I got a problem and it's very disappointing. Diagnosed with heart disease January 25, I had a stent procedure. Sixty grand and it didn't work. (Or I've plugged up another artery.) Here's what a stent looks like.



I'm plugging up again. Went to ER two weeks ago. Now on a more aggressive therapy. Added blood pressure med now, I'm on a more strict diet and I am taking several supplements. (Think alternative medicine.) I hope I can reverse this.

They want to do another catheterization and it is scheduled for December 27. Heck, I'll be dead or fixed by then. Plus, I don't want to do it if at all possible. I will if I have to. But I want to try to reverse it. (Some research shows you can.)

If I have to have coronary bypass surgery, that could cost a quarter of a million dollars! And I have no insurance. I guess the state hospital would do it.

But maybe I can reverse it.

My questions:

1. Do you know anyone who has had a stent put in? Have they had no problems again and if so, how long ago was the stent procedure? If they have had problems again, what did they do? Another stent? Coronary bypass surgery? Alternative medicine treatment? (Hey, call your friend if you don't know! S/he probably would like to hear from you anyway!)

2. Do you know anyone who has had coronary bypass surgery? (Same questions as above.)

Thanks for responding. This will give me an informal feel for how many people have further problems. I read one place where it said that 10% of people with stents plug up again. Another book I read said it's 30-40%. My informal asking around is running higher than that. The docs don't tell you that!

And now there is a controversy over whether drug-coated stents (like mine), which were supposed to be BETTER than uncoated stents are actually WORSE.

I realize that a stent is a patch and does not cure heart disease. I have done pretty well this year with lifestyle changes but now, they must be radical if I am to beat this.

:::

Please think of people in your life who have had stents or bypass and let me know if they have had to have another stent or bypass surgery.

P.S. Also, if you know of anyone who decided against stent / bypass surgery and chose something else, what was it and how did they do?

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Bill
Yamaha PSR2000

[This message has been edited by SemiLiveMusic (edited 10-19-2006).]

Bill, sorry to hear about the complications. Email Gary Diamond, he knows a LOT about this stuff.
Call me if I can help.
DonM

Okay, but that's not what I asked. I wasn't seeking advice, although I enjoy reading all comments. Or maybe you're saying he might know some real world numbers.

I simply wanted people to tell if they know anyone who has had a stent or bypass and how have they done. Like you know Hank's wife. She had a stent put it, a few months later, had to do it again, months later, she had to have bypass surgery. I know another lady who had a stent and months later, it plugged up and she had to have bypass. My dad had bypass, six years later, bypass again, and a few years after that, a stroke. I know two men who have had stents and no problems but they have only had them in a couple of years.

There are some alternative medicine docs who say stents and bypass surgery flat out are not worth it except in a small percentage of cases where they must be done. And one of the biggest money machines ever built. Much of mainstream medicine promotes stents / bypass as routine and the only options.

I'm hoping to get a decent amount of responses from this forum and another forum so I can get more real world examples.

Know anyone else other than Mrs. Hank?

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Bill
Yamaha PSR2000

[This message has been edited by SemiLiveMusic (edited 10-19-2006).]

Bill sorry to hear this.....Gary is the one to talk to hes experienced in the medical field....I have many clients who after having a Stent put in have had no problems, & are up and about normally quet soon, but everyone is different...thank goodness for modern medical technology today.
Hope it all goes well for you.

Good Luck

Bill,

The percentage of failures with stents is relatively low, particularly if the stent is the newer type that is medicated. The older stents were not medicated and required that the patient take blood thinners, some with nasty side effects, for the rest of the lives. The new ones allow the patient to take Plavix and aspirin, and in most instances the Plavix only has to be taken for 3 to 6 months, but the aspirins are forever.

Stents are for those individuals with early onset of coronary artery disease and made it possible to open those blockages without cracking open their chest and doing major surgery. Bypass surgery, which essentially is a procedure where a piece of vein from the patient's leg, or the mamory artery, is installed in place of the blocked coronary artery. While the procedure has really improved over the past few decades, it's still major surgery.

As for reversing the condition, that's really not possible. Most patients with significant coronary artery disease got that way from a high-fat, high-cholestoral, high-carbohydrate diet. You can change your eating habits and slow, and possibly stop any advancement of the condition, but nothing will reverse the damage and artery clogging that has taken place. Keep in mind that the artery clogging process takes lots of years, and once the arteries are narrowed down to where the blood cells have to line up in single file for the blood to flow to the heart muscle, a single, tiny clot could cause that flow to cease. This is why it's so important to stay on a regimen of aspirin, and Plavix if prescribed.

The only way to determine if you have a blockage is cardiac catherization. While you can have a heart scan performed, the test is not all that accurate, especially in women. I should know. Just last week my wife had a stent put in here left, anterior decending coronary artery, a very important vessel that was 90 percent blocked. Ironically, we both had heart scans done in July and her scan report said her coronary arteries were completely open. Apparently, sometime between last October and this past September, when she had to get an EKG for a preoperative evaluation to have her knee replaced, she had a heart attack. Her regular doctor missed this entirely, and fortunately, the anesthesiologist picked it up the day before surgery. Had she undergone general anesthesia for the knee should could have went into cardiac arrest and died on the operating table.

