Have you guys seen this? Anyone using it?
http://www.bose.com/musicians/index.jsp

Calling Uncle Dave--Calling Uncle Dave...

UD has been using the system for quite some time now, and I've heard it--it sounds incredible.

Gary

If you do a search, you'll find it's been discussed on the forum. Great sounding system.

$2,000 per speaker. I auditioned the Bose PAS(both on a gig & in a studio environment), and when used in conjunction with my Yamaha Tyros keyboard playing a stereo sampled instrument, was UNDER impressed. Then again, Uncle Dave utilizes it and claims it sounds terrific with his Yamaha PSR3000, so I suppose it's: different strokes (ears) for different folks. The only way the Bose would work for me is if I had TWO, but that would cost: $4,000. - Scott

As an owner of a small Performer's Cafe in NJ. after hearing the Bose PAS system, I was so impressed that I just had to purchase and install the Bose PAS as the only PA system to be used as the only PA to be used in the cafe. The unique aspect to the cafe is, that as a performer for 40+ years, having worked in literally hundreds of nightclubs throughout the country (most of us have had to put up with a single electric outlet always the one attached to the refrigerator) and in most cases only a single lamp over our heads, I have been able to equip the cafe with permanent house equipment which includes Bass, Guitar and Keyboard amps, PA system and Mics a variety of instruments including guitars, keyboards and a decent drum set as well as a variety of effects boxes, recording, DJ as Karaoke equipment. The idea is that musicians as well a stand-up comedians, poetry and stage play performers can feel comfortable working in a room that has built by a musician for musicians.

Now on to the reason for this post. Ok the good news is that I don't have to set up and break down every night, as mentioned above the equipment is permanently installed. I have all of my keyboards and guitars going through either 2 or three separate amps and only vocals are going through the Bose PAS. Now that's almost true....any single guitar player has his/her mic acoustic or direct connect acoustic/electric guitar going through the Bose PAS. When there is a group and just had an eight piece New Orleans 8 piece play at the cafe.

The room seats 50 and can comfortablly handle approximate 15 more standing. Every group that has played in the room from Acoustic folk/easy listening to Django Reinhardt, to Jazz to Dixeland to Southern Rock has come back (with only their instruments) and each has commented as to how good the sound and monitoring is.

If you are interested in seeing the room, check out our webcam, our website and/or our cafe.

Art www.heres2thearts.com

Art's a smart man. Listen to him !

The Bose is not for everyone, but it has never failed to please in every venue I use it in. It's a different concept in sound reproduction, and you need to alter your thinking to get the full effect of just HOW good it makes you sound. You need to embrace this new technology before you can get the full benefit.
The controversy with stereo vs. mono is not as clear cut as it sounds because most conventional stereo systems cannot fill a room as well as just one mono Bose tower can. You get an added fullnes with a stereo system because of the motion and panning, but the displacement is not as efficient as the Bose, so you have areas of the room that hear the signal differently.
The Bose spreads a uniform, balanced, hi-fi sound to EVERY corner of the room, and even into surrrounding rooms with unbelievable ease and clarity.

The Yamaha acoustic grand piano sample sounds (slightly)better in stereo, but that's just about the only sound that I hear a real difference in. I tweaked my sound to work better and I really like the result. The bass, drums, vocals etc. are all so much better sounding through this system. They are natural and crisp, and carry through the room like nothing else.

Do I miss stereo? Sometimes, but hardly ever since the switch to the Bose.
There is nothing, even in the $5000 range that I would consider swithing to - regardless of size, weight or brand name. Quite simply - the Bose has performed better in every situation I use it in, so I can't argue with the success.

In a live room where people are located in all corners of the space ..... nothing can fill the room as well as the PAS. Nothing.
Stereo works best from the front only, and then again - best in the center. This system sounds like there is a speaker on every wall. It's almost freaky how good it works. After all this time .... I'm still amazed each time I sing through it.

I give it two thumbs and two EARS up !

[This message has been edited by Uncle Dave (edited 11-05-2004).]

Still waiting for the PAS to arrive to Norway.
After these rave reviews by people using them, I'm really looking forward to hearing them. After UD's repeated praise, and Art's sudden entry from far left , I value their comments based on years and years of experience. As for stereo, get two cylinders, problems solved,or not?

