I've seen numerous posts about likes and dislikes about the keyfeel, and wishes for weighted keys on the PSR's.. Here's my take on this.. If you want weighted keys then buy a digital that has a graded keyboard.. When you get into todays keyboards that have large voice banks, weighted keys don't really work well into the equation and here's why... I don't care how well your fingers can move up and down a weighted keybed because there are voices like the sax, guitar, bass, and most importantly the drum kits, that do not work well with weighted keys.. Anyone ever try to fly on a sax solo with weighted keys?????? It doesn't work properly... It takes longer for the key to come back up thus limiting the solos possibilities... Also anyone ever try to crank out a drum beat on weighted keys... My take on that "VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE" I've played drum set for many years and there are things on the hi-hat, snare, bass, and toms that are impossible to do with a weighted keybed.. You have to be a pro at step recording to do these things, and when that's done the drums lose the natural feel, and sound like they were step recorded. A weighted keybed is nice, but I feel is only applicable to paino based instruments... If you want to rip out killer guitar solos, sax solos, and heart pounding drum beats the furthest I'd go is semi-weighted keys.. The best semi-weighted keyboard I've ever used for playing ALL instruments was the Roland XP-60.. That had a nice keybed. Yave to keep in mind that a weighted keyboard is designed to work best with piano based instruments. When you're playing other voices those weighted keys can get in the way and limit your music.. When I was up north in Erie PA I was at our local music store and I was playing on the new Yamaha Motif.. After years of practice I've been able to rip out drum beats recorded in realtime that sound great, and not recorded one part at at time like bass first, then overdub the snare over it.. I can Play the hi-hat, bass, and snare at the same time, I can also do fills at without overdubbing.. This took a lot of practice, but has really boosted my music.. After playing drums manually on the Motif, I had numerous sales reps, and shoppers come and ask me how in the hell did I do that.. One sales rep said "those are the best keyboard drums I've ever heard"... and said he's been playing for years and couldn't do this.. I asked him what he played on and he said a Kurzweil digital.... I told him that's the problem and explained the issue of weighted keys and how they affect specific instruments.. I then moved to a Digital piano they had in the store, I think it too was a Kurzweil, and then played the same drum beat on that, and EVERYONE heard the differnce.. With the weighed keys the beat was sluggish and didn't sound good. My point, weighted keys are nice, and I too love to use them, but only when playing voices that require weigted keys, but when I'm using voices that require a quick key return, I'd rather use non-weighted.... I know everyone hates using a lot of gear when performing, but a good 88 key controller can be hooked up to your keyboard, and they're not heavy at all.. This way you can have the 88 weighted keys you want, and you'll have the ability to use both in a performance.

I agree.
DonM

One exception to the rule....

On the whole, your logic makes complete sense.

However, if you can only afford only ONE keyboard, and you are a beginner and practicing scales, arpeggio's, runs, fills, etc. would it not be more advantages to practice on a weighted keyboard than a synth weighted keyboard? Once you develop the finger dexterity on that keyboard, moving to a semi-weighted or non-weighted keyboard will make your fingers fly.

Again, if you can only have ONE keyboard wouldn't it be nice to have a weighted keyboard with the features of an exotic arranger?

Just a different point of view...

Regards,
Al G

I totally understand what you're saying, but you have to look at it this way.. If you want to learn to play the piano, and build your finger strength up playing weighted keys, then I don't suggest buying an arranger as the firt keyboard... Being a musician can be a steep investment. Of course funds can limit what you'll be playing, but personally I wouldnt buy an arranger for practicing scales.. I'b buy a small 88 key digital.. Those prices have dropped and you can get one now for less than the PSR-2000. If you want to run scales, and learn how to use those keys, I think this is the route to take... Later on you could invest in a more complicated keyboard..... I sold MANY casio arrangers to beginners, and when showing people how to use them, it was like I was talking in another language... So many new players see all those buttons and it scares them. Also having one keyboard and what you get really depends on what you want to do with your music.. I've sold arrangers and had people bring them back because they said it's too much for a beginner to learn, and wanted something that didn't have so many features. Again it depends on your ability and skill level when you start playing. Trust me I know all about the only being able to have one keyboard... I've been playing piano for over 20 years and learned to play on a acoustic piano, now all I have is a PSR-550.. Big difference.... It was all the years of playing the big one first and then moving on to a keyboard that helped me... However it all depends on your budget and what you want to do with the keyboard...