She's home now, went back to work just five days after the stent was put in place, and with luck she will be able to have the knee replaced in January.

Hope this is of some help Bill,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

There are MD's and researchers who disagree with you. Are you familiar with Dean Ornish? He wrote a book about reversing heart disease about ten years ago.

In our studies we found that even severe heart disease often begins to reverse when people followed the lifestyle and diet recommendations in our program. In fact, 99% of the patients were able to stop or reverse the progression of heart disease by making the diet and lifestyle changes I recommend. We published this in JAMA in 1995 and also in 1998.

Source

There are other docs who say it can be reversed but he's probably the most famous one. Do you feel totally confident in your statement, Gary? Thanks for your response.

BTW, this week, I read a study that questioned using the drug-coated stents. That they may be WORSE, not better. More research is needed but it was a surprising report.

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Bill
Yamaha PSR2000

Bill,

I had a minor heart attack on June 19th of this year. I had 2 stents put in one artery. Last week I had a stress test with a heart scan and so far so good.

My father, who is 71, had a heart attack 6 years ago. He had a stent put in. He had always excecised religiously but he had a poor diet. He immediately changed his eating habits to a very low fat diet. He's had several heart caths. since including one just 2 months ago. There's been no progression of the disease.

I hope this helps. Good luck!

Bob

No progression of disease but several caths? Why has he had several caths, Bob?


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Bill
Yamaha PSR2000

Bill,
I had a hear attack in May of 2001 and had 5 stents put in; 4 in one artery and one in a smaller, lower artery. Six months later I had to go back in for what everyone thought was a scar growing on the stents. Turned out the stents were fine, but I had developed another blockage at the intersection of my main artery that would not permit another stent or catheterization. So I had double by-pass surgery. Two years ago I was sent in for failing a stress test. The results were a false positive. My stents are fine and there is no scarring from the bypass.

Reversing cardiovascular disease is definitely possible, but only over the long run. Take your meds and work on your diet and exercise; that will help. And go get the catheterization - we would miss you if you were wrong.

Wow, I didn't know they could do that. What's the deal there, did you have a really long continuous area of plaque?

I am also surprised you plugged up in another place within six months. Although, I know of one doc/author who says that the procedure itself is damaging itself. That threading that catheter through your arteries and moving it around and doing stuff can damage the artery and cause lesions. Which can become blockages. I dunno but that's what he says.

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Bill
Yamaha PSR2000

Hey, what do you want. With a name like Pawlowski and living in Wyandotte,a Polish suburb of Detroit, there was kielbasa, meatballs, pierogi, pig's feet, duck soup and all that fantastic artery-clogging food. Fish was deep-fried only and potatoes were at almost every meal. Eggs every day.

I'll bet some of you got hardening of the arteries just reading that. Yeah, diet is my biggest enemy.

Four stents - never really asked how or why, but they're still working.

Bill,

When researchers talk about reversing coronary artery disease, what they are referring to is known as collateral circulation. Essentially, a person that makes dramatic changes in their diet and goes on an exercise program, one that is involves cardiac workouts such as treadmill, the overall bloodflow in the heart muscle improves. The reason behind this improvement is the creation of hundreds of tiny blood vessels that branch out from the three, main coronary arteries.

Areas that have significant buildup of plaque, which is essentially calcified fat deposits, will remain the same. To date, there has been no effective method of dissolving the calcification, thus my statement about reversing the disease. As I stated, you can slow the progression, and in some cases, stop the progression, but reversal is still not a possibility, at least not where the currently affected are partially blocked.

My background in this area is quite extensive, and while I no longer am active in the cardio-pulmonary and cardio-vascular fields, I still keep up with the latest investigative studies. This is mainly through friends that work in the nation's leading medical institutions, including Johns Hopkins and University of Maryland Hospitals, folks that do this every day for a living.

Most of the current research pertaining to possible reversals, including some that have been published in JAMA and other leading medical publications, pretty much spell out the paramters that lead them to this conclusion. However, most also say the genetic component of the disease is still a problem that will take decades to conquer.

I sincerely hope everything works out for you,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

Gary, I am going to have to disagree for now. I am almost certain that Dean Ornish' research (and other research I have read) showed reversal of arterial placque. A decrease / shrinkage in the size of blockages. I remember seeing photos. His research was quite revolutionary. I don't think JAMA would have just taken his word on it; he'd have to have proof to get published. I'll see if I can find something to back up what I say.

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Bill
Yamaha PSR2000

The article below specifically states that it can be reversed and cites studies.