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Roy-Andrè

Art,

I would personally like to give you a "virtual handshake" for your committment to the arts and the artists behind all that creativity.

Your establishment is a breath of fresh air and we need more passionate entrepeneurs like you to further the arts. This isn't about the equipment or environment your supply to your artists, but more towards your philosophy and committment to the arts.

Well done!!! And BTW, welcome to our little musical oasis on the net!!

Regards,
Al

I was so impressed with the Bose PAS system that I can honestly say if I were going back to the nite-club performances I would have a pair of them. Granted, it would cose me about $5,000 for both systems, plus a sub, but the unequalled sound would be well worth the expense.

Art, welcome to the forum. Lots of good folks here, most of whom are willing to shre an enormous quantity of helpful information and experience.

Gary

I've had Pose PAS on trial for 6 weeks...and must agree with scottyee...GreatSystem...butYam/Other 'Stereo Sampled sounds, are degraded significantly when summed to mono...this is a technical fact...&..in my discussuins with Bose..they confirm same..and cannot do much about it.. The only way to maintain real quality sound with PAS is to have 2 units...I Europe they are costing 3000Euro
i.e. 3800$.per unit. I dont think it will fly with many Yam users...3k & T's best sounds are 'Stereo Sampled' For almost all other applications it is superb.

LeoD



------------------
LeoD...Committed to Live
Performance & use of M.Pads

You can tweak those Yamaha stereo samples to sound better in a mono situation.
How can you trash the benefits of SO many other advantages to accomodate the one or two weak links in Yamaha's sound banks?
Here's how I see it:
Voice - better in PAS
Bass - Better in PAS
Drums - Better in PAS
Piano - Slightly better in stereo

That's my order of importance too, so if the weakest link is the piano sound - then fix it! I did, and I love the result.

Adding a second tower for stereo is not a "fix all" solution. The way this unit spreads the sound is so different from anything else you know. It's almost as if a second one is a waste. I use two, 2 nights a week....and I've gone to using them in dual mono because the stereo separations is not as pronounced as it is in a system that is more directional. These poles are SO efficient ..... you really just have to find the sweet spot and then enjoy the ride.

Naturally, if you don't set it up to sound the best ... then it won't. You can't just plug in and expect it to behave like your Mother's old PA. It's a new desigh and it works differently than all the rest. ALL the rest.

Believe me - as fickle as I am with gear - I'd dump these in a heartbeat if I thought that anyone made a better sound system for me, but so far in EVERY catagory, the PAS has proven to be a clear winner to reproduce my sound for my clients.

The weakness is in the Yamaha samples .... not the sound system.

Art...
Congratulations on Heres 2 The Arts. A neat concept and one that I hope will be very successful for you.

I am familiar with Maple Shade...but have not heard of Maple Wood. Where is it?
Eddie

Has anyone tried the PAS with a Roland keyboard? Is the same problem with their sampled piano and/or other sounds?
Dave, you tested the VA-7, didn't you?


------------------
Roy-Andrè

Uncle Dave said it all. I use the BOSE with my Tyros, TC Helicon Voice works, an Alesis Multi-mixer and with my partner who sings and sounds like Englebert/Tom Jones, we sound like an orchestra. People are amazed as to how clear the sound is and where it's coming from. The only drawback is when we get a extra louder, the limiter clicks in and lays back the sound. I have the Mackie 450 and the FBT MAxx 4A, but mostly use the Bose PAS. It's light, and easy to put together. I eventually thought about a second pole, but after just reading what Uncle Dave wrote, I will now tend to not buy one just for stereo, unless I use a second pole for DeeJaying. I have the second sub-woofer.

UD. You state you tweak the Yammy samples to sound better on the PAS in Mono. Does this mean you treat all the voices that you would normally use in you registration set ?.

Dave I am NOT criticising your comments, but It would be interesting to what sort of tweaking is required because myself coming from working in sound most of my working life, I have not managed to transfer a stereo sample to sound better in mono.

[This message has been edited by Graham UK (edited 11-05-2004).]

