forward
have the karma generated data dump into cubase - also very straight forward
have the karma play the saved data in sync to other things on cubase

the thing i had trouble with was having karma play along with the previous dumped data

from the manual this is definitely possible so i think i will learn

what i am trying to do is
make the karma engine generate some good grooves/riffs
dump them to cubase
modify them in cubase
then use that to play along with or generate some new karma stuff

the problem seems to come from the fact that karma is constantly interpreting the midi data its getting, so you play the keyboard and is generates output
if you supply that output as input - it tries to interpret it
this could be desirable in some cases
i think this can be done by reassigning the midi channels which are interpreted by karma and which are left alone

NOTE: it is entirely possible to all this sequencing IN the karma (nothing else is required) and it has some good features for this
but i want to go thru cubase so i can take advantage of my other modules
all in all i am very happy with the purchase
almost immediately out of the box i was able to generate some great grooves , save them , tweak them and generate some breaks and more grooves to layer
this was done in 1/10th the time it would take to program ,
its easy to program a simple dance drum track but try programming a dance drum track where the swing varies continuously from small to large depending on the section

i used the drums tho - i was doing a dance track so i did my own bass and synth lines
next stop - strums, arps and glissandos - cant wait to do some tracks with these

thats it for now
trevor

Hi,

First of all congrats to you Clif and Trevor.

Ever since I heard about the Karma, I've been interested in checking it out when it became available (my dealer doesn't have any yet).

I have avoided general arranger type keyboards in the past because most of them sound too cheezy and don't offer enough variation. From reading the specs, it looked like the Karma would be what I've been after. The one statement Clif mentioned was "ballroom is poorly represented".

For me, it is disappointing as I do a lot of this kind of music (ballroom and latin) as well as everything under the sun from the 50's straight through to the 2000's. Are any of the "generated effects" programmable so that I could program my own for certain kinds of music not represented? I can't get this from the reading I've been doing nor can my dealer answer that and he was at NAMM.

Looking forward to your replies since you now own one of these beasts. Thanks in advance,

fv

Hello again, Trevor. It was fun exploring the Karma with you. On your task, you should turn off the Karma function ([on/off] button next to the [assign] button) when playing back sequences from Cubase. Then the KARMA will act just like a Triton.

fv--do not be too disheartened by my report, it is not complete. There are definitely some Latin GEs. Also, more GEs are being developed to load into the Karma. My salesman at Guitar Center indicated he thought Korg was quite committed to this platform.

On the other hand, this is a good synth to buy with a 30-day guarantee--because it might take you that long to understand what it is about and whether it fits your needs. The KARMA is a step backward in some ways for me--now I need separate vocal harmony and an external controller when I want 76 keys. However, I figured what ever I bought now, I would replace in a couple of years, and I would learn more from the Karma than from a conventional arranger. In the meantime, I hope more arrangers start offering more continuous realtime control of style parameters.

People interested in KARMA should be aware there is a KorgKarma Yahoo group.

hi clif
i tried seraching for the club on yahoo
and it didn't come up
could you post a link?
any way
have you noticed something
the manual mentions i can select INT, BTH, EXT and EX2 for midi destinations for each channel
how ever i couldn't find BTH in the menu on the machine
i saw INT, OFF, EXT and EX2
i assume BTH is both internal and external which what i want to do


strange

trevor

HI clif,
did you see any new oriental sound on the KARMA or should I stay with my old TRITON PRO?

------------------
vic

or any improvment comparing ot the TRITON's sounds?

------------------
vic

Trevor: try http://groups.yahoo.com/group/korgkarma
I have not played with the MIDI connections yet.

Vic: the sounds are the same, the quality of the keyboard is less than that for Triton. It does not have an internal power supply and the key action is cheezy. I do not think you would be happy trading down unless you really want the Karma function (or like Maroon much better than silver). I have not heard any good MidEast-Oriental Generated Effects yet. If someone does make some for the Karma, then it might be worth the change. Also, the Karma cannot load samples like the Triton so you cannot even add oriental sounds that way.

I think in the future the Karma holds promise for "ethnic" music. In many cases, the traditional style format just does not accommodate non-Western idioms. However, the algorithmic underpinnings of the Karma are much more flexible than arranger styles. In fact, there is a Japanese GE that would not work at all as a style.

One more point, I no longer think that the chord recognition can be progammed for the Karma. I was fooled since different GE modules recognize different chords. However, it seems this has more to do with the note ranges assigned to each module than to the chord recognition tables. Nonetheless, the Karma can do jazz a lot better than any arranger I have heard.

Clif

Clif,

Can you please explain the reason why you say that "the Karma can do jazz a lot better than any arranger I have heard"?

Thanks,

Scott

Great to see the feedback on Karma.
I was messing with the Karma today at my store ( Guitar Center ). The Karma sounds a little crisper than the Triton . Same sound generator as Triton , but more lively .
Has anyone else noticed this while comparing both ?
How about the 4 white buttons ? They seem to be multi pads . Is that accurate ? They seem to interact with the combi mode . I was having fun with it.
Roland's JX305 was kinda of similar to the triton . The JX305 did not recognize chord changes however. So, I'll get back to you more . Thank you for the cool write up .
Dan O oneils4@home.com
or guitarcenterdan@home.com

First of all, let me issue a warning. There seems to be some unwanted noise in the Karma that three of us who have bought them have detected. All three bought with 30-day guarantees, so we are protected. Trevor noted that program A49 R&B Piano is noisy. We will keep you posted for developments.

