meaning if they want to put in sequencers, samplers, song files, demos, one/two finger play, preset suggested sounds/tempos, etc, fine--just keep 'em out of getting in my way.

I want 2 to 3 dozen killer sounds and styles--that's all i need. Keep the rest. I want as many real-time sliders and knobs as they will provide--never have to go into menus while performing. should have mutes for arranger parts, volumes for parts, reverb, effects, as actual sliders/knobs. Accel/dimin, transpose, tap tempo, and all the controls laid out in logical fashion for live play, with easy visual distinctions. I want 73 or 76 keys and total weight under 30 lbs, lighter yet is better yet.. good loud on-board speakers that can be tilted front/back or even removed plus a subwoofer output..and a screen that flips to vertical to eliminate problems outdoors in reading it..programmable fade-out. A row of performance buttons that play a hip selection of drum licks you can choose from--I don't want to push a button and have an instrumental phrase pop out, that is so cornball. 2 sets
of stereo/mono outputs in back. XLR mic input. Volume
pedal, sustain pedal, plus a wide-spaced 3-5 function
foot controller. To have a lot more is like having to learn to play another instrument with your feet. A modulation wheel that resets itself when you switch sounds. i know there's a few more things..and all easy to design and produce.

so why don't they make a kb specifically for the live PLAYER (as opposed to those who use kb like others use
minidisc trax, only with playing embellishments on keys,
or songwriters, or production cats..) WHY????? they could
still put in the additional features that would make it viable for those in production, songwriting, or being commercial OMB's? why do those cats get what they need and the PLAYERS don't?

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Miami Mo

because the commercial realities mean that a board such as you described would neverf sell ! As soon as a manufacturer peared down an instrument like that into just the simple basic functions it would lose any competitive advantage.It would have less features than the competition and there would be no justification to sell it and make any kind of profit.

Keyboard manufacturers differentiate themselves by emphasising keyboard features and promoting them. A reduced featured keyboard would mean less for the manufacturers to find an angle to differentiate itself in a good way to the market

[This message has been edited by Spalding1 (edited 01-06-2007).]

Because PLAYERS don't use arranger keyboards; entertainers (which is what OMB's are) and home players (usually amateurs) do.

Yeah, there are a few exceptions, arrangers and songwriters usually, but for the most part real, honest-to-god, PLAYERS don't use arranger keyboards; at least, none that I know of, and I've been involved in the music scene on a professional level for many, many years.

chas

Just a trifle condescending !!!!

more than just a trifle. i'm a player and i use one because
I prefer it to having to organize, rehearse , book and lead a band. I not only prefer it practically but i prefer it for the musical freedom it gives me. I work solo and duo and sometimes trio but i never use a drummer (just percussionist) or bassist. i never call myself OMB because i don't do what most of them do--i'm a jazz-blues-latin-standards player and don't do commercial covers. Just because most good players don't use arranger kb's doesn't mean they know better. there are a lot of reasons they don't, including ignorance, stigma, and just being used to something else. 20 yrs ago you couldn't get many good pianists to want to try a synth on a gig. 30 years ago
most of them hated the idea of playing a Rhodes.

as far as commercial viability for manufacturers, there are
2 options: one is to pare the unit of features not used by
guys like me--and charge much less for it, because those features are expensive for them to include. the other option is to include all those features, charge for them, and just design the interface so the player can have what
he wants w/ a better design and the features guy can have
what he wants too.


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Miami Mo

More than condescending for sure....but then again, you have to consider the source.

There are many REAL players (myself included) who use the arranger as a tool to get more playing jobs.

I'm not quite sure what standards Chas wants someone to meet in order to qualify as a "real player"...perhaps they must be famous, or at the very least, well known.

Chas' narrowness of view is made all the more remarkable by his statement,"I've been involved in the music scene on a professional level for many, many years".

Thankfully, this sort of tunnel vision does not seem to be wide spread...at least on this forum.

Ian



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Remember to leave good news alone.

I have run across a number of "real" players that, believe it or not, just do not know anything about arranger keyboards. One of them played trumpet for Skitch Henderson when he was a young man. And while he is a veteran (older) player now, he still does gigs in the Miami-Dade area of Florida.

