meaning if they want to put in sequencers, samplers, song files, demos, one/two finger play, preset suggested sounds/tempos, etc, fine--just keep 'em out of getting in my way.

I want 2 to 3 dozen killer sounds and styles--that's all i need. Keep the rest. I want as many real-time sliders and knobs as they will provide--never have to go into menus while performing. should have mutes for arranger parts, volumes for parts, reverb, effects, as actual sliders/knobs. Accel/dimin, transpose, tap tempo, and all the controls laid out in logical fashion for live play, with easy visual distinctions. I want 73 or 76 keys and total weight under 30 lbs, lighter yet is better yet.. good loud on-board speakers that can be tilted front/back or even removed plus a subwoofer output..and a screen that flips to vertical to eliminate problems outdoors in reading it..programmable fade-out. A row of performance buttons that play a hip selection of drum licks you can choose from--I don't want to push a button and have an instrumental phrase pop out, that is so cornball. 2 sets
of stereo/mono outputs in back. XLR mic input. Volume
pedal, sustain pedal, plus a wide-spaced 3-5 function
foot controller. To have a lot more is like having to learn to play another instrument with your feet. A modulation wheel that resets itself when you switch sounds. i know there's a few more things..and all easy to design and produce.

so why don't they make a kb specifically for the live PLAYER (as opposed to those who use kb like others use
minidisc trax, only with playing embellishments on keys,
or songwriters, or production cats..) WHY????? they could
still put in the additional features that would make it viable for those in production, songwriting, or being commercial OMB's? why do those cats get what they need and the PLAYERS don't?

------------------
Miami Mo

because the commercial realities mean that a board such as you described would neverf sell ! As soon as a manufacturer peared down an instrument like that into just the simple basic functions it would lose any competitive advantage.It would have less features than the competition and there would be no justification to sell it and make any kind of profit.

Keyboard manufacturers differentiate themselves by emphasising keyboard features and promoting them. A reduced featured keyboard would mean less for the manufacturers to find an angle to differentiate itself in a good way to the market

[This message has been edited by Spalding1 (edited 01-06-2007).]

Because PLAYERS don't use arranger keyboards; entertainers (which is what OMB's are) and home players (usually amateurs) do.

Yeah, there are a few exceptions, arrangers and songwriters usually, but for the most part real, honest-to-god, PLAYERS don't use arranger keyboards; at least, none that I know of, and I've been involved in the music scene on a professional level for many, many years.

chas

Just a trifle condescending !!!!

more than just a trifle. i'm a player and i use one because
I prefer it to having to organize, rehearse , book and lead a band. I not only prefer it practically but i prefer it for the musical freedom it gives me. I work solo and duo and sometimes trio but i never use a drummer (just percussionist) or bassist. i never call myself OMB because i don't do what most of them do--i'm a jazz-blues-latin-standards player and don't do commercial covers. Just because most good players don't use arranger kb's doesn't mean they know better. there are a lot of reasons they don't, including ignorance, stigma, and just being used to something else. 20 yrs ago you couldn't get many good pianists to want to try a synth on a gig. 30 years ago
most of them hated the idea of playing a Rhodes.

as far as commercial viability for manufacturers, there are
2 options: one is to pare the unit of features not used by
guys like me--and charge much less for it, because those features are expensive for them to include. the other option is to include all those features, charge for them, and just design the interface so the player can have what
he wants w/ a better design and the features guy can have
what he wants too.


------------------
Miami Mo

More than condescending for sure....but then again, you have to consider the source.

There are many REAL players (myself included) who use the arranger as a tool to get more playing jobs.

I'm not quite sure what standards Chas wants someone to meet in order to qualify as a "real player"...perhaps they must be famous, or at the very least, well known.

Chas' narrowness of view is made all the more remarkable by his statement,"I've been involved in the music scene on a professional level for many, many years".

Thankfully, this sort of tunnel vision does not seem to be wide spread...at least on this forum.

Ian



------------------
Remember to leave good news alone.

I have run across a number of "real" players that, believe it or not, just do not know anything about arranger keyboards. One of them played trumpet for Skitch Henderson when he was a young man. And while he is a veteran (older) player now, he still does gigs in the Miami-Dade area of Florida.

He tried his hand at singles several years ago with a keyboard and drum machine and played the keys in several combo groups. He became disenchanted and went back to trumpet exclusively.

