OK - this is my second time around with the PA80 (it's actually my THIRD unit)
The new o/s 3 has a marked improvement in a few spots but there are still a few things missing ... Listen up, KORG !
1)Global EQ, or a way to shut OFF the "loudness" contour that is built in. The bass booms too much and the speakers can't handle too much else at the same time (re: vocals)
2)Set up a sequence while a pattern is running. We need to search for "what's next" while we are doing something. This is important ... please try to do this.
3)The selected sound should NOT be cut off if you change from split to full mode. The abrubt cutoff is very unpleasant, and should be avoided.
4)All three right hand sound layers need to be able to transmit on the SAME midi channel. I need to send note values to my harmonizer, but if I choose voice layer two or three - they are sent on different channels than the first layer.
5)EASIER rhythm loads from disk - this is a confusing issue - it's not easy to load new styles .... too complicated as it stands .... needs to be a no-brainer
6)ALL new keyboards with hard disks need a way to search the disk with a ten key type pad - the PA80 lets you call up sequences by a number, but a letter would be much better .... who can remember numbers ?? AND, they change as you add songs to the disk.
7)Needs a better mixer / effects section. It's too hard to decide how to send one effect here, and another there .... it needs a "yamaha-esk" interface.

There are a few more things that erk me, but these are the biggies for now.
The button pushes, and locations is still an issue that Yamaha has perfected - The Korg method is still too clumsey.

Hello

You know I've been struggling with the decision whether to get a PSR2000, a PA80, or both. And...it sure is a tuff decision after seeing the above. Also a post by Scott Yee in the Yamaha forum (I think) about the PA80 not being able to handle the expanded jazz voicings like the PSR2000 which I am planning to learn.

It seems like in a nutshell for me right now anyway the sound of the PA80 just buries that PSR2000. Man, that piano sounds tinny on the 2000 compared to the 80.

I like the easy load of styles in the 2000, not much need for a hard drive. I think I could gig out on either one of these right now. I could use loaded styles on the Yamaha but not on the Korg. By the way how DO you load those styles on the Korg. Once you know how is it a quick load like the 2000? The guys at the store where I have been looking at the PA80 don't know how to run it and don't want to learn, so I have to write in to forums to learn and then drive an hour to the store to try it. I just don't get it yet. Especially when only one of the many disks I've tried works and I don't know why.

Also, can anybody tell me about the vocal-harmonizer in these two units? I play trumpet and can easily use the transpose button to go down to Bb. BUT..I have only been able to try this feature on the Yamaha and it sounds to me like a bunch of bumble bees flying around. Really. I wonder if it sounds any better on the Korg.

So, my final synopsis for now: they're both light, with the 2000 winning out there. The Yam seems much more user friendly compared to the Korg, BUT I like the styles and sounds of the Korg a whole lot better with the option to use sampled sounds with the flash card. I wonder how many voices you can have on the card, anybody know? Is it an easy process to use the sampler, or is this like all the other Korg stuff,...clumsy? OR.. once you learn the steps on the Korg for the things you want to do is it as easy as any other???

Well, thats all for now folks. Although I'm sure there's more to come.

Thanx

Scott

ScottL: Right. The 'reason' I can't consider Korg, Roland, or GEM arrangers (yet) is because none of them recognize the more sophisticated jazz type chord voicings. These chord voicings have become a trademark style for playing classic standards, especially 'two handed' stacked 4th voicings, which provide a cool 'open' sound (great for jazz inspired blues, as well as the famed altered Bill Evans (A&B) rootless voicings which provide a sophisticated flavor to classic jazz standards/ballads. I demontrated this to Andrea (Dreamer) when he visited me last week from Italy, by playing several songs, using different types of chord voicings (standard root, rootless, 4th voicings, etc), and he noticed 'right off' how much more pro sounding and impressive these jazz style chord voicings sounded on the songs I played (Misty, Night and Day, Girl From Ipanema, etc).



Hmmmm. I guess it's 'different strokes for different folks', because I came to the opposite conclusion, prefering the PSR2000's acoustic piano sample over the PA80.



I can't speak for the PA80, but, as a singer, I find the PSR2000's built in vocalizer works beautifully for me. In fact, I no longer need to take the standalone Digitech Vocalist Workstation to my gigs anymore.

