further, imo, when you buy a synth, all you "own" is the hardware...all the software, including rom chips, sound samples, drum rhythms etc etc, are really only under licence, to be used in the creation of your OWN projects...and i believe the likes of yamaha, korg, roland et al, are granting this "tacit" licence with the purchase of their hardware.
dennis

Miden fair enough you are on the same kind of opinion of what i am about all this but... I should have re written that comment i posted because it does sound harsh lol but i was more or less kinda laughing at it because it sounded so fundamental...

seriously - its ok to copy it because it comes out of speakers as 'sound waves'... thats what really made me laugh

And there is another aspect of resampling keyboard sounds that no-one has mentioned.

Simply sampling the final output of a complex multisampled instrument consisting of layered samples most of the time will never compare with the original hardware. Sure it may sound ok but it will never have the same dynamics. Layered sampled sets eg consisting of attack samples, resonant samples and maybe even multiple sustain samples plus samples that switch based on velocity can have independant ADSR, filters and velocity response so the sound responds to your playing style can't be captured accurately by simply sampling the overall output.

If I like the way a keyboard sounds and responds to my playing style then I'd always choose the original hardware. Any sampled copy will always be a second rate imitation.

And there is another aspect of resampling keyboard sounds that no-one has mentioned.

Simply sampling the final output of a complex multisampled instrument consisting of layered samples most of the time will never compare with the original hardware. Sure it may sound ok but it will never have the same dynamics. Layered sampled sets eg consisting of attack samples, resonant samples and maybe even multiple sustain samples plus samples that switch based on velocity can have independant ADSR, filters and velocity response so the sound responds to your playing style can't be captured accurately by simply sampling the overall output.

If I like the way a keyboard sounds and responds to my playing style then I'd always choose the original hardware. Any sampled copy will always be a second rate imitation.


RIGHT, this is the basic aspect of the resampling that I had try to explain.

After you "resampling" one Musical instruments ( keyboards too) you can NEVER reproduce autentically the original sounds, this just because WE sampling the sounds BUT we can NOT then reproduce the all realtime filters, SA articulation, modelling that the original instrument have implemented.

Gigastudio have a lot of this features BUT try to insert this all features, same layer velocity, switch, SA articulation need a LOT of time and at the end will be never CLONED identical like the original.

The BIG problem of this 3 big brands is the ROM/FLASH soundbank, some are limited to 32Mb, others to 64Mb, 128Mb and some up to 300-400Mb ROM set.
For developing 800-1000 sounds ( like the E-80) and store it inside 128Mb flash, you can understand how much work they must have, reduce the sampe less as possible, mono version, 16 or 32Khz bandwich.. ( i get the same problem when we try to fit the all GM sounds under the Dream chip and you can not believe how many shitty trick we have to use for reduce the sounds in some Kb...)

Maybe is this the BIG work that James try to explain here and for that they try to protect.

After you connect the line OUT to the PC Line IN and record the sounds, the new sound created will be totally different from the original.

Under Gigastudio/Extreme sample converter , we DO NOT care what is the output file size, because under Mediastation with the Linuxsampler, we can loading one giga sounds of 100-150Mb in less than 0.5 second.
Giga sounds with about 30-50Mb in less than 0.2 seconds.
Sometime you lose more time to press the key and return to play the keyboard that the giga sounds is already loaded!

How James sayd, sample system is available from 80'..
Tyros 2 have now 1Gb ram, you can also load the 886Mb of the Piano offered..BUT how many hours do you have waitng untill the sounds is ready to play?
Seem happen to others embedded keyboards too, dont worry.
This is the BASIC embedded SAMPLER problem for the all others keyboards, including the Wersi, because they still use the AKAI format and they have to load in RAM first.

Streaming system is a totally new generation Sampling, where Untill under Windows ( Kontact/Gigastudio) for loading 100-200Mb chace layering sample you still need 10-20 seconds, under Mediastation, Linux OS we make the same in just 1-2 seconds and latency fixed to 2.9ms!

For this now for the MS is available about 22Gb of giga library...where the other can store this all sounds??
When they will start to streaming samples, they have to start to use PC system, after they have to value what to do, BUY windows license and Streaming sampler engine OR devepoe again from scratch the streaming engine? ( this mean YEARS of work)


Ok..we return back to the copy issue...

At the end, we are allowed to sampling the all what we like, because IF 8 but only IF) the big 3 will try to make a TRUE comparation legally, they will find ONLY a second Hand sampled sounds and NEVER the original.
If you will proceed legally, you have to PROBE " 1 to 1" that the RAW sample is the same, BUT, where the original RAW sample is about 1-2Mb max, why then under GIGA format we have 100-200Mb for the same sounds?
Are they then TOTALLY the same to compare legally?
You will LOSE all before you start..
Maybe for that, that untill today ( in this last 4 years ) we do NOT get 1 call, Email, Fax, letter?
Maybe they know that they can do really nothing??
We will see when the all others GIGA library are ready to download and when our custumers can FREE choose what to download for reproduce ( partially of course) the all other keyboards/synths available, without PAY nothing.
Of course IF you feel that is not legally to download for FREE this all sounds, just dont download it and play the only sounds that you like.

