How many of us have bought or NOT bought an arranger simply because it wasn't available to demo nearby. I bought and love my G70, but i wonder if i would have chosen a PA800 or a PA1x had there been one around to see and play. As I see and hear more about the PA800, it takes me back to my first arranger, an iX300. I loved it. How can we get merchandisers in our area to handle and publicize their inventory. I'm sure there has to be someone in the Detroit area who handles those Korg arrangers, but I don't who or where...

Good news indeed! I enjoyed your happiness, and the frustration with your hand! I will pray for the hand to get well soon, so you can play again! Again Congratulations!

Here ya go, cassp!
http://www.korg.com/service/dealerlocator.asp

I think you make a very good point. We who live in larger centres do have a reasonable chance of auditioning a variety of arrangers, etc. For those people in rural areas, I guess their choices are severely limited and they have to base their choices on informative forums such as this one, then hope their choice is the right one when the new keyboard arrives.

Yeah, renig I'mm familiar with that site. It lists all the Guitar Centers in Michigan - yeah they haven't had an arranger in all the time I've been using them. And then they list a few mom and pop places that probably do handle arrangers, BUT are not near the Detroit area. That's what I mean, you just can't preview all these boards we hear about because nobody stocks them.

My local guy has/had a few G70's but said its not the type of arranger his customers want - they want KN7000's. He balks at handling Yamaha because everyone and his brother seems to have them. When I asked about Korg or Ktron he just shrugged his shoulders. So it goes.

i agree with you cassp..in fact my recent purchase of the sd1+ proves it...if there are local stores you can usually take the keyboard home , trial it properly for a couple of days,and then either buy or return...but not when there are dealers around (in my case 300klms away)...i went on comments made in forums, and other places and online demos...BUT had i got this keyboard home i would not have bought it,as GOOD!!! as it is,because there are a couple of operational issues that dont work for me...but as you say so it goes, but it IS frustrating..
dennis

Maybe manufacturers are not pushing the product hard enough, in Yamaha's case, you can see the MOTIF's everywhere, at GC stores for example, lately some around the Dallas/Ft.Area are keeping the Tyros, The PSR1500/3000 but how long ago did this keyboards came out?
Ask an "expert" at GC about this keyboards and they just give you the look!

Korg keeps the OASYS, and Tritons in bunches, but only the pa50 arranger.....

------------------
www.tagworld.com/vicentelopez


HE'S COMING, MAKE MUSIC, GET READY!

Well I'm just about to buy the Korg PA-1X Pro Elite sight unseen!

The net can "show" you a keyboard these days I think, without you having to actually see one "in the flesh"....

I would say yes and no Hellboy. The net has definitely bridged some of the gap for me, so it isn't quite like the old days when you couldn't hear or see what a keyboard was like if it wasn't available locally.

Still, for me, I'm never really sure until it's in my hands. There are certain intangibles such as Key feel and OS navigation for example, that I can't really be sure of by reading about or by listening to a demo / seeeing a video.

The other thing that the net does is expose us to more equipment. Before the net, if my local stores didn't have it, I had to see it in a magazine or in use, or else chances are I may not have known it existed.


To answer the original question, Several times Cassp, ...PSR's 8000 and 9000, G1000, VA7, X1 and SD1, I-30, all of The GEMs... right off the top of my head. I initially joined this forum in order to try to find out more about certain boards, and perhaps where I could find them to try out. It's only in the past few years that my local store in upstate NY expanded ( big time ), and now they do carry and display several of the mid and top end arrangers. To me at least, it does make a difference.

AJ

Simple solution..
30 -45 day return policy

Its a hassle, but you got a point!



------------------
www.tagworld.com/vicentelopez


HE'S COMING, MAKE MUSIC, GET READY!

return policy subject to 15% restocking charge now(Guitar Center)....It only makes sense..this return offer has been abused for a long time..So if is worth a couple hundred dollars to check a board out..go for it...(It is worth it to me..to find out if I want to use a board I never tried before]..

Hello and greeting from a fellow Detroiter!
I was in the same boat as you. The only store that I could find that had arrangers that was within reasonable distance from my house was the GC in Southfield. I went there and saw that at the time they only had Yamaha arrangers. They had T2, PSR3000 and PSR1500. Unfortunately, the conditions to try out these instruments were very poor. T2 was not even hooked up and the PSRs were placed on a very tall rack (not easy to try out). The day I went there they had a water leak and water was dripping from a ceiling on the keyboards . Did not try out Roland or a Korg until I took a trip to Europe earlier this year.
Went to the same GC yesterday and saw that they now have a Korg Pa 50 and the new S500 BTW.
All in all, from what I have seen in the mass-merchant music stores in US, arrangers are not given a high attention. I spoke to a manager from a GC and he mentioned that, in the Detroit region, some GCs are not even carrying arrangers because the "perceived" interest is very low. The manager however, seem to think that it is on the contrary. He especially though that the oriental arrangers would be a big hit since we have a large Middle-Eastern population here.
Best regards,
Bart

[This message has been edited by Barty (edited 07-23-2007).]

If its that important to you & it will make you happy & you dont want to go the 30-45 day return buy off the Internet route.......then make an appointment..take a long road trip or even take a short flight to where ever it is that has the Unit you want to try out....bring money make a deal and take that baby home ......although that's not where the real decision ends........1 or 2 months later after you really dig into the KB's OS & /or start to gig with it in live navigational situations is where the real personal decisions are made for personal happiness which after that time period could still make you change, sell, upgrade or whatever.....here lies the benefit of a 30-45 day return policy.....do your homework first, ask questions, ask yourself what YOU really need this KB for & dont procrastinate JUST DO IT!!! Its not the end of the world & its not the last KB you'll even own Good Luck!

------------------
________________________

Donny

“ Choose a job you Love, and you will Never have to Work a day in your life! ”
________________________
And HUG Someone tight Everyday....
You'll Feel better afterwards

With all due respect Donny, the whole concept is to see and hear the darn things before you decide to buy. For sure, if I was hot to trot for keyboard I might do a little traveling to make the deal. I've done that, driving 3-4 hours to buy my Kurzweil and then the Allen organ for church.

But we're talking arranger keyboards here. I don't know diddly about Gem and wouldn't think twice about one until I ran into one way up north in Gaylord. Same with a Ketron and basically the same for Korg in many instances. I can surely find a Yamaha and probably a Roland, but I certainly have to drive more than 50 mikes to see anything else. For many people that's too much for them to consider those other keyboards.

Reread my post CASSP
"If its that important to YOU" nothing will change ....arrangers are less & less prevalent in most music stores if at all ....that's the bottom line with Internet sales alternatives rising daily vs the older players/younger set vs arrangers & synth workstations......either you HAVE to get your hands on what you want or its pretty much forum here say

Vilo,
GC on 635 and Midway have a couple of Tyros 2, but I just discovered that Murphy's music in Irving(183) have Korg PA 8oo, and PA1Xpro...I just bought PA1X pro elite from them.....hope this help, thanks!

Until the arranger manufacturers start producing arrangers more like the MM6 (but more pro quality) that cater as much to younger players tastes AS WELL as our own, arranger sales will continue to slip, and stores will be less and less inclined to stock something the majority of buyers have no use for.

And the