I guess (for me) the PSR2000 has turned out to be a BIG surprise! I orginally purchased it only as a secondary inexpensive backup keyboard to my former Technics KN5000, but after playing & gigging with it, I quickly discovered I now prefer its much more realisticly impressive sounds (especially horns, woodwinds, and drums) over the KN5000, and after importing some of my key KN5000 styles (mostly jazz/swing/brushes) over to the 2000, sold the KN5000, and now perform (gig) on the PSR2000 exclusively. I think the PA80 is a great board with impressive styles, but for my taste, the styles are a bit too contemporary Korgish sounding (and a bit too busy) for my song repetoire tastes. I need styles to act as a backdrop (enhancing, yet not competing) with my live singing & keyboard playing. I also found the PA80's OS really un-intuitive, while I was able to confidently take the PSR2000 out gigging within a week.

The best from the 'other' Scott on the forum,

- Scott Yee

------------------
http://scottyee.com

Well, TWO Scotts now!
I agree with a lot of the comparisons, accounting for taste of course, but I'll address a few of the questions that Scott L has.

1)Harmonizer - Korg has a long way to go on this issue. The Yamaha is more flexible, and easier to use. It's also an option on the Korg and cost's about 200 bucks.
Harmonizing a trumpet signal might be tough for the processor - I never tried it with anything but voice. The tone of the Korg is great, and the effects are too - it just lacks the versatility and programmability that the psr has.

2)Piano sound - hmmmmmm, I don't really love either one, but after having both, I think I DO prefer the Korg to the Yamaha. I like the sample on the 9kpro better than the lower psr lines, but all the psr's have a similar, thin sounding piano that doesn't light my fire. Another point - the action is so light and mushy on the Yamaha, maybe that's why I can't get into the piano sound. I can't get the right expression from those cheesy keys. If all you do is hold chords down and pluck out melodies, I guess it's OK, but I like to "dig in" when I play piano, and the psr2k just doesn't fill the bill. I also have serious doubts about reliability. It's made so cheap .... I just don't trust it.

3)Chord voicings - I am a bass player, turned pianist out of necessity, so my left hand is limited. I am more comfortable playing my own bass lines, but when I use the arranger - I like to play simple, root position chords. It leaves me with more brain power to elaborate on my right hand voicings which is the "meat" of my sound. I NEVER use a sound in the left hand when the arranger is on. I only allow it to fill in AROUND my chord voicings that I play with my right hand. This way - the arranger is secondary to MY thoughts. I thin out the styles and take out other comping lines, so I have more space to play in. Works for me, and makes each song have it's own personality, rather than sounding like "rootrock" or "heartland" or "8beat1" - you know what I mean?

*** If these two keyboards were the same price, it would be an easier choice, I think, because the Korg has so much more in terms of expansion and storage, aftertouch etc..
The weight factor is very close, size too. The Korg has REAL power chord (no wall wart)
and the dual sequencer is very cool.
HOWEVER - at the price point .... the Yamaha has an awful lot of bang for the buck. The only thing that will keep it out of many player's hands ... is the cheap construction, and terrible key feel. I understand why our pals Scott Yee and Don Mason got used to it - they both had kn5000's and they had very, very light action as well. I never liked the 5000 for the same reason, and I hated the piano sound on it too.
If I had to give a personal recommendation of PA vs. PSR - I'd have to clarify it this way:

If you are a "style dependent" player and only "tickle" the ivories (plastic???)- the 2000 gives you more for your money

If you are more of an experimenter, and have a need for a beefier touch, and need the extra hard drive storage - the Korg will give you those options.

It all comes down to compromise - what are the MOST important features you need, and what bugs you the most. I miss a lot of the ease of the 2000, but I will never go back to that cheesy action again. The only way I would consider it would be if I used a separate controller to touch, and only used the 2000 as a sound source - it SHINES in that capacity. You still have a lot of thinking to do before you buy, huh Scott?

Scott L!
Hopefully you can go to store that has, psr2000, pa80, 9000 pro, and psr9000, so you can compare them yourself! After hearing good things about the psr2000 6 months ago... I went to sam ash intending to buy a backup to my psr9000! But I was so disappointed... I kept going back to the store for about a week... thinking I must be missing something... the keyboard seemed so cheap! Uncle Dave and lots on the board at that time were singing it's praises! But after a couple of months people started to post the poor keyboard quality of the board and no upgrade OS . Maybe yamaha will listen and make a special edition 2000PRO !!!!!!!
With hard drive option!
And Upgradeable OS!

It can then be my MINI- ME psr9000! LOL



[This message has been edited by rgtaa (edited 06-22-2002).]

