Want to know what's really condescending? Remarks like that. There was nothing "condescending" in what I said or what I intended. I think most knowledgeable people on this forum would agree that what I said is essentially true. a "PLAYER", by my interpretation of the term, is usually a terrific instrumentalist that (usually) specializes in a single instrument.

I DO NOT LOOK DOWN ON 1) ENTERTAINERS, 2) OMB'S, 3) ARRANGER PLAYERS, 4) NON-JAZZ MUSICIANS, 5) AMATEUR MUSICIANS, HOME PLAYERS, OR ANY OTHER HUMAN BEING.

I am aware that this is an arranger forum. I participate because I own several arrangers (T2, PA1x pro, I5M and before that, G1000 and G800). If I hated arrangers, I most certainly wouldn't have shelled out the kind of money I have to own them.

It seems that TrevorJohn's "trifle condescending" remark triggered a feeding frenzy from people who, for whatever reason, were looking for an excuse to fire a couple of darts my way.

Except for the last sentence (I'm not looking for anything), Taike appears to be one of the few who interpreted my post as it was intended. Before succumbing to mob mentality, I urge you to re-read my post and tell me which parts are untrue and/or justifies all the nasty verbiage thrown my way.

Peace,

chas

Back to the topic ! a pared down "pro" instrument as in, built for working musician professionals that need fewer bangs and whistles would fail simply because keyboards are massed produced ie built for the masses.The masses want tons of features. The majority of musicians that buy "pro" instruments are in fact hobbyists and amateurs and dare i say it play mainly at home or church (home players). There is no commercial sense in building a keyboard with reduced features for what is a small market. For example if you were to analyse the musicians here that made a living from playing , it would be very small compared to the people that own the same instruments and view or comment on the site. Then from that small number of pro players you have to look at the miniscule group who play regularly "live" and not in a studio, who would be willing to pay extra for an instrument as you have described. How do you compete in that market if not by having unique features and how do you justify the cost? ( the manufacturing costs and marketing costs are going to be very similar). Why go through all that hassle when a musician simply only needs to use the features that they are interested in from the existing keyboards to get the board sounding and playing how they want ? If they only need 30 sounds then simply save those sounds in any of the hundreds of user sounds slots on the instrument. If they want dedicated sliders then buy a controller board with multi configureable sliders and knobs that they need , midi it up to a laptop or synth module and there you are . There are very many solutions a musician could chose other than for a manufacturer to make and sell a new (relatively expensive as i repeat the production cost are likely to stay the same )instrument for a small number of purchases compared to their money making mass produced all singing all dancing instruments.

The market wants more features, not less. Thats why so many people buy a new keyboard every couple of years. The existing instrument doesnt sound any worse 3 years on.Most if not ALL pros do not actually need to buy another instrument every couple of years to make a good living. The technolgy in sound production has not jumped in any great way incrementally over the last few years (except the use of SA voices) but people keep buying new keyboards or in MS type instruments keep upgrading operating systems , Why ????? Its simply because of the increase in features.

Features sell keyboards and in fact most things. I would be very surprised if that wasnt the case.

[This message has been edited by spalding4 (edited 01-08-2007).]

features are what i am asking for..features for players.
they are adding more knobs on many models from basic to hi-end, because the market wants real-time controls.
I'm not saying put in only 30 sounds..I'm saying give me
30 killer sounds that most real players use among my choices. Everyone has different sounds they like to use..but piano, rhodes, brass, winds, strings, guitars, vibes, organs are most desired. I'm not saying don't put a lot of bells and whistles in it..just keep them out of my way navigation-wise and give me a great layout and easy
live nav and playing features. they can make it hi-end and
charge a lot or low-end (you are completely off-base here, all of you because they sell the most of the stripped-down
low-price kb's, not the ones w/all the features. I'm saying
they could make the lo-end ones into players kb's with very little effort at a price that would make it popular.

------------------
Miami Mo

a controller can only do what the module is capable of
letting it do, no?

Sorry my friend, in my opinion, your post was condescending in it's original form.

Whether you meant it that way or not, only became clear after you elaborated on it.

My opinion was already formed before I read TrevorJohn's remark...we just happened to have the same one.

