.... Inquiring minds want to know... also the other thread was getting toooo long, so I figured I'd start a new one....
t.

We had 3 good sets, so I let my guard down and called "I can't help myself" (4 tops) - a tune that the drummer told me he knew.
I played the intro in HIS key, and it seems to go on forever while he fumbled with his papers, juggling sticks, and generally looking stupid and flustered while the "endless" intro dragged on .... and on ..

I couldn't hear the bass drum at all - he was tired from 3 good, solid sets, I guess) and I finally gave up waiting for his vocal and begang to sing the song myself. After 1/2 verse ..... he chimes in, and I revert to my role as backup singers. (Digitech & I)

A little further into the tune (that he was READING )with some very obvious wrong words and structure .... I listened once again to the lack of "guts" .... looked at his BD foot and saw almost no energy being transfered. So, to prove a point - I stopped playing bass .... just laid on the chords and let him hear how EMPTY and thin it was. He never commented.

I'll post more on this later, but I have to get to work now. This rain is a real damper !

Hey Dave, might it have been 'you' who was making him feel nervous? As I stated before, you need to 'give up' that gig, the chemistry just 'isn't right' for either of you. I clearly sense you need to be the one in command (head cheese ), so if as you say, you're really a lot better than him, the management should have been able to figure this out by now, and have made booking changes. If they haven't, seek work elsewhere. Just my opinion for what's it's worth. - Scott

It's worth a lot, Scott, and you're right. Things need to change. I just wanted to try every thing I could to keep this poor sap working. I can't carry him anymore though. He's just not ready to be a leader. He can't cut the gig. period.

Scotty, great observation! Quote: “so IF as you say, you're really a lot better than him, the management should have been able to figure this out by now, and have made booking changes”. Unquote! Maybe the management can’t figure this out because they are just as unqualified to be a successful business as that unqualified poor sap they hired. That is, according to Dave’s estimation.

Now Dave, on your ethics thread you asked for our thoughts on the situation you agreed to put yourself in. After your self justifying statements to us, and asking, you got some replies you did not care for. In your statement, and I quote, “Sorry guys, but you can't rattle me on this one”, indicates that EGO and self worth has gotten to a point where nothing is left to rattle. Dave you say it like you see it and many of us say it like we see it. We all live in this ethereal house in the snyth zone so let’s all of us make our own bed and exist together.

Doug

A successful entertainer MUST have a sense of self-worth (and a little ego) or he'll never make it. You have to believe in yourself.
I think that none of us is really close enough to the situation to know the "feel" of it. Dave will handle it with class and dignity.
. . . but he DID ask our opinions!
DonM

Don I agree with you. A successful entertainer MUST have a sense of self-worth (and a little ego) or he'll never make it. You have to believe in yourself. Tearing down and belittling a fellow who thought enough of you to ask and to hire you to work for him is neither class and/or dignity. Yes, even if he is not very accomplished. A class act would be to fulfill your commitment if you made a judgmental mistake and bow out at the first opportunity. Then you would have merited some dignity among peers not to mention the ethics that you so earnestly desire to attain. Scott and I have bent each others noses in the past. I really don’t dislike or have anything against him. Our only conflict was that he changed keyboards because he deemed one to be better for his kind of work than the one he had. That is as it should be. The choice he made was not the irritation. Coming to his pervious group of KN players and pointing out how much better his was than the choice we made and at a much cheeper price was his prerogative. Still nothing so bad. His incessant, unrelenting attempts to do this at every opportunity that presented itself is what made me and others feel like our noses were being rubbed into our poor choices. Sad, but that is the whole story. Scott has not done this anymore and I thank him. He has much to contribute and I will say his remarks on this matter appear to be of insight and good advice. Every one has some faults. My hope is Dave would consider what has been said.

So Don these are my thoughts on class, dignity and ethics as they rub up against yours.

Doug

Doug,
I really used to look forward to your posts. I admired the writing style, the humor, the hidden message. These last few just sound like preaching to me. You run a business, don't you? Isn't it tough sometimes to make the right decision when coworker's feelings are at stake? Ultimatly, the business decision needs to be made for the good of the many, and not the one.

While I appreciate all the comments that I DID ask for, I understand now that with a group as culturally and geagraphically diverse as ours is - We can never really see this issue from the same side. Many of us work in different facets of this business. Some full time, others part time, others just for fun. The one constant we share is the love of the craft, and the tools we use to achieve our musical end. As a full time pro and independant contractor I have always seent this job as much more than a "gig". That's why I hardly use the word. If you look at it from the point of view as a business man, you may see it the way I do. If you let your emotions as an artist rule your thoughts, you may see it differently. Either way ...... it's really a simple situation. Many of you knew from the start that my post was a cry for help, of sorts. I needed to know that I was trying every possible measure to spare the feelings of a good man in a bad situation.