It's NOT possible to get a stereo sample to sound as good 'in mono' as it did in stereo. You lose the spatial ambience that true stereo provides. In the case of Yamaha stereo samples which also utilize stereo 'effects', when mixed to MONO, these effects are completely canceled out, leaving only the (phase canceled) raw sample heard. Yuck! I returned to the music store and with the assistance of the pro audio mgr, we tried tweaking the Bose PAS EQ settings till the cows came home, but were still never able to achieve (even close to) the realistic sound quality of the stereo piano sample as when heard thru discreet left/right speakers. I admit that a single Bose PAS unit sounds downright EXCEPTIONAL for vocals, acoustic instruments, & for mono electronic keyboard samples, but not stereo. I cannot afford to compromise the sound quality of the acoustic piano. - Scott

Scott,
What you're missing here is the realization that the small, limited field that showcases the stereo imaging is lost when you get 15 feet from the stage area. There are sound cancellations that occur all around the room from natural revrberations and you add to the mess with speakers that "throw" the sound in a conventional manner.

The tweaking needed to make the sample is specific to my head, my velocity settings and my rooms is just that: specific.
It's pointless to argue that stereo in itself is better than mono - it can;t be proven. An acoustic piano is a mono instrument and the natural reverberations of the room make it fuller and more spacious. The issusion that stereo creates is limited to the immediate seating/listening area. The reality that the Bose creates can fill a room the size of a football field where everyone hears the same, hi-fi sound in all areas of the room. No conventional stereo system does that without rear speakers and time delay devices.

You're kidding yourself if you think that stereo carry further than the dance floor. It's like flash photography. There is a finite limit to how far the image travels....and it's not that far.

The Bose adds a new, powerful dimension to the sound that is superior to the aspect of stereo when compared back to back.
I love stereo sound .... when I'm in the sweet spot. Unfortunately, I'm usually the only one in that sweet spot at work.

I wish you all the best in your quest for the sound that floats your boat. For me - it's called PAS.
P ositively
A wesome
S ound

Yeah.

btweengigs,

Maplewood is about 10 miles west of Newark Airport. We are in Essex county and as I mentioned earlier we are a cafe dedicated to all of the arts. We work with local painters, musicians and all forms of stage performers from comedians on Monday nights, Open mic nights on Tuesday (music + poetry + drama and book reading and even Karaoke), Thursdays (more often then not single and small group musicians), Wednesday is our Jazz night (with our house Jazz Duo, Bob Ackerman and Pam Purvis), Friday is "Guest Band" night (normally picked from one of the open mic nights), Saturday, the Amazing and Wonderful Art & Willie (my wife and myself) and Sunday night, my personal favorite, Jam night. I get to start playing and anyone who wants to join me (vocalists, we've had violinists, pianists, guitar, sax, oboe and even a Sousaphone) just join in. This has proven to form some very interesting combinations.

Certainly any and all Synth Zone members are welcome if you should happen to be in the area.

BTW, I'm still using an I3 as my main keyboard controller along with an X4 and and XV5050. If you get a chance to come to the cafe you'll see that I actually get to play both the keyboard and my 1962 Fender Jazzmaster at the same time....strange but true. Oh, I also have an Ovation 12 string that has a sound I think you'll fall in love with when you hear it. These are in addition to the Bose PAS system, Roland Keyboard Amp, Peavy Base and Guitar amps. Naturally, there are a variety of other toys that some of you electronic musicians I'm sure will appreciate.

Stop by anytime, we'll try to make you you'll feel at home,

Art G

Uncle Dave & Scott,
There are a few other issues with Bose PAS which should be aired. First let me re-iterate my previous comment that PAS is without doubt a new dimension in sound distribution, & Bose deserve full applause for their pioneering of this technology.
However as it applies to arranger kbds,it is wrong for Uncle Dave to be so dismissive of the stereo issue...I've also read up on Bose & other comentators on this one....Forget about stereo for a moment and just think about sound seperation. All modern KBDs use stereo fields for this purpose as well as the Stereo thing.
I will bet you that within the not too distant future Bose will bring out their PAS version which will address both sound seperation & Stereo all at once in one package.....Just Watch..

Next issue (for Kbds) is control of bass in varying environments. you cannot control vol / intensity of PAS Bass without affecting all other sounds on the KBD..that is in your 20 min. setup time before the gig. The best way to achieve this is via a seperate powered B'bin with Vol. control.