HEY UD,
I, like you have bought a lot of keyboards since 1970 and for me it always comes down to the statement in your quote above. Once that decision is made I am able to buy the "right for me" keyboard. Because I have always bought the "right for me" keyboard, I have never had to take one back and exchange it for something else or get a refund. In fact I still have 11 keyboards here in my studio.
I now have all the tehcnics 5000 styles in the yamaha 9000, so I am as happy as a clam at high tide.
Best to all
Bebop

I think getting used to the things you do at home, such as creating styles and editing voices, is not that hard, but getting used to the things that happen or you do live is. e.g. I am afraid I will never get used to the abrupt cut off of voices when you change the voice.

PA80 sounds great. I particularly like the possibility of replacing the PA80 factory styles with user styles. I like voice editing capabilities too. There are many good things.. and there are many poorly designed features too.

Good luck in making a decision.

Shiral

Just buy a 9000 and go home happy!

[This message has been edited by TwoNuts (edited 06-22-2002).]

There is something about the PA80 that is VERY GREAT! It is special! I was swept off my feet when I first played it! But as some others have said... I started to notice bugs in it I couldn't live with. I would be proud to have the pa80 if they fixed them as my second arranger keyboard. I hope the pa60 addresses some of these bugs.
The psr9000 seems like a more mature arranger, higher class,more polished (which makes sense since yamaha has been making arrangers for years and the PA80 is KORGS very first ARRANGER ), ... but I like the Brashness of the PA80 too, although I've learned about adjusting the Sounds in the psr9000 I can get that IN YOUR FACE sound of the PA80 ... but in the PA80 ...it's factory set like that from the start!

In fact, I wasn't sure I liked the psr9000 in the beginning after owning the pa80... but the more i learned about it and played it ... i keep being surprised by it and all it can do...and it still Blows my Mind with what it can do!!! The pa80 had the opposite effect on me... I loved it instantly and fell out of love with it after a couple of weeks! Funny how it turned out!

I guess the styles issue is moot point, since you can import any BRANDS styles in any of these keyboards. Although, you should check yourself, I know psr has lots of free styles online, but, korg styles seems to be offline as of 6/22/02(fabio's site) ... but it might come back online. Irish ACTS has pa80 forum... Yahoo's pa80 forum is closed. And Awareness pa80 forum has only a few posts on site. Whereas yahoo psr styles forum has 2,500 people on it - with a File Database in the forum.





[This message has been edited by rgtaa (edited 06-22-2002).]

Oh, you're gonna get it now. Korg has been making arrangers for years. I3, I30, etc.
DonM

DonM!
You are Right!
I Goofed up BIG Time!
Weird how I could forget that!
Thanks for reminding me in nice way!
rgtaa

I found another anomaly tonight on the job. You all know how much I like to play manual bass .... well, I set up a nice patch with bass, rhodes and drums and saved it to my user memory. I called it up later to find that the bass patch is dedicated to the style selected, and not a separate part of it's own. Bummed me right out. I can get around it by writing a left hand(Lower) sound instead, but I like the dedicated button to just hit the bass on & off as I need it.
Other than that - we(sax & I ) sounded great tonight. I played mostly with that trio sound, and with the added sax ... it was SWEEEEEET.

The styles are so much better when you take OUT a lot of the stuff they program. It's just way too busy. When I first heard it, I liked the fullness, but after playing with it ... I decided that I MUCH prefer Yamaha's treatment of styles and rhythms. For the most versatility, I need solid, simple, swingin' styles. No fluff - that's MY job !

My current mission is to try and find as many of the psr2k styles as I can (in Korg format) and see if my impression of the PA80 changes. If the rhythms were simpler ... it would be so much better.

Oh yeah - another BIG thing ....
That STUPID, unmusical, anoying "break" button ! What's up wit dat?
Aaaagh !
It has a loud cymbal crash and it crashes no matter where you hit the button in the measure. Almost makes it unusable. Unless the break is needed at the exact beginning of a measure - it's worthless. I'd rather turn off the drums and start them again fresh.(use the start/stop auto buttons)
This HAS GOT to be fixed in a future update. Take out the crash and make the pattern cut smoothly whenEVER you hit the button ... all we need is a little silence !

I use an arranger for live play, studio work, and just to jam along with. I owned a 2000 and still have the PA80 after a year. I still like my PA80 a lot. Still, I have to agree with some of what Uncle Dave says. To add my 2 cents.....