He was a guest at a banquet I played in December. He was blown away by what I was able to do with the PSR 3K...and stayed after the gig to learn more about it.

All this is just to say...not all real musicians share the common knowledge about arrangers that we here on the Zone do.

Eddie

Can you possibly imagine the engineering cost of creating a bare-bones keyboard as described above? Just the cost of creating an injection mold for the outer shell is staggering. Yep, that's what manufacturers should--cater to a half-dozen so-called players in each state, province, etc, and with luck they may sell 1,000 custom keyboards worldwide. Then they could settle back and let the bankruptcy lawyers go to work.

Nigel, I guess you'll have create another forum segment just for players, folks that hate arranger keyboards but just show up here to agrivate the hell out of people that make a good living performing with an arranger keyboard. Or, maybe I just misread something at the top of the page. I thought it said "General Arranger Keyboard Forum."

Maybe I'm being a bit cynical, but for the most part I consider today's arranger keyboards nothing short of an engineering masterpiece. The sound quality is nothing short of spectacular, the versitility is well beyond anyone's wildest dreams, operating systems can be upgraded on some newer models, the boards are lightweight and easier to transport, and they are superb as a stand-alone instrument when played by a skilled performer.

As for the old-time sliders and knobs, think back to the days when that was all a keyboard had. It was a time when small pieces of tape were placed on the keyboard to mark the settings positions of those sliders and knobs so you could reset them because they were moved during transportation. Then there was the problem with dust, humidity, cigarrette smoke, etc that caused those sliders and knobs to become noisy. For me, I would much rather have a menu that allows me to create settings that work best for a particular venue, then save the information to a User area or registration that can be instantly recalled at the touch of a button.

Maybe I'm getting old, or possibly thin skinned, but I consider it insulting when someone refers to arranger keyboard players as non-professionals or amateurs in the musical entertainment industry. The vast majority of our forum members have performed with larger groups, and most of us began performing decades ago using guitars, pianos, organs, drums, etc. Switching to an arranger keyboard, IMO, was one of the smarter things many of us did, and most of us will never look back.

Good luck on that dream keyboard, and I sincerely hope you are successful in finding one that can be tailor made to your specifications.

Cheers,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

Gary,
don't know where to even start re your tirade.
but i'll try. all the mfrs now sell a ton of bare-bones kb's,
a lot more than $2k-3K arrangers. yamaha will sell a ton
of the new s500's, they sell tons of ypg's. what they couldn't sell was the 9000pro, which did it all. when did you become a marketing expert?

and where you got the idea i hate arranger kb's i don't understand at all. you are confusing me with those who are saying that arrangers are for amateurs at home.I love them--just want them better for my needs, and from a lot of the feedback i've read on sz in past months, a lot of guys want light, want real-time controls w/o menus, and a lot of the other stuff I ask for too, so it's not a handful in each state.

all i know of you is the foto you put out of all your equipment on your rock n roller heading for one of your
nursing home gigs. more power to you for carrying all that stuff..and you certainly have done a nice job getting
it all on the cart. 12 minute setup? methinks you exaggerate. i don't want to sound like a snob but i play my gigs to a much more discriminating audience w/an older korg arranger and a single JBL Eon 2 10" w/ small behringer mixer..i am looking to upgrade both the kb and the pa, for my own pleasure-not that I need to--but would never consider your overkill rig.
to each his own. remember that before you pass judgment.

------------------
Miami Mo

99% of the keyboard market is amateurs... ask anyone who has worked in a music store. That is not a limitation.

The solution is a MIDI cable.

Find the best arranger you can and add a MIDI controller to it with the types of keys and controls you want. You'll wind up with two light keyboards and a very nice rig. There's thousands of speakers on the market to choose from.

I use a Radio Shack piano (aka Casio CDP-100) as a controller for my Yamaha 9000 Pro arranger... it's a player's rig.

I fail to see why a kb can't serve amateurs and playing pros both if it is designed properly.

The more physical sliders and knobs, the stronger the board has to be made, which means the heavier it becomes, so unless you can find a cheap way to make boards out of Carbon Composites or Titanium, (Add about 5 times the cost of a typical Tyros 2 if you want your board made from those materials) then there is no way that the board you require could be made light enough for your 30 lb weight requirement

Bill

------------------
Miami Mo

sorry, i hit send button before i entered reply

abacus,
I play an old Korg is35. came out in '99, list $1500, all plastic, very strong and solid. has sequencer, vocal processor, speakers, lots of buttons and a few sliders, knobs, great easy navigation, just not up to today's standard re sounds/styles. weighs 28.5 lbs. what are you talking about? are you an engineer?