Squeak

Most of the folks I know that tell me they like weighted keys are ex piano players. They have the tendency to pound on the keyboard's keys so hard that they eventually manage to break the key switches. Let's face reality--it's not a piano. If someone pounded on their computer's keyboard that hard, they would be buying a new keyboard on a weekly basis.

Squeak's point about the runs for guitar, sax and other instruments makes a lot of sense. Hey, the next thing they'll want is weighted finger pads on a sax, clarinet, etc. A keyboard is a snnth--not a piano, and it surely does not lend itself to weighted keys. But, that's just my opinion.

By the way Squeak, did you ever get around to buying that new PSR-2000?

Gary

Travlin'easy,
I couldn't agree with you more.. Good point about ex piano players, and that it's not a piano, but a keyboard that has keys to replicate the feel and playing style of a piano... I'm always shocked when I hear about people snapping keys... Nope don't have a PSR-2000... I figure I'll be buying that with my Social Security Check (in about40 years or so..)

Squeak

Would you believe? (Maxwell Smart). I'm sitting here trying to learn to play piano on my PSR2000. I'm in linefor a Casino job playing just piano, and I've never done it. Most difficult thing to learn is the left hand and the sustain pedal. Right hand is no problem. I started out loading the PSR9000 "Piano only" style into the 2000 and started playing along with them. It's a great learning tool, and you can even use them to fake playing the piano, but that's not the way I want to do it.
The next month or so I'm playing almost every night at a Piano Bar (using the 2000) so I will be able to practice on the pigeons, I mean patrons, there.
DonM

When I was reading the Harmony-Central synth BBS most players there would say:
Piano - Weighted keys
Organ - Non weighted
Synth - Non weighted
Many musicians (who can afford it) have a weighted keyboard for piano and non-weighted for synth/organ. If I had the money I wud buy a weighted piano board to go along with my PSR550 (even though I have never played piano) (dream on buddy).
Starkeeper

SqueakD,
I have a chorus and another melody line or instrumental break for acoustic. Will try my hand at recording tonight.
Starkeeper

Starkeeper,
You're right... Most musicians prefer weighted keys to piano based instrument sounds, but prefer a synth for the rest.. I too would love to have a 88 key weighted controller to hook up to my PSR-550.. Boy that's be great. With my 2 tier keyboard stand I could place the 88 key controller on the bottom and put the 550 on the top at an angle.. Boy that would work nicely.. Oh crap! almost forgot.. "I'm broke.. " IO look foward to hearing what you added to the song. I've been working on it too, and pulled off a really nice sweet flute solo,,,

Squeak

SqueakD,
You've played piano for 20 years, played in a blues band and play guitar, but you don't read notes or know chords!!!!!!
Hmmmmmmmm.
Starkeeper

Great minds think alike. I was thinking that the instrumental break should be a flute solo. Love that flute.
Starkeeper

Wild isn't it...??? I just know what sounds good together on the piano.. Guitar I know some chords and so forth, but not by reading actual notes.. I can read tabs easily. Piano just throws me for some reason.. I See all those notes going everywhere and I think there is a valve that shuts off in my brain.. I've actually looking into taking lessons and have met with instructors.. Every instructor I talked to suggested that I just continue what I'm doing now, and that all the lessons could possibly change my style of playing. One instructor said that to watch my fingers and my overall posture and technique while playing, it looks like I've had many years of lessons. I've even tried to teach myself to read music, but always get lost in it because I'll be humming a tune to myself while working on it, and then get an idea for a song, and jump right on the keyboard to whip it out before I forget it... Then I go back to the lesson and I'm totally lost... It's funny actually....

Squeak

Starkeeper,
Tell ya what.. I'll record a short piano composition tonight and send it to you.., tell me what you think of it and if it sounds like I've been taught to play.. Might even throw in some strings or something to bring it out a bit...