I don't like the acoustic piano at all in either board. I have the Yamaha Motif and the ac piano sounds great in it. The one in the 2000 sounds nothing like it unfortunately. I think I dislike the ac piano even more in the PA80 though. Overall though I do prefer more of the PA80 sounds versus their counterparts on the 2000.

I am split on the styles. I like some from each board. Korg's sound more realistic to me and are very cool to play along to, but during live play I also find that some of them can be a bit too busy and fill up the space I wanna play in. Sometimes simpler styles, like some of the ones on the 2k, are preferable to me. I just turn some of the parts off though, plus I converted 80 of my favorite styles from Yamaha for the PA80 and worked on them 'til they sounded good to me.
Then there is the fills issue. Only 2 per style on the PA80 ( and some of the fills are " out there " . For me that's the biggest gaffe on the board. I happen to like the way the vocalizer responds better on the PA80 than on the 2000. ( to my real time left hand chord voicings .. strike 2 notes, get 2 harmonies, strike 4 , get 4 ..etc..) I am in the minority on this one though I'm afraid. If you wanted to know more about it, I explained the basics of how the PA80 harmonizer works in a tutorial I did over at the Irish Acts forum.

My biggest problem with my particular 2k though was that it was rather buggy, especially in the effects and registration areas. In many instances, what I saved ( voices, effects, etc ) might play properly one time and totally wrong the next time ( On the SAME registration ). This rendered the board unreliable for me for live play. To make matters worse, I tried to get these items addressed and repaired for many weeks, but Yamaha offered me no workable solutions. In 2 similar instances with PA80 customers, boards were replaced within 10 days.

Much of this is why I stuck with the PA80, even though I wanted to ( and almost did )love the 2k better for live use. Also, in my particular PA80, I have experienced zero bugs after a year + of use. It's been sturdy and reliable. The 2000 just felt too flimsy. I play pretty hard on the keys, and I KNOW I would have broken a key or the pitch wheel eventually ( I'm a joystick kinda guy anyway.. advantage - Korg ). When I broke the pitch wheel on my 740, it took 11 WEEKS before the Yamaha authorized repair guy was able to fix it. Glad I wasn't trying to make a living with the 740..

After I finally learned and understood it, I found the OS more intuitive and easier to navigate in the PA80 vs the 2k as well. This is somewhat of a surprise to me too, as the 740 I had before was about the easiest arranger I ever worked with.

Still, for me, a 2000 working properly would give the PA80 a run for the money in the live act. In the studio, no comparison for me. If I still had it I wouldn't use the 2000 there very much if at all. I have all the Yamaha sounds I want plus some excellent synth / workstation features in the Motif so there would be no point in it for me anyway. The PA80 has many more "workstation" like features in it than the 2k for my money. Full synth editing for patches on par with the Motif and most other comparable workstations out there. It has sampling and it has much better media storage capacity than the 2k. It is upgradable via flash rom and disk.

As far as loading the styles for play, there is also a tutorial at Irish Acts for that one too. I know it might seem perplexing atr first, but once you get the hang of it, the styles play from disk with ease. Disk operations in general were hard for me at first too on the PA80, mainly because I was used to the Yamaha OS and their way of doing things. Now that I have learned the PA80 way, I like it bettter.

For a home keyboardist who wants something to play along to, doesn't need a multitude of synth type features, and doesn't desire to spend a fortune, I would give a properly working 2k very high marks. It's a lotta bang for the buck.

Most important though, is the inspiration YOU feel when you play one of these or other boards. A while back, when I was trying different arrangers and getting my feet wet, I received a lot of useful info and many good recommendations at this forum. Having come from playing non arranger synths, it was very helpful to me because it kind of gave me a feel of what to look for from each board I tried. Still, I needed to try and experience what I felt would suit ME best, and I think that every player needs to do that for him / herself. The bottom line : Try a few for yourself as extensively as possible before making a decision.

AJ

I haven't used it a single time; it's just useless. It also uses the same kick and the cymbal no matter which drum kit use are using. I just can't believe a musician made this decision.

Shiral

What were they thinking??????

I agree. I never use the break function either, ( I also find it to be useless ) and I rarely even notice it's there any more. I'd like to be able to use it though.

AJ

Is the break button on the PA60 also?

AS far as the picture shows - there is NO difference in layout, styles, buttons ... it's all the same. They cut out some extras like "to host" port, harmonizer option, user-installable HD(bad move),EC5 socket - that stuff. It looks to be the same from the standpoint of styles, buttons and sounds.
Without a cheap HD option, I won't be excited about it.