I do not intend to "teach" my methods to anyone here, but I feel very strongly that I have made the correct and most charitable decision in how to handle this situation.
The word "ethics" really was not appropriate. I know I handled it ethically. What I was trying to do was soften the blow of the ax that was about to fall on a very nice man.

Business is hard sometimes. Parenting is hard sometimes too, and oftentimes, the correct way to handle things leaves someone's feelings hurt. That's unfortunate and sometimes unavoidable, but I fear in this case - that just may happen.

Ethics really don't come into play here. It's a clear cut case of merit. As a sideman - I fulfilled my responsibility to my partner. As an independant contractor, I will now continue to fulfill an responsibility to my client, and my customers. (yes, some of them are actually MY customers) if he asks me to hire on as a soloist.

My leaving this duo is the RIGHT thing to do.
Leaving now is the right time to do it.
Returning as a soloist will be a decision made by management and myself, and in no way concerns the feelings of the drummer.
Cold fact of life? Maybe.
Unethical action. No way.

I treated him well, and I will give notice as a gentleman. It'll be up to him to keep this job with a new partner when the house already has other ideas.
It's the survival of the fitest.
It'd be great if we could all always get along, but that just isn't possible in all situations.

This is where my participation ends in this discussion. Thanx for all who chose to add input. This is the "biz" part of Show Biz...and it's not always pretty or glamerous.

Take care all.

Doug, I sincerely apologize if I gave you the impression that I was rubbing your nose incessantly & unrelentlessly in your Technics keyboard choice, but I respectfully disagree with your charge. If you look back at those posts more closely, you'll find that I offered my subjective opinions on the matter only 'after' other people on the Technics forum had 'asked' for it. In fact, I gave the KN7000 'very high' marks in all areas except for its 'vocalizer'. Certainly a fair & complimentary assessment in my opinion and no cause for anyone to feel they made a bad kb choice. Doug, I felt (and still feel) that your KN7000 keyboard choice was 'not' a poor keyboard choice whatsover, and probably would have been my choice as well, if I hadn't required a good built in vocal harmonizer. Anyway, I'm glad to hear that whatever animosity was felt between us is behind us now and that we can now focus on our mutual support for arranger keyboards, no matter which one we currently own.

- Scott

Holy cow, Dave! I can't believe all the crap your little post has generated. If your job with the drummer didn't work out, too bad for him. Let's move on; this topic is mutating into something too strange for me.

You're right - it's over. I spoke with the owner tonight, and he said the drummer was going to be fired until he met me. I carried him this far, but it can't go on like this. He even mentioned that he saw a difference the last two weeks in me - my face is an open book, and he could tell I was unhappy.
I asked for a Wednesday night - he gave it to me, and then told me to give the drummer 2 weeks notice and I can have Thursdays too.

Let's move on folks. This issue is dead.

Dave, DonM figured it right. You did handle your response in a responsible and tactful way. Preaching? Putting myself in your shoes, now that you mention it, yes, I can see why you would say that. However, and I say however, put yourself in my shoes. Your right! You did ask and ethics was in the equation. So in my eyes, not preaching, but my point of view after over fifty eight years in one business (contracting) and many years in three other endeavors, was given. Now Dave, my philosophy on life and ethics, good and evil, acceptable and unacceptable is not the same as it once was. I suppose in two more years when my life rolls into the eight decade there might be an alteration here and there. One thing in common that we both have is telling it like we see it. We mean what we say and we say what we mean. That could be good or it could be bad. In any event, people are not left guessing how we see things. A good example is Scotty and me. We were looking at the same words but each had different colored glasses on.

So Dave, and Scotty also, let me stick my neck out now and ask a question. Did we gain anything useful to enrich our lives in all this or has all the banter just been crap mutating into something too strange to understand, as cassp is led to believe.

I always like to look to the positive side of things and say yes. Many views can exist side by side and be a source of value. My gosh! If everybody liked the same beauty that I do, I might not have my Ruthie today, picking on me.

And Dave, I said it before and I’ll say it again, I do like you. Maybe a little different in some respects, but not a phony. And Scotty, thanks for the words. I agree, let's move on. Come-on Dave, I'll try to write something you might like again.

Doug

Douggie....
Aw, you old softtee !
Just when I think you've gone "Grandpa" on me, you turn into my buddy again!
Truthfully, no one here (and I mean NO one) - has ever pushed me to any limit tht I couldn't handle. This place is very special to me - controversy and all.

I encourage all of you to make an effort to make some personal contact with each of the members that you can .... it really helps close any gaps that the typeface seems to generate.
Take Scott and I - on paper, we seem to rattle each other's cage a bit, but we talk on the phone every so often and I'm always glad to hear from him. I consider him a friend and collegue.
The written word is not enough to translate true emotions ...... so we all need "reminders" to keep us grounded.

I look forward to many more "energetic" discussions that make us think.
Thinking is good.
Friendship is the best.
Thinking about friends while playing music ......
I can't explain just HOW good that can be.