Squeak

Hey Squeak...you've still got a nice vintage Lincoln to sell, have you forgotten?

Hi! I do believe that everyone who has the music in his heart can play and sing without any lessons. Sometimes too many lessons can stop the heart to sing!!! Is God who's giving us the inspiration and God lives in the heart not in the brain!
Please excuse my humble opinnion!
Flavi.

Dreamer,
No way am I going to get rid of the Lincoln... The price I got that thing for is unheard of and most people say I stole it because of what I actually paid... Hell if I sold the Lincoln, I could get a Tyros, PA-80, Pa-60, PSR-1000, PSR-2000 and still have some money left over to play with... Not going to do it though.. Wife and I need 2 cars.. It's actually quite funny though.. As broke as I am, to see me driving around in my car you wouldn't think it. My car is nicer than some of the attorneys here at the firm. I know that has pissed some of them off.., considering I make a hell of a lot less than they do...

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 01-07-2003).]

Squeak_D,

I think there are a few types of keys :

a. 'Piano'-keys with real hammer-action that are relatively slow-moving and need most energy to play.

b. Weighted (non-hammer) keys, have some extra weight built-in, have a solid feel.
(sometimes called : Semi-weighted)

c. Non-weighted, non-hammer-action 'weightless' plastic keys, pretty noisy, Feel toy-alike.

d. Standard-width keys (165 mm per octave)

e. Non-standard keys (160 mm per octave)
(Yammies )

Most of the posts I remember were about keyFEEL and not about wishes to have real-weighted (hammer) keys.

I do not like type a. c. and e. keys at all but I prefer a combination of b. and d.

regards,

Roel

Squeak, Yea. send me a piano solo. Would love to hear it. I am not knocking musicians that are self-taught. We are way off thread here, but I think there are many that would disagree with Flavie. Taking lessons gives you musical knowledge, so you know why you are playing certain notes and chords and this gives a musician the tools to build on. On the other hand lots of jazz musicans never took lessons. I took one piano lesson recently, and the teacher was not interested in teaching me to read notes.
I am wud like to read notes, but am mostly interested in learning accomapaniment. You don't need to read notes to do that. Just to confuse things further, there are clasically trained piano players that became synth players.
Starkeeper

Roel,
Combine C and E and you got Yammie all the way..

Squeak

Starkeeper,
I'll send that out to you tonight.. Will only take me 3-5 minutes to record. I sometimes get carried away too. Especially if I say well I'm just going to record a piano track.. After I record that, something clicks in my head and says "you know this would sound good too" then after that happening constantly the song that was supposed to be just one track turns out to be 10 or so... I'll try not to do this... I'll try to keep it simple. I think I impress my wife at times when i just play the piano voice. She often hears me soloing with saxes and guitars, but when she actually sees and hears me playing piano alone I think she enjoys that more. I'll go from one extreme to the other.. I'd be playing a hardcore blues song then out of no where whip out a beautiful piano piece... I guess I'm an odd ball.

Squeak

Hey Squeak, Welcome to the club. There are a lot of folks that play professionally that cannot read a note. I personally only play what the voices in my head tell me to play. Began at age 7 playing piano, picked up a guitar at age 12 and played my first paying gig at age 17 while I was a kid in the U.S. Navy and seeing the world from the decks of a Heavy Cruiser. Didn't tough a keyboard until about 15 years ago, but I've updated many times since then.

I, like you, tried to read music for a lot of years, took a few lessons, but when it came to reading from the sheets and playing at the same time, there was a mental block that I couldn't overcome. Everytime I looked at the song title, the music popped into my head and the darned fingers just automatically went to the keys that seemed right.

Don't let the ability to not read music bother you--it really doesn't matter to your audiences unless they're a bunch of folks from Peabody Institute that would pick apart anyone that plays--including Bethoven.

As for buying the keyboard, sell that damned Lincoln, buy a 2000, play lots of high paying gigs, then upgrade to a Rolls, drive it to the law office and hand them your resignation. Now that's poetic justice!

