I've seen several posts at different times about how problematic it can be adding a module from one manufacturer to an arranger from another.

One of the prime problems seems to be 'glitches', dropped notes or other assorted weirdness when driving a module (or another keyboard) from the style section of an arranger. I think the main culprit for these is that different manufacturers use differing methods to handle fractionally 'late' chord entry on the master arranger.

All of us, at one time or another, fail to play the NEXT chord slightly ahead of the beat, to allow the arranger engine time to set up and play the correct notes for the chord. What happens next seems to be different for each manufacturer... How they somehow get the arranger to shift the 'wrong' notes (derived from the previous chord) to the 'correct' ones (from the fractionally late new chord) without them actually sounding 'late'.

So I thought that this might be a good place for the 'gurus' to post how each arranger actually does this trick, and whether there are any workarounds to help a module deal with this information.

Most of this information can be seen in a computer sequencer's List Edit display and some of it in a Piano-roll Key display.

So, if you have details about how YOUR arranger handles this problem, please post them here. Perhaps we can find out which manufacturers use the same system, which don't, and get some useful information about what different manufacturers' products 'play nice' with each other, and which DON'T...

Any takers...?

(I'll post back here soon with details on Roland, once I have confirmed up my facts)

Hi Diki
A standard Wersi has 3 different level settings of chord recognition, (Plus modes for if you are using a Pedalboard) to allow it to adapt to different techniques, however if you add the OAA (Open Art Arranger) software then this has multiple chord recognition systems (Automatic and manual) that no other arranger/organ can match. (Every single chord recognition system of any arranger/organ is available to the user)
Hope this helps

Bill

Are you referring to chord 'recognition' techniques (how an arranger interprets the notes you play to derive the chord you want)?

This is more about how the arranger changes a 'wrong' note to a 'right' one after you play a chord fractionally late. Do Wersi offer a variety of pitch correction methods?

Hi Diki
I think I may have misunderstood the question.
How can I get to play the chords slightly late, as I have tried allsorts of ways and I just cannot get my OAS 6 Abacus to misbehave? (The backing always sounds correct)
It certainly is difficult to try and change a technique you are used too.

Bill

ALL of us play chords slightly 'late' all the time (no-one is THAT precise!). But the arranger does some VERY clever tricks to fool us that nothing wrong happened.

Just imagine the case where you played as close to 'on the beat' you possibly could, but ended up playing one or two 'ticks' late... Completely indistinguishable to the ear, but to a computer, definitely late. What happens next varies from manufacturer to manufacturer, but essentially, the old 'incorrect' notes are cut off (derived from the previous chord) somehow, new notes are generated, and pitch bent or portamento'd (with a time of zero) to the new 'correct' notes. All of this with as little 'glitching' as possible.

Now , we've ALL heard those little 'glitches' from time to time, especially on stripped down styles, and when we are just listening to the arranger, not playing on top of it (which tends to mask the problem). But HOW each arranger does this is a bit of a mystery, and obviously, if one manufacturer's arranger uses a different system to another, link them together and the slave module may not use the same codes that the master does to avoid the glitches.

The result...? Usually, dropped notes at the chord changes, or weird little glitches, or sometimes wrong notes. Drum tracks don't suffer from this, because they never transpose as you change chords, but all pitched tones do... So, hence my thread about trying to find out how each manufacturer deals with this problem, so we can compile a list of what works (and doesn't work) with what...

I hope this explains it better...

Hi Diki
Couldn’t find anything about chord recognition directly, but in the style edit section it does mention about changing chords.
The following info is taken from the Wersi OAS 6 programming manual, and as far as I am aware is the same with OAS 7, however the OAA software may be completely different in the way it achieves the results. (It has very little in common with the standard style system)
Hope this is what you are looking for.

Bill

The setting is called Pad Mode, and all tracks are treated independently.

With the choice field Pad Mode you determine how the style player will treat playing notes if a new chord is performed on the lower manual. This affects the tracks ACC 1 to ACC 5.
Depending on the instruments in use and the reference notes in the accompaniment track, it may be necessary to finish overlapping chords with a chord release. Especially with space sounds, resp. sounds with a long sustain, such overlapping might result in ugly dissonances. You can prevent this from happening by setting the right pad mode. Touch the choice field and select the desired pad mode by turning the Data Wheel on your control panel. The value off means, no overlapping treatment is applied. Set the value to Off, if your track contains percussive sounds, or if the track contains many short notes. Cancel allows the notes to play to the end only if it will not violate the harmonics. This is the correct mode, if your track contains half-percussive sounds with many different chords, e.g. an E-Piano. The setting Trigger will stop all playing notes which do not correspond to the new chords and trigger them again in the right position. Use this mode for pure space sounds, with only a few chords, lasting the whole bar (e.g. strings). The setting Pad Mode has no effect for the tracks DRMI, DRM2 and Bass.