------------------
Miami Mo

Mo,

Most of my comments were not aimed at you, but instead Chas, who apparently looks down upon us lowly entertainers, categorizing most forum members as "Amateurs."

AS for the old sliders and standard pot-type volume controls, I have lots of experience both installing and repairing electronic devices using both types. Because of their electro-mechanical design characteristics, then rapidly deteriorate, especially those that were not sealed.

I won't go into the marketing aspect, and I surely don't want to turn this into another pissing contest.

Cheers,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

I am no entertainer,more of a player,and although I have not used arranger keyboards extensively,I am planning to. Just for the sake of creating music. If I get an idea and want to arrange a piece quickly ,rather than sitting down hours to program a drum track,I suspect that the arranger stuff would come in very usefully...the drum trak is already there,at least a good approximation of all the instruments,and they can be edited fully.

I can't wait to get my used Yamaha QY700 in a few days...the reasons above are exactly why I have bought it. But it's a shame that Roland does not do desktop versions of these powerful arranger keyboards: the keys of these keyboards often put me off.

Given the elevated cost of any keyboard workstation with hammer action keys, desktop versions make a lot of sense because then one can simply add a good master keyboard,whether hammer action or semi-weighted etc.

That's why I am going for the Yamaha QY700,although it's rather outdated in matter of sounds and even functionality,compared to even keyboards like the Roland E-50.
Let alone arranger keyboards like the G-70 !

Arranger keyboards now came a VERY long way!



[This message has been edited by santantoni (edited 01-07-2007).]

been playing korg is35 6 yrs, technics kn2600 2 yrs,
never had an electromechanical problem w/either. there
are solutions..and hey, aren't all the mfrs now starting to
feature some real-time knobs on their workstations (even lo-enders!) to jack up sales? gee, there is market for that, isn't there, all you marketing experts out there.

Yamaha makes the ypg series..amazingly good for the price, but just barely an arranger. they could take their
76-key job, light as a feather, which sells for $399, put in the excellent live!grand they have in the ypg 88's..it has fantastic elec piano sounds..upgrade some of the other sounds, upgrade styles, put in l/r outputs in additon to headphone out..have a mic input w/vol control, add dedicated transpose, fade- out, and variations/fills, have
a vol ped input, a few other arranger-style things, and voila, charge double..charge $800..and you have a great
players kb...

------------------
Miami Mo

Oh, the WRITTTEN word. I was taught that the written word must be exact to escape misinterpretation.

I feel sorry for Chas because, even though I think he said what he believes, I don't think he means exactly what he wrote. And i don't feel he MEANT to be condesending. I notice he hasn't replied to defend himself, so maybe I'm off the mark here. But, maybe he meant to say that 'players' want to play and not be burdened with the arranger 'thing.' Not to say arranger players can't be 'real players' too, but the music itself could (should?) stand alone if played a certain way. So as not to dig myself into a hole, I will quit here. I'm in no way a fantastic musician, but many times I prefer to just play the keyboard (piano organ?); does that make me a 'player'?

Because PLAYERS don't use arranger keyboards; entertainers (which is what OMB's are) and home players (usually amateurs) do.

Most of my comments were not aimed at you, but instead Chas, who apparently looks down upon us lowly entertainers, categorizing most forum members as "Amateurs."
============================================
I can't see where Chas categorizes most forum members as amateurs or looks down on them. It's pretty obvious that he means home players in the sense that they're not professional players. I am sure that even Chas knows that there are a lot of home players (amateurs) that outplay many professionals. There really isn't anything insulting in his post.

Chas, I hope that you'll find what you're looking for.

Peace!

why has this thread become about a remark by chas and not about the topic?

Want to know what's really condescending? Remarks like that. There was nothing "condescending" in what I said or what I intended. I think most knowledgeable people on this forum would agree that what I said is essentially true. a "PLAYER", by my interpretation of the term, is usually a terrific instrumentalist that (usually) specializes in a single instrument.