Next issue...PAS really excells in 'OPEN' environments i.e open hall with raised stage, or in Church or in open air.
However, because of the wave dispersion pattern...sound from PAS is easily blocked by close crowd situations ...a dozen or so people standing in front of you...PAS is distributing from floor level to about 7' high...unlike conventional systs where spks are pole mounted.

In conclusion, I believe that these are strong arguments for Bose to address as they move forward on this one,and especially as Stereo Sampled Sounds is the future for KBD Mfgs.
There are 2 different objectives being pursued by KBD and AMP Mfgs.
KBD Mfg...best poss reproduction of individual instument sounds.
AMP Mfg...best poss distribution, dispertion
& overall sound Quality...multipurpose.

Eventually they will each be forced to recognise the need to meet both objectives...however that is to be achieved.

I have already put these issues to Bose...so we'll see what happens.

I can only hope we're not left waiting too long...and don't forget all of the other PA/Amp guys watching on from the sideline...they wont be too far behind either.

LeoD..2cents worth.



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LeoD...Committed to Live
Performance & use of M.Pads

If you don't run stereo with the Bose and you plugin a keyboard doing Hammond and Leslie simulation, don't you only hear half of the leslie spin? Isn't that going to sound like vibrato instead of a spin effect?

royandreno,
I have a Roland XV-88 full size synth that I run through a PAS with 1 subwoofer.....my patches sound awesome. I think Roland does a great job of sampling down their stereo sounds. When I bought the keyboard, I played a lot of different brands and checked out the stereo piano patch using only L line out into a mono keyboard amp. The Roland samples were the best hands down. I currently own 2 XV-88s and 2 Bose Systems. (one for the studio/gigs and one for home).
Jeff www.theunmentionables.com

royandreno,
I have a Roland XV-88 full size synth that I run through a PAS with 1 subwoofer.....my patches sound awesome. I think Roland does a great job of sampling down their stereo sounds. When I bought the keyboard, I played a lot of different brands and checked out the stereo piano patch using only L line out into a mono keyboard amp. The Roland samples were the best hands down. I currently own 2 XV-88s and 2 Bose Systems. (one for the studio/gigs and one for home).
Jeff www.theunmentionables.com

[/QUOTE]

Thanks Jeff!
I checked out your web page, really cool! I think you are the guys that have been modelling the Bose stage advertizing drawings!
At least you are good ambassadours for the system. Bet you have a tremendous sound.
Thanks again,



------------------
Roy-Andrè

About a month ago I sold:
1 Yamaha EMX5000
2 Yamaha SW118 Subwoofers
2 Yamaha SW115 Club Speakers
1 DBX Drive Pa (crossover/EQ etc)
1 Crown CE1000 power amp
1 QSC power amp
2 Speaker Poles (tripod)
2 Speaker Poles that fit into the sub

I bought a pair of Bose PAS and 4 subs.

I guess the first comment I have is that when dealing with Bose -it's not about the economics but the sound, and in this case ease of set up. The above was alot to carry around (although not necessarily always used at the same time)

I'm a bit of an impulse buyer and when I came upon or shall I say learned of the Bose PAS I said self, "I got to get me couple of these". I'll be honest, I was tired of hauling all my PA gear from the basement, loading it into my pickup, then unloading it all for the gig, setting it up, sound checking, tweaking, worrying about monitor mixing with the front of house mix etc. It was mostly the haulin' up and down the basement stairs (and not pissin' off my wife when I scratches the wood floor in the kitchen).

The first pole and 4 subs arrived a couple of days prior to the second pole. Of course I could only plug the two subs in. I run all my keyboards through an Alesis 12R rack mixer when I'm gigging. I also use the TC Helicon Voiceworks as opposed to the poorly executed vocal harmonization in the Tyros. In the past this was a stereo feed to the front of house speakers and a mono mix to the monitors.

I ran the monitor "mix" into channel 1 of the PAS and ran the TC Helicon directly to the PAS and not out of the Alesis. I set everything flat on the PAS. This of course all being in my basement. Then I played a couple of midi files, followed by a few Tyros styles (to hear the megavoicing). I will agree the piano wasn't quite as good as I would have hoped, but overall this speaker rocked. It was as loud 12 inches away from it as it was 12 feet. Very very crisp. The vocals were the best I've ever heard and I thought they sounded pretty good coming from the Yamaha club speakers.