Diki there are at least two issues I have come across connecting my arrangers to each other, and to an external tone module:
1) What the arranger logic does when you play an accurate chord slightly behind the beat
2) Chord issues caused when you accidentally play the wrong notes, or due to "lag" interpreting the notes you play

I can only speak to issue #2:
I play using the "single finger chord" mode. To play a minor chord, you have to press the root and a black key to its left. For example, G minor = G + F sharp. Sometimes in the heat of battle I might press the F# 0.02 seconds before the G. So Yammy will actually sound the F# major chord (F# A# C#) for 0.02 seconds. When it "registers" my G note, it will release F# and C#, and sound G and D. (Since A# was IS part of the G-minor chord, that note is played for the full duration.) To mask what is happening, Yamaha XF / XG employs portamento control #84. You can even hear this if you listen carefully. It is very noticeable with bright instruments, or those rich in harmonics. There will be extra notes (and depending upon the record tempo, even incorrect chord notation) in the score. If you are sending the output to another device such as a vocaliser, it MAY latch onto the initial, incorrect F# chord which will sound bad.

This is true of the Yamaha PSR-3K and most other Yamahas I have tested, including Tyros and the brand new PSR-S700. But don't take my word for it. It is easy to do a quick record, look at the score, and see for yourself!

Now the Korg PA50 has different logic. It also has a single-finger mode. However when any key is pressed in the chord section, it WAITS about 0.03 seconds to see if you are going to press any more keys before resolving and sounding the chord. So in my example above, if I wanted G-minor, but accidentally pressed the F# first, it will NOT sound an F# major chord. As long as I press the G to the right within 0.03 seconds, it will play the intended G-minor chord without sprinkling two extra grace notes in the score. I prefer this logic approach. The only downside is that it doesn't seem as responsive to fast chord changes because of the slight lag. But as a player, I can anticipate the lag by pressing the chord just before the beat. I can't hide the ugly pitch glide Yammy gives you, which makes certain voices unusable for the left hand.

The times I quoted above are fairly exact. They can be verified by looking at the clocks/beats in the sequencer of a quick record. Not sure if this is the information you needed, but that's my experience with these boards. -Ted

My Tyros uses short "grace" notes. I don't know how to be more specific because I can't figure out the exact rhyme or reason. But they are there no matter how accurately a part is played. I always edit them out in Sonar.

Danny

I don't know or care to know how the technology allows for this phenomenon you speak of, but I do know Yamaha is the VERY BEST in pulling this off.

Zuki....any demos yet?

But how good is it when it is controlled by another keyboard that is being used as a second manual.
The idea of the post is to try and identify if there will be any problems when linking 2 boards together via Midi, and if so how to get round them.
Mine is better then yours, and so must be the best, is not an answer that helps anybody

Bill

Sorry.......

My email profile is open...

Would anyone care to send me an SMF of naked arranger play from Yamaha, Korg, and Ketron (Wersi and MS too, if you like), unedited, so I can see the codes used to compensate for the late entry (so don't try to be TOO precise!)...

Please just post on this thread that you have done so, and what make it is, so I don't get swamped with dozens of the same arranger...

Then I'll start comparing them in List and Key editors to see how they pull off this trick.

Thank you...

Diki I couldn't find any way to post attachments on this forum. But I posted my disappointed observations to psrtutorial.com last year, along with two midis illustrating the false notes. They were recorded on a PSR3K, and due to the very high sequencer resolution of 1920 ppq, they are best reviewed on a late-model Yammy. very Here is a link to my post there:

http://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php?topic=3603.msg20921#msg20921

If the link doesn't work, just do a search for the terms 'chord recognition'. Hope this is what you were looking for if not email me. -Ted



[This message has been edited by TedS (edited 08-08-2007).]

Hi Diki
You have mail

Bill

Ted, please just attach the files (if you still have them) to an email to me (click on the mail icon at the top of this post to link direct to my email address).

The forum no longer has the attachments in the post you indicated.

Thanks, abacus. This should take a week or more with my gig schedule, so I'll post back ASAP, but don't hold your breath!

So, I have Yamaha and Wersi... Anyone with Korg and Ketron, please email me... (and post here after you do, thanks)

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 08-09-2007).]

Diki you've got mail (2 mails to be exact!) -Ted

Donny...?

Can you make a quick, short SMF straight from the arranger? I know nothing about Ketrons.

diki....I can do it tommmorow for ya on my sd1+ Im off to a double now ok? what do you acually need?

I'll email it to ya.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 08-10-2007).]

Thanks, Donny. I just need a short improvised piece of straight arranger play (your Ketron will record the arranger to the internal sequencer and save as SMF, no doubt) without ANY editing at all. The more 'glitches', the better!

Just left hand only (the right won't glitch!).

Thanks in advance...

Diki.....SD1+ SMF is in your email

enjoy

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 08-11-2007).]

OK, so I have Yamaha, Roland, Wersi and Ketron...

Would anyone mind sending me a short Korg arranger MIDI 'capture', and perhaps even a Casio and MS (Fran?) to round things out!

Thanks to all who are helping...