I DO NOT LOOK DOWN ON 1) ENTERTAINERS, 2) OMB'S, 3) ARRANGER PLAYERS, 4) NON-JAZZ MUSICIANS, 5) AMATEUR MUSICIANS, HOME PLAYERS, OR ANY OTHER HUMAN BEING.

I am aware that this is an arranger forum. I participate because I own several arrangers (T2, PA1x pro, I5M and before that, G1000 and G800). If I hated arrangers, I most certainly wouldn't have shelled out the kind of money I have to own them.

It seems that TrevorJohn's "trifle condescending" remark triggered a feeding frenzy from people who, for whatever reason, were looking for an excuse to fire a couple of darts my way.

Except for the last sentence (I'm not looking for anything), Taike appears to be one of the few who interpreted my post as it was intended. Before succumbing to mob mentality, I urge you to re-read my post and tell me which parts are untrue and/or justifies all the nasty verbiage thrown my way.

Peace,

chas

Back to the topic ! a pared down "pro" instrument as in, built for working musician professionals that need fewer bangs and whistles would fail simply because keyboards are massed produced ie built for the masses.The masses want tons of features. The majority of musicians that buy "pro" instruments are in fact hobbyists and amateurs and dare i say it play mainly at home or church (home players). There is no commercial sense in building a keyboard with reduced features for what is a small market. For example if you were to analyse the musicians here that made a living from playing , it would be very small compared to the people that own the same instruments and view or comment on the site. Then from that small number of pro players you have to look at the miniscule group who play regularly "live" and not in a studio, who would be willing to pay extra for an instrument as you have described. How do you compete in that market if not by having unique features and how do you justify the cost? ( the manufacturing costs and marketing costs are going to be very similar). Why go through all that hassle when a musician simply only needs to use the features that they are interested in from the existing keyboards to get the board sounding and playing how they want ? If they only need 30 sounds then simply save those sounds in any of the hundreds of user sounds slots on the instrument. If they want dedicated sliders then buy a controller board with multi configureable sliders and knobs that they need , midi it up to a laptop or synth module and there you are . There are very many solutions a musician could chose other than for a manufacturer to make and sell a new (relatively expensive as i repeat the production cost are likely to stay the same )instrument for a small number of purchases compared to their money making mass produced all singing all dancing instruments.

The market wants more features, not less. Thats why so many people buy a new keyboard every couple of years. The existing instrument doesnt sound any worse 3 years on.Most if not ALL pros do not actually need to buy another instrument every couple of years to make a good living. The technolgy in sound production has not jumped in any great way incrementally over the last few years (except the use of SA voices) but people keep buying new keyboards or in MS type instruments keep upgrading operating systems , Why ????? Its simply because of the increase in features.

Features sell keyboards and in fact most things. I would be very surprised if that wasnt the case.

[This message has been edited by spalding4 (edited 01-08-2007).]

features are what i am asking for..features for players.
they are adding more knobs on many models from basic to hi-end, because the market wants real-time controls.
I'm not saying put in only 30 sounds..I'm saying give me
30 killer sounds that most real players use among my choices. Everyone has different sounds they like to use..but piano, rhodes, brass, winds, strings, guitars, vibes, organs are most desired. I'm not saying don't put a lot of bells and whistles in it..just keep them out of my way navigation-wise and give me a great layout and easy
live nav and playing features. they can make it hi-end and
charge a lot or low-end (you are completely off-base here, all of you because they sell the most of the stripped-down
low-price kb's, not the ones w/all the features. I'm saying
they could make the lo-end ones into players kb's with very little effort at a price that would make it popular.

------------------
Miami Mo

a controller can only do what the module is capable of
letting it do, no?

Sorry my friend, in my opinion, your post was condescending in it's original form.

Whether you meant it that way or not, only became clear after you elaborated on it.

My opinion was already formed before I read TrevorJohn's remark...we just happened to have the same one.

If I offended you, I am sorry, but your original post should have been more clear.

More peace,

Ian

------------------
Remember to leave good news alone.

ok i've said my last on this thread, not coming back to it.
it's been hijacked by private squabbles..have fun, guys..