He tried his hand at singles several years ago with a keyboard and drum machine and played the keys in several combo groups. He became disenchanted and went back to trumpet exclusively.

He was a guest at a banquet I played in December. He was blown away by what I was able to do with the PSR 3K...and stayed after the gig to learn more about it.

All this is just to say...not all real musicians share the common knowledge about arrangers that we here on the Zone do.

Eddie

Can you possibly imagine the engineering cost of creating a bare-bones keyboard as described above? Just the cost of creating an injection mold for the outer shell is staggering. Yep, that's what manufacturers should--cater to a half-dozen so-called players in each state, province, etc, and with luck they may sell 1,000 custom keyboards worldwide. Then they could settle back and let the bankruptcy lawyers go to work.

Nigel, I guess you'll have create another forum segment just for players, folks that hate arranger keyboards but just show up here to agrivate the hell out of people that make a good living performing with an arranger keyboard. Or, maybe I just misread something at the top of the page. I thought it said "General Arranger Keyboard Forum."

Maybe I'm being a bit cynical, but for the most part I consider today's arranger keyboards nothing short of an engineering masterpiece. The sound quality is nothing short of spectacular, the versitility is well beyond anyone's wildest dreams, operating systems can be upgraded on some newer models, the boards are lightweight and easier to transport, and they are superb as a stand-alone instrument when played by a skilled performer.

As for the old-time sliders and knobs, think back to the days when that was all a keyboard had. It was a time when small pieces of tape were placed on the keyboard to mark the settings positions of those sliders and knobs so you could reset them because they were moved during transportation. Then there was the problem with dust, humidity, cigarrette smoke, etc that caused those sliders and knobs to become noisy. For me, I would much rather have a menu that allows me to create settings that work best for a particular venue, then save the information to a User area or registration that can be instantly recalled at the touch of a button.

Maybe I'm getting old, or possibly thin skinned, but I consider it insulting when someone refers to arranger keyboard players as non-professionals or amateurs in the musical entertainment industry. The vast majority of our forum members have performed with larger groups, and most of us began performing decades ago using guitars, pianos, organs, drums, etc. Switching to an arranger keyboard, IMO, was one of the smarter things many of us did, and most of us will never look back.

Good luck on that dream keyboard, and I sincerely hope you are successful in finding one that can be tailor made to your specifications.

Cheers,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

Gary,
don't know where to even start re your tirade.
but i'll try. all the mfrs now sell a ton of bare-bones kb's,
a lot more than $2k-3K arrangers. yamaha will sell a ton
of the new s500's, they sell tons of ypg's. what they couldn't sell was the 9000pro, which did it all. when did you become a marketing expert?

and where you got the idea i hate arranger kb's i don't understand at all. you are confusing me with those who are saying that arrangers are for amateurs at home.I love them--just want them better for my needs, and from a lot of the feedback i've read on sz in past months, a lot of guys want light, want real-time controls w/o menus, and a lot of the other stuff I ask for too, so it's not a handful in each state.

all i know of you is the foto you put out of all your equipment on your rock n roller heading for one of your
nursing home gigs. more power to you for carrying all that stuff..and you certainly have done a nice job getting
it all on the cart. 12 minute setup? methinks you exaggerate. i don't want to sound like a snob but i play my gigs to a much more discriminating audience w/an older korg arranger and a single JBL Eon 2 10" w/ small behringer mixer..i am looking to upgrade both the kb and the pa, for my own pleasure-not that I need to--but would never consider your overkill rig.
to each his own. remember that before you pass judgment.

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Miami Mo

99% of the keyboard market is amateurs... ask anyone who has worked in a music store. That is not a limitation.

The solution is a MIDI cable.

Find the best arranger you can and add a MIDI controller to it with the types of keys and controls you want. You'll wind up with two light keyboards and a very nice rig. There's thousands of speakers on the market to choose from.

I use a Radio Shack piano (aka Casio CDP-100) as a controller for my Yamaha 9000 Pro arranger... it's a player's rig.