If I offended you, I am sorry, but your original post should have been more clear.

More peace,

Ian

------------------
Remember to leave good news alone.

ok i've said my last on this thread, not coming back to it.
it's been hijacked by private squabbles..have fun, guys..

I have to jump in here and say that I think arranger keyboards are the greatest thing since sliced bread. I consider myself both an entertainer and a player. As a player, I've played many a solo piano job in my day. I've also played in back up bands for name acts which required reading charts. I direct a church music program and I teach in the music department of a community college. But fisrt and foremost, I am an entertainer. While I always enjoy playing with quality musicians, for day to day making a living playing music, it's hard to beat a great OMB setup. That's the nature of the business today. There aren't many places for bands with 50 year old musicians to play anymore. With my OMB setup, I play some 300 gigs per year. When I get to each job, I have an incredible pallete of sounds and styles, and I know exactly what my music is going to sound like. And I never grow tired of discovering new things on an arranger. BTW, I currently play a Tyros 1 and I nearly always carry a Ketron MidJay with me. I played a G 1000 for several years and it's still my favorite. I now use many of it's styles on the Tyros. I guess I've been rambling on, but I really appreciate a good arranger.

Joe

------------------
Songman55
Joe Ayala

I hear you and i accept your points but from a manufacturers point of view most believe that they have given you more than just 30 plus killer voices and styles ! They simply leave it to the user to pick the 30 styles and sounds that they have supplied on the board .

From a manufacturers point of view how would you sell this keyboard ? How do you explain in clear terms what advantage this "performers" keyboard has over other "performance" keyboards ? It has all the same features so is no different to other keyboards but is easier to navigate around ? How do you sell that as a concept that makes people want to buy ?

Bigger samples, more quality styles, lighter weight,more sounds,real drums, Sa voices, dual sequencers, 32mb,64mb or 1Gig samplers are all features people can easily differentiate from product to product but "Easier to navigate " ? You wont be able to sell the instrument on that basis alone. The second and most thorny is what is meant by a better navigation layout ? How you might want it layed out might be completely different to me and a hundred other musicians because of he many different ways we use the boards. Thats why there are so many different setups for keyboards right now and why some are die hard korg, roland, or yamaha fans and wont be converted any other way and believe me each manufacturer will have discussed ease of navigation in the design spec of the instruments. Yet each have major diferences (and some similarities) in the instrument and navigational layout but in your eyes they were short of the mark. Some have pitchbend and separate modulation wheels, some have pitchbend and modulation balls and some joysticks. Some have transpose buttons on the left some to the right.But none are ideally set up for any one individual player .

I hear you as a concept but i dont see how any manufacturer can come up with a keyboard that meets your specification unless they sit down with you and design one just for you.

[This message has been edited by spalding4 (edited 01-08-2007).]

Hi Mo,

Sorry for hijacking your thread.

On your topic...

Personally I feel that Yamaha, Roland and other fine manufacturers have really made major advancements into the area of user programmability.

It wasn't too long ago that arrangers(or portable keyboards)had only several sounds that loosely conformed to their names, and perhaps a dozen simple styles that might have had one variation.

Keyboards weren't touch sensitive, no effects, no wheels and sometimes not even a sustain pedal.

Nowadays, you have hundreds of sounds and styles that can be edited, or new ones can be loaded in,not to forget the multiple assignable pedal inputs, benders and wheels, large legible screens, key touch is adjustable...the list goes on.

Why not rejoice about the abundance of features that are now available, rather than lament that a product is not made solely for your specific needs?

Sure, it is okay to dream and speculate, but sometimes we have to adapt to what's available, a trait often attributed to a true professional or "real" player.

All the best,

Ian





------------------
Remember to leave good news alone.

I agree on the first part of the first post in this thread. If an arranger is for performance why do we need Sampler, sequencer(maybe just a SMF playback sequencer) and other production tools? touch screen should be prohibited on arranger keyboards.
we need real-time controls, not a touch-screen full of Back and exit nevigation menus. Arranger kbds are now much more advanced than workstations...

[This message has been edited by Vadim (edited 01-08-2007).]