Dan. The white buttons are simply one-finger chords. They trigger GEs just like the keys do. In some ways they are like multipads. However, the pattern is in the multipad for the Yamahas, while the pattern is in the Generated Effect in the Karma.

Scott. There are many reasons the Karma is better than other arrangers for jazz. Basically, it can improvise rather than plays repeating patterns. Also, the variety of patterns it can produce far exceeds any conventional arranger. For example, if you play a CMaj at the C-2 position, the accompaniment is different than if you play it at the C-1 position. Also, CEGC sounds different than CEG.

While I no longer think the chord recognition table of the Karma is programmable, the Karma does understand about open voicings. Also, chord recognition is on a per module basis. So using a "combi" you can have a bass pattern based on Dm and a piano pattern based on Fmaj7 going at the same time. I am wondering what you think of this as a pseudo rootless voicing?

My opinion today is that the Karma can do everything an arranger can do (except special features like vocal harmony). The main difference is that a conventional arranger is easier to master and harder to sound bad on. However, the Karma can do much more. For example, Program 001 is Piano AT. It plays like a piano but when you apply aftertouch, it adds an elaborate arpeggio.

I do not think the Karma is ideal for a gigging musician. It has an external power supply and flimsy keys. I think many of the styles you would expect in an arranger are not there yet. Also, the styles are not set up with intro and ending as such. However, with programming I do think it would be more entertaining than a conventional arranger--just because it is less monotonous.

I guess this a just a note to myself, but the Karma supports polyphonic aftertouch from an external controller. I have not hooked up my A-50 to it yet, but I will.

Regarding the "unwanted" noise mentioned in the warning above: one user reports for a different combi that the noise is an intentional low-fi effect that can be turned off at will. I will have to check the program structure for A49 R&B piano to see if it applies there too.

i know there are patches with intentional noise
for example
the is a "SD with crackle" in the drum kits
but the A49 noise is extreme

trevor

The noise on Program A49 R&B Piano appears to be intentional. It can be switched off using button SW1 above the joystick.

oops
just hand me a big helping of humble pie
the "noise" is intentional
just color me outdated

trevor

Trevor,
Dont feel bad about it man. I thought the same thing was wrong with my Yamaha EX-7 when I first bought it, of course I felt like an idiot when I realized the actual name of the sound had (LoFi)as the first 4 letters. It's a great effect too... Gives you that nice jazz sound of the early days, but the one on the Yamaha goes a step further. It uses split mode and velocity switching. The upper hand is a really mellow sounding grand (typical of the recording technics from the day) and in the lower hand there is a upright bass layered with a single upper cymbal hit. The velocity switching comes in when you're doing a nice walking bass line with your left hand and if you hit it a little harder rather than get the single upper cymbal hit you get a crash cymbal.. If anyone can get there hands on an EX-7 try it out.. It's a great sound..

Squeak

I know this is coming really late but I received my first shippment of KARMA keyboards today.
At first I didn't think much of the Pad effects until I realized that I hadn't turned on the karma mode button. When I did I was really impressed with the sound enhancements these 4 little buttons provide. My question is this to those of you using this board. If you only have four pads, how can you manage to change enough chords like you would on an arranger keyboard? I don't think many songs only use 4 chord changes, and although you can change the chord voicings, you'd have to get into editing to do this and it wouldn't be useful while playing a song. Am I missing something here? Remember all you players, I'm a music store owner and not a piano player. I love technology, but it sometimes takes a long time to get things through to me!
George Kaye

Hi George

The four white buttons on the Karma are "merely" chord trigger buttons. They themselves have nothing to do with the autoaccompaniment and other effects produced by the Karma.

Normally, you would enter chords as on any other arranger, i.e., using the black and white keys. However, what effects are triggered and which keys trigger them changes from program to program and combi to combi. (It is as though the split point changes every time you select a new style. A good way to see what is going on it to push the "note" tab on the display (actually the function button below the note tab.

Since, effectively, the section of the keyboard required to trigger an effect changes from program to program, it would be hard to audition the programs and combis from the black and white keys. By pre-assigning chords to the white buttons, Korg has provided a way to audition each program and combi. Think of the white buttons as four program/combi audition buttons. They are not needed to play the Karma.

However, since they are programmable, you can program them with chords of your choice. So if there is a chord that you have trouble fingering, you can assign it to a white button to make life easier.

I hope this helps.

Clif

P.S. The Karma comes with 384 combis (in banks A, B, and E) already programs. Most of these do not act like arrangers at all. An example of an arranger combi is "E087 Caroly".

[This message has been edited by Clif Anderson (edited 03-31-2001).]

Cliff,
Playing your example of E087 helped alot. What I could see was that the B module of Karma was assigned to the upper part of the keyboard and A,C and D modules were on the left and are triggering "patterns" so the overall effect is exactly like a arranger on the left and a melody on the right. Now, if I could understand the technology (need a Korg Rep to come to the store) maybe I could see how hard this would be to make some of these up with different style types. I wonder if you can find Bossa Novas, etc.......probably not. I'm thinking to much like my arranger kind of guy I am. I'm driving the guys in my store crazy right now......they want to know why I would even want to make Karma into an arranger...........they think I have too many arranger now!..............Never too many arrangers for me!
George Kaye

Hi George

Trying to make an arranger out of the Karma is a good idea because it will be a better arranger in many ways that anything that is available. Just do not overlook what else it does.

Try combi B121 Neo Bossa Band for the Bossa Nova.

Clif