Ornish, at the University of California San Francisco School of Medicine, reported the findings of his Lifestyle Heart Trial in the British medical journal Lancet in 1990. Regression was observed in 82 percent of those cardiac patients in the lifestyle intervention group following a regimen of aerobic exercise, low-fat vegetarian diet, smoke cessation and group behavioral support. By contrast, 53 percent of the control patients exhibited plaque progression. This is the first time in the history of medicine that regression, accompanied by a significant reduction in cardiac events, has been achieved with lifestyle changes alone.

link

Here are some more.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/sardi/sardi42.html http://www.thedoctorwillseeyounow.com/articles/heart/reversal_11/ http://www.washington.edu/newsroom/news/2001archive/11-01archive/k112801.html http://www.csmc.edu/6189.html

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Bill
Yamaha PSR2000

Bill about 8 years or so ago my mother had what I call the balloon procedure. Six months or so later she had to have by-pass surgery. It may have been triple. She was around 79 0r 80 at the time. Other than being 87 now and a bit of a memory problem She's getting along.

I hope everything turns out fine for you. At the Shrevereport jam you looked like a mighty young man compared to me and Don. Take care friend.

I've been taking an asprin a day now for maybe 12 to 15 years. When I cut my self now I bleed for a while. I use to cut my self often when doing brick and I would clot up in seconds. I'm convinced that asprin thins the blood for easier flowing for me.

Bill,

A stent is FAR less evasive than a coronary bypass. If a stent works to put off a MAJOR surgery, it would be the conservative way to go.

The difference is MINOR vs MAJOR surgery and the complications respectively.

It depends on what your condition and professional medical opinions are currently. If they suggest the conservative approach, chances are you are not in the target range at this point for coronary surgery. You must get several opinions before making a decision. Your cardiologist best knows the options.

Best of luck. Keep us posted.

zuki

Yep, baby aspirin a day.

There are many heart healthy things you can take for prevention but of all, I'd say that fish oil is recommended as strongly as anything. Consider taking that. If you like it, consider eating cold water fish as often as you can, say, three times a week. Salmon, sardines, tuna, etc. Has to be cold water fish. Wild, not farm raised. But also consider taking fish oil. It's not expensive and helps with MANY things, such as arthritis. But for sure, helping your heart.

BTW, I now carry a full aspirin wrapped in foil in my pocket. Word to the wise... if you feel you are having a heart attack, chew a full aspirin as you are calling 911. It can greatly help chance of survival and reduce the severity. EDIT: For this, it's a full aspirin, not a baby aspirin.


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Bill
Yamaha PSR2000

[This message has been edited by SemiLiveMusic (edited 10-19-2006).]

i'm 59
3 heart attacks at $120,000 each
3 stents at $45,000 each
last one in 2005
now been diagnose with prostate cancer.
treatment will be lupron shots a 3 months
intervals at $3,000 each and up to $65,000 for full treatment. not having insurance,i'm been told to
stop playing and go on welfare in hopes to get treatment. if this don't work i have 2 years to live.
my last day of playing is dec 31.
with regard to the stents, i've had no problems, it sure beats bypass which is well into $210,000

and we complain about the prices of our arrangers? imagine the keyboard i could get
with what i've spent so far ;0. at least i'm alive to enjoy them. oh well,you can't take it with you.

Bill, I had by-pass surgery in 1906, my main artery was 95% clogged. It was done with a new method. A four inch cut on my left side was all that was needed, new tools were invented that could hold my heart in position while they operated.
It’s ten years latter and I feel great. I hope that helps, good luck.

John C.

Bill, Sorry to hear about your heart health issues. I would recommend your see a Naturopathic Doctor. They actually study nutrition and how it affects the body (you are what you eat is a true statement). They would be able to answer your question regarding diet & exercise and if it could reverse plaques. Sounds like your are already seeking alternate therapies. If you haven't seen a naturopath yet, that would be my recommendation. As my wife tells me, "Don't self medicate, ask a professional". The level of expertise on some Naturopathic doctors is amazing.
Take a look at Dr. Mercola's website as well.
Starkeeper

My father had triple bypass surgery 15 years ago, and he's still doing good. He had a massive heart attack, which resultet in the surgery. After his recovery he's been ticking away fine ever since. He's now in his late 60s and doing quite allright. He still does yearly tests to see if his arteries stay unblocked, and they havent clogged up yet.

Doc-Z

My dad 11 years ago had angeoplastie and then a stent put in. I don't know all the specifics, was only 17 years old at the time. Anyway, no kind of bypass surgery or anything. He is doing great to this day. He is not even taking asperin. He is taking a lot of vitamins and supplements. One thing he did a lot right after his procedure was chelation. Several treatments of chelation, and now he is still on aural chelation.

anecdotal evidence I know, but all I can say is he is doing great.

Sorry to hear about your very serious problems.
I have a limited amount of impute for you.
My wife Jann had the same problem as Gary's wife in the same place, (see above). Jann had been an RN many years ago and recognized that she was having a heart attack in her office.
At the hospital they installed one stent and put her on 4 full time prescriptions and gave her a 5th prescription of Nitro. I asked the doctor how long she would need to take these expensive perscriptions. He advised she would take them as long as she wanted to live. she also takes a 81mg aspirin daily, has changed her diet and is now getting some exercise. Four and 1/2 years later now and no further problems. She has passed her stress tests ok. she did get a change of prescription because one of them was starting to cause some liver problems.
Take care of yourself, get second opinions and make your decision for life.
Best to you and yours,
Bebop

[This message has been edited by BEBOP (edited 10-22-2006).]