I'm in two bands. The first one is a classic rock band with "real" musicians. Typically I would run a stereo feed to the main board and then run a keyboard monitor mix to a speaker behind me and then one sitting between the drummer and lead guitar player. As far as I know the sound was fine both through the main pa and the monitor -although the monitor (being mono) never really allowed for the full sound many of the Tyros panel voices can give. The Roland VR-760 performance keyboard actually tending to sound better mono than stereo. If the front of house speakers are too far apart the "rotor" effect can sound a little weird going back and forth across the mains. I then tend to run that keyboard mono. It sounds fine (going stereo) when it's set up in my small studio and I'm listening to all the boards through a pair of Yamaha active monitors.

The speakers are so tall (or my basement is so short) that I had to cut a hole in the ceiling dry wall to allow enough space to pull the top portion of the L1 off of the bottom portion. (kind of funny)

When gigging with the rock band my intent is to only use 1 PAS and 1 sub. This will take the place of two speakers and either the EMX5000 (which wasn't light) or a separate MG10 and power amp, two speaker stands. Plus, I'm using 2 channels on the main and I'm tired of fighting with the lead singer on volumn issues. So, when I gig now what I and the rest of band hear on stage I hope will be enough for the audience. We do not have the funds necessary to elimintate the band's pa, bass amp and of course my guitarist is a bit of a purest and as threatened death to us all if we eliminate is Marshal stacks. I think the Bose PAS and 1 sub will be quite fine for this band.

The second "band" I'm in will present a number of issues that have been discussed in this thread. This band is actually a duo. All of our material is based on midi files played by the Tyros. I add additional instrumentation and solo work and then my partner plays acoustic guitar. He sings 80% of the material with myself adding harmony based upon the TC Helicon.

I purchased the second PAS being concerned about stereo. Most of the midi files we use are professional grade and most I have tweaked substantionally to make use of Tyros panel voices, to eliminate redundant tracks or to add tracks where appropriate based on what I'm going to play. In my basment, with two PAS and 4 subs the Tyros sounded....simply awesome. My voice never sounded so good - and belive me that's saying something. (we ran the Tyros in Stereo) Tom's acoustic guitar was right in the mix. It was very clean. You could hear him hit the strings etc. A very very crisp sound, yet there was plenty of bottom end. I could not really crank it up because I was afraid that glassware on a bar shelf might vibrate off.

Then I plugged in my stereo and listend to some old "Floyd". WOW!!!

We are making arrangements to set up our new gear and try it out before actually using it. I agree that some of the Tyros sampled sounds may in fact sound better in stereo, on the other hand if one is sitting to the extreme left or right, one is not going to hear the correct sound. The bottom line too, is I wonder just how many people in the audience would really know if it's stereo or mono.

At any rate, these are truely awesome speakers and will save my back countless future surgeries. I have never heard a speaker system that sounds this good and believe you me, I have gone through quite a few. It's going to be a little strange for the both of us having everything behind us. By design my vocals will come out of one side and his will come out of the other. We are very interested in understanding just what that will sound like "out front". We both have wireless mics so of course will try it out. I think we'll send the Tyros out in stereo and the other two keyboards (Fantom X8 and Vk-740) mono to the PAS behind me. Tom's guitar will more than likely be just behind him. It's going to be a wild ride.

If you're just starting to think about amps, and speakers and compressors and all the "gearhead" stuff I would highly recommend trying out the PAS.

....by the way.....they look pretty cool too.

Well, that's my 5cents.






[This message has been edited by smythrocks (edited 11-09-2004).]

I have no trouble getting a good, solid bass response from my system with one or two bins. They don't have a separate vol control, but the overal bass pot on the remote adds just the right freq for my taste.

The issue of crowds in front of you has not come up for me yet. Even in tight situations, the height seems to carry the sound where it needs to go. I suppose if the conditions were horrid - a pole mounted speaker WAY above the heads of the corwd COULD carry better, but I'd need to see it in each situation to verify that. So far .... my big mouth is amplified in every corner of every room I go to........... not sure if that's good or bad (kidding, of course)

Smyth, are you saying here, that even with your TWO PAS units (total $4,000) connected up in stereo, the Yamaha stereo piano voice still didn't sound that great?