Gary

Squeak,
I love the sound of the piano, also like organs, guitars, and of course flute. The Sweet Tenor Sax is also very nice on the 550.
Send me some blues too, if you like.
Have you heard an instrumental called Pipeline by the Chantays? The cool!electric voice sounds like the guitar on Pipeline.
Starkeeper

Travelin'easy,
I don't think, not being able to play sheet music, bothers squeak at all. I looked at the music played at our church, and all there is on the sheets are words with chord names above them.
Starkeeper

I agree too, but to play a good piano, nothing beats weighted keys. Well and since only scott can afford a real baby grand , gosh i wish i could.
But my ultimate goal is to add a good stage piano to my gear, 88 keys weighted with some real good piano samples.
BTW, I love the semi-weighted feel of my G1000 keyboard, I used to have a D50, and since then i am hooked to these keys

It all depends on what you bought your board for and like anything else you can't generalise stuff like key feel / response.

That being said Bear with me whilst I generalise

I think I read somewhere (and it is certainly true in my case) that the most played 'voice' on any arranger, and by the majority of users, is the piano. Look at all the interest there was not long ago in comparing the piano sounds of many major boards.

I will conceed that if you bought your board as a sound module and sequencer then the keys will be of little interest to you anyway. But to take the argument to it's logical conclusion then to get the absolute best and authentic drum sound you need to buy something with a skin on it and hit it with a stick. To get the absolute best and authentic sax you need to buy a bendy pipe and blow in it. Likewise to get the best piano sound you need to buy an acoustic piano (and bang on it??). Electronic sampled sounds are going to be second best every time.

We expect our boards to be everything to everyone and sound like we paid tens of thousands of pounds for a studio full of instruments! Aint gonna happen really is it?

Having said all that ....in my own personal experience I have never played a keyboard that has inspired me to play (by sheer keyfeel alone) as much as the 9000pro. I know I am bound to say that as I only just bought it but it is true. The key feel is fantastic in my opinion.

Maybe my sax solo's dont fool no-one into looking over their shoulder to see where the guy with the bendy pipe is when I play. To be honest they never did anyway! I think everyone guessed it was me all along

Best wishes to all
Tony W

I agree with all the arguments for and against weighted keyboard actions that have been presented. I keep a Fatar SL-990 weighted keyboard controller for playing at home ( good action and cheap for $399 ) that I plug other keyboards into. Weighted keys are much better for accurate timing. But when I go to band rehearsal I don't bother with the extra weight and just take my SY-77 or PSR-550 instead.

As a trained classical pianist I sometimes hanker after hammer-action weighted keyboards, but only when trying to play classical piano. The rest of the time the (notoriously) squelchy PSR2k keys do the job adequately well.

Also IMHO a well sorted hammer action is usually the fastest(!) because you use the keyboards natural rebound action in your favour. Try playing a fast trill on a crud keyboard then do it on something classy. No contest!

Actually, I rather have 76 or 88 keys than a weighted keyboard. I find 61 keys very restrictive especially for an arranger keyboard where you will definitely split the keyboard.

AL G

Lot's of good points here. My own experiences have led me to prefer something in between, or better yet a couple of boards with different feel. My earliest setup was a Hohner Clavinet ( tight weighted action ) and an old Silvertone organ ( looser than anything ever made by Yamaha ) . My first real live setup ( circa 1983 or so ) was the Yamaha CP 25 Electric piano and the Korg Poly six synth. You couldn't get a bigger contrast in key feel between those two. I loved the board, but the CP25 keys seemed to fight me to move, while the Polysix action seemed to be about what the PA80's is. I played them stacked ( you could fit a keyboard, several drinks, a full course meal, and a few other things on top of that CP 25 ), and at times I did left hand bass on the CP and right hand rythyms and leads on the Poly6.