If i hire a video tape from the video store...

make copies of it onto other blank videos and sell it for profit...

these copies technically are not the same quality as the original because of all the dubbing... does this make it legal??

perhaps there are different laws for 'dubbing' keyboard samples and selling them because they are technically not the same quality as the original samples...

please excuse my ignorance.. i dont mean to make it sound so silly but the concept of my story does flow with what is being debated here...

i think the big three didn't do anything because either:
1. they benefit from the situation... (how? - i don't know, or let you think)
2. they know their systems are (still) better.
3. you are too small for them to care.

I think that slowly people are coming to understand the point I am making.
People are beginning to see I am talking about a concept not just the narrow point of sampling v. resampling.
It is really not a question of sampling v, resampling as some people would have you believe or right v. wrong, or good v. bad but a question of money.

The keyboard manufacturers probably are not doing anything right now because like Nigel and I were trying to explain to every one, a sampling (industry talk resampling) of a T2 is not a T2. The result of the sound is not the same as the actual sounds on the T2 (all the nuances). The features on the instrument that is playing the sampled sounds of the T2 is not the same as the actual T2. It is the same CONCEPT with a real piano and a sample on a keyboard.

To those of you who are not quite understanding the CONCEPT I am talking about, take for example some one who is a true piano player and fanatic. They may like the idea of having a sampled piano on a keyboard, but they know that it doesn’t even come close to playing a real piano.

When you play a keyboard that just have a sampled piano, you are just playing selected parts of the sound of a real piano (that is just what the keyboard manufacturer could capture). Now, when you play a real piano, it is a totally different experience. The actual sound and all its nuances, physical construction and just the experience of playing such an instrument can not be captured in a sample of that piano.


Likewise, when you play a mediastation that just have samples sounds of a T2, you are just playing selected parts of the sounds of a real T2 (that is just what the mediastation could capture). Now, when you play a real T2, it is a totally different experience. The actual sounds and all their nuances, the integration of sounds and styles, physical construction and just the experience of playing such an instrument can not be captured in a sample of that T2.

I would be very surprised if Yamaha takes a stand based on a “moral” position that it is wrong to sample (industry name resample) their T2 since CONCEPTUALLY they have been doing the same thing with sample original acoustic instruments. They would assess the situation and see if it hurts them financially now and in the future.

Maybe Lionstracs have run out of ideas themselves for the Mediastation and this is why they are sampling other manufacturers sounds?

I suppose if we don't see Yamaha complaining or filing a copyright case against Lionstracs then what Dom is doing is certainly all above board and if it manages to sell him some instruments then you can't blame him for going down this route.

Hi Lionstracs
1. Disc streaming and Giga sampler is not new technology, it came out in the late 90s early 2000s.
2. Wersi has had the option to use Gigasamples since OAS 4, (2002) however it only came standard with the Giga Piano, as most customers preferred to use the disc streaming technology of Steinberg and Native Instruments.
3. Sample loading time in a PC is not determined by the OS, but by the speed at which the hard disk can transfer the data.
4. Disc streaming does not play the whole sound off the hard disk, part of it is loaded into ram so that when you press a key it plays the part in ram first, giving the hard disk time to supply the rest of the sample.
5. If you look at the music software industry you will find that it is slowly moving away from sampling and moving towards sound modelling. (Due to increasing computer power)

Hi Adimatis
1. All the Rom, Ram and hard disks included with hardware instruments come from the computer industry, (Keyboard manufactures do not make any of their own) however as it takes between 2 – 3 yrs to develop a new board (The hardware is finalised first) the technology used in them will always be old. (This is the reason the T2 only has USB 1 and uses PC100 Ram, as this was the most common at the time)
2. Try playing a Graded Hammer Action Keyboard controlling a sampled piano VST like Ivory, NI Acoustic Piano etc, and then say samples cannot produce the interactions of a genuine piano. (The reason the samples are large (2-3 GB) is because the nuances you mention are also sampled.
3. Sound modelled pianos are now starting to become available, which means that instead of actually recording the sound in a sample, the sound is produced in the same way as a real piano, the main difference being that in a real piano the sound is produced by strings, whereas in a computer it is produced by virtual strings. (Therefore a large amount of memory is not required, just a fast CPU)
Hope the above clarifies a few things
Enjoy whatever you play

Bill