Please clarify.

Scott

ERR.. Excuse me scottyee...ditto to your question...except where I am the cost in dollars is more like 7,300...for 2PAS single Bass units, now you wanna get some improvement in sound for that sort of money...you guys in US have it easy.

ERR.. Excuse me scottyee...ditto to your question...except where I am the cost in dollars is more like 7,300...for 2PAS single Bass units, now you wanna get some improvement in sound for that sort of money...you guys in US have it easy.
LeoD

It depends on what you want to use it for. If you just want to entertain yourself, then it's hard to beat standing in the "sweet spot" created by a stereo field in your living room or basement. If you are a serious entertainer and you want to deliver a clean, crisp sound to all areas of a large room, there is no better way to do it than with a PAS. This is a completely different type of sound wave we are talking about here. It penetrates the room like nobody's business, with little or no distortion. It uses the natural dynamics of the room to create an amazing performance. And the real beauty of it is the sound does not change according to where you are standing. What you hear in your perfect little spot behind your keyboard is what everyone else hears, no matter where they are. Unfortunately, this kind of technology is expensive; but if you think "I have to have 2 units so I can have stereo", you are thinking along the wrong line. The PAS makes the change from Stereo to Mono quick and easy once you perform with it. If you have a hard time believing this, do the 45 day free trial offered by Bose. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain as a performer.

Hey Guys,
I'm sorry to see this topic dry up so abrubptly...as I don't think we have resolved the real issue with Bose PAS...& that is not the stereo Image...but the degradation of STEREO SAMPLES. In particular the Tyros Grand Pno...is quite awful through PAS..
I would welcome some comment on the following as poss solution to this issue..
1..Stereo Out exKbd..to 2 active spks(Yam 300/Mackies/ others...positioned L & R sides

2..Link from each L&R into 2 chans of PAS..positioned centre stage

3..Balance Vols from all 3 spks to be equal

The 2 outer Spks..should serve to preserve integrity of stereo Samples & give some element of stereo field...While PAS's output from center position is a monofield
giving that wide dispersion that only Pas can do...

I'm about to try such a set up tonight in a good size Hall...Adult Dance Venue...In meantime would like some input from tou guys I may not get much opportunity to evaluate myself...am a little concerned as to how the different Wave fields will react.

If succesful (subjective of course) it is a cheaper option to 2PAS ...&could very well be better...if a bit more cumbersome

I propose above in a 2 pce setup where Tyros is the primary input including Mics & everything out through all..

LeoD

Leo,
What you're suggesting is a waste of time and money. The whole idea behind the Bose is to save space and spread sound. You don;t have to hook up 2 other speakers ... you need to get a hi end sound that sums well to mono, or fix the sound in the kb you have.
This whole discussion of why the Yamaha piano sounds so bad in mono has NOTHING to do with the Bose. The sample is just weak, that's all. It relies on stereo effects to give it charachter. I tweaked the sound on the 3k Live Grand and it works very well in mono. You need to edit it while you listen through the Bose.

Using a system like you described is like selling the Bose short. If you MUST hear the sound in stereo ..... just don;t get teh PAS. It's pretty simple, really. But, if you have an open mind, and an open ear ...... really give this baby a test because it can save your back, simplify your life, increase your effectivness and improve your visual. Whew! What a product.

Hey !
Bose Marketing/endorsements .... is my check in the mail yet?

Dave,

What are the steps you used to tweak the 3000's piano sounds? The settings may be helpful for all of us using the 3K.

Gary

I'll gladly share the edits. Can I save the piano sound alone somehow and post it here? I know I played with the envelope and filters a little, but I don't remember exactly what I changed.

Select the tuned piano sound in your keyboard, then press the bottom of the #3 button (Copy) and copy the piano. Now tab over to the USB and copy it to your thumb drive. Then you can post it directly from your web-space the same way we post songs with a link. You can also email it to me as well.

Gary

Well Uncle Dave,
You are so right ...I did the set up as I described, and the extra speaks weren't worth a damn.....even if it did make a little difference ...it's just not worth the hassle. PAS works great on its own ....so the only issue is the piano sound...so hope you can upload as suggested,
or send by direct e-mail.

Many thanks
LeoD

I'll try to get that edit up a soon as I can!