Today my main setup is the Motif and the PA80. The Motif has semi weighted action that still feels rather light compared to a real piano or to the CP25. The PA80's keys feel lighter than the Motif but are noticably tighter than the ones on the PSR2000. I totally agree with lighter key feel for emulating lead instruments like sax or guitar. The good news for me is that I prefer those particular sounds on the PA80 vs the Motif, although both have a good enough key feel for me to work those sounds. The Mo is often my choice for acoustic / electric pianos, drums, bass, and synth sounds, and the action works just great for all of that too. The bottom line is that I like the action on both and can easily go back and forth ( very easily compared to my 1983 setup ). On the other hand, the PSR 740 / 2000 were ok when I had them, but the key feel was so spongy that I had to adjust my playing to them to the point that I never really got totally comfortable with it, especially for piano or percussive instruments. Even though the PA80 has a light touch, there is more resistance and the keys seem to spring back a little better, which actually helps me to better emulate the solo's that I want to play.

AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 01-08-2003).]

I got my PSR for the organs and the styles. I can't play piano music on it and don't really want to. I play piano music on the piano. If I didn't have a grand piano I would probably get a CVP of some sort. That doesn't answer the question, it just says what others are saying - horses for courses and it's your own personal choice. There aren't any rules in this game.

Bryan

Bluezplayer,
Have you used the sampling section of the sequencer on the Motif??? Added something like a live guitar riff to a song? I never got the chance to try that out yet... On thing that is true is that the Yamaha PSR's (9000 Pro, Tyros, and PSR-9000 not included), have a spongy keybed.. I too had to adjust myself a little to play it.. That's one main reason I won't use the PSR-550 for heavy drum work... It always makes me nervous when I do fast hi-hat and snare work on the keys.. It just seems like they'll break on me.. When I need to do some heavy drum work I always use my drum machine, which I use most of the time anyways Oh AJ, did you see the Motif Rack??? It's supposed to be released this month.. I don't think it has the sequencer, but is more of a sound module... It's still a good rack though.. I wonder what the price will be..

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 01-08-2003).]

Hi squeak,

I haven't used "one shot " type samples in the Mo ( like guitar riffs ), but I have sampled my own guitar ( one or more wav from each string ) and combined it with the internal guitar voices. I also made a sample of the PA80 guitar string pluck noise ( much better than the one on the Mo ) and use it in the Motif. The 2000 had that session guitar sound in it going on which was pretty cool, but the string pluck noise from the PA80 allowed me to make versions that I like even better on both the PA80 and the Motif.

I had heard that the Motif rack was coming out, but have not seen any prices yet. The sound module would be cool too, a I couild live without the sequencer. I use the Mo sequencer a little ( usually when I'm recording a short phrase or an arp ), but I still prefer using Sonar ( and even XG works at times ) over any kb sequencer.

I had actually condsidered for a minute selling the Mo and using the funds toward a Tyros, but after thinking it through ( for a minute or two ) that isn't gonna happen. With money being an issue ( at least for now ), key feel and all, I'd even consider revisting the 2000 for a backup for the occasional live work ( it's very occasional these days ) , but I still want to try the Tyros out anyway.

The Mo is great for the electronic stuff. If I could scrape together the money for a Tyros, great. If not, I'll have to "settle" for what I have now. I want to move to a more electronic sound for at least some of the things I do anyway, and work on improving my guitar skills so that I can play real guitar all the time on blues / jazz pieces. Despite the excellent advances of late, part of it is that I'm not always satisfied with the way any kbs ( or even samples ) imitate some acoustic instruments. You can do fine in playing situations with the emulations, but trying to do it at a level that will sound like the real thing ( at a pro level or beter said at a level for a recording I'd want to release ) is a lot of work ( sometimes just sequencing and adding nuances AFTER I play in real time ) and sometimes seems unachievable . I realize that knowing the nuances of each instrument is important, but even with years of practicing and messing witrh samples sometimes the results don;t please me. I am toying with using differet controllers ( wind , breath etc ), but the bottom line is at some point I just want to sit down and create freely. ( sorry.. straying way off to fodder for another topic )


AJ

I sure hope the rack has a decent price.. If it's just a sound module with no sequencer or sampling, then hopefully they put a fair price on it.. I remember the EX-5 rack.., that thing had a high tag because it also carried the sequencer and sampler from the Keyboard models, and even had the knobs .

Squeak