I have to jump in here and say that I think arranger keyboards are the greatest thing since sliced bread. I consider myself both an entertainer and a player. As a player, I've played many a solo piano job in my day. I've also played in back up bands for name acts which required reading charts. I direct a church music program and I teach in the music department of a community college. But fisrt and foremost, I am an entertainer. While I always enjoy playing with quality musicians, for day to day making a living playing music, it's hard to beat a great OMB setup. That's the nature of the business today. There aren't many places for bands with 50 year old musicians to play anymore. With my OMB setup, I play some 300 gigs per year. When I get to each job, I have an incredible pallete of sounds and styles, and I know exactly what my music is going to sound like. And I never grow tired of discovering new things on an arranger. BTW, I currently play a Tyros 1 and I nearly always carry a Ketron MidJay with me. I played a G 1000 for several years and it's still my favorite. I now use many of it's styles on the Tyros. I guess I've been rambling on, but I really appreciate a good arranger.

Joe

------------------
Songman55
Joe Ayala

I hear you and i accept your points but from a manufacturers point of view most believe that they have given you more than just 30 plus killer voices and styles ! They simply leave it to the user to pick the 30 styles and sounds that they have supplied on the board .

From a manufacturers point of view how would you sell this keyboard ? How do you explain in clear terms what advantage this "performers" keyboard has over other "performance" keyboards ? It has all the same features so is no different to other keyboards but is easier to navigate around ? How do you sell that as a concept that makes people want to buy ?

Bigger samples, more quality styles, lighter weight,more sounds,real drums, Sa voices, dual sequencers, 32mb,64mb or 1Gig samplers are all features people can easily differentiate from product to product but "Easier to navigate " ? You wont be able to sell the instrument on that basis alone. The second and most thorny is what is meant by a better navigation layout ? How you might want it layed out might be completely different to me and a hundred other musicians because of he many different ways we use the boards. Thats why there are so many different setups for keyboards right now and why some are die hard korg, roland, or yamaha fans and wont be converted any other way and believe me each manufacturer will have discussed ease of navigation in the design spec of the instruments. Yet each have major diferences (and some similarities) in the instrument and navigational layout but in your eyes they were short of the mark. Some have pitchbend and separate modulation wheels, some have pitchbend and modulation balls and some joysticks. Some have transpose buttons on the left some to the right.But none are ideally set up for any one individual player .

I hear you as a concept but i dont see how any manufacturer can come up with a keyboard that meets your specification unless they sit down with you and design one just for you.

[This message has been edited by spalding4 (edited 01-08-2007).]

Hi Mo,

Sorry for hijacking your thread.

On your topic...

Personally I feel that Yamaha, Roland and other fine manufacturers have really made major advancements into the area of user programmability.

It wasn't too long ago that arrangers(or portable keyboards)had only several sounds that loosely conformed to their names, and perhaps a dozen simple styles that might have had one variation.

Keyboards weren't touch sensitive, no effects, no wheels and sometimes not even a sustain pedal.

Nowadays, you have hundreds of sounds and styles that can be edited, or new ones can be loaded in,not to forget the multiple assignable pedal inputs, benders and wheels, large legible screens, key touch is adjustable...the list goes on.

Why not rejoice about the abundance of features that are now available, rather than lament that a product is not made solely for your specific needs?

Sure, it is okay to dream and speculate, but sometimes we have to adapt to what's available, a trait often attributed to a true professional or "real" player.

All the best,

Ian





------------------
Remember to leave good news alone.

I agree on the first part of the first post in this thread. If an arranger is for performance why do we need Sampler, sequencer(maybe just a SMF playback sequencer) and other production tools? touch screen should be prohibited on arranger keyboards.
we need real-time controls, not a touch-screen full of Back and exit nevigation menus. Arranger kbds are now much more advanced than workstations...

[This message has been edited by Vadim (edited 01-08-2007).]

O
M
G

From the Urban Dictionary...

"OMG Net-centric abbreviation for the popular exclamation "Oh my God!" (generally used in conversations to exclaim surprise or disgust).

Most commonly used by teenage girls who find it depressingly hard to type out an entire word. Reinforces assumptions that humans seem to be getting dumber from generation to generation".


Pretty cute, David.

Ian




------------------
Remember to leave good news alone.

Well, in my case ... it's actually Oh, my gosh. I don't use the Lord's name in casual context.
Thanx anyway though ... glad you thought it was cute. We all like cute.

Damn Chas! We're going to have a time finding an arranger washboard! I "heard" what you're saying...semantics, again. Thanks for taking a stand.


"Doghouse" Russ



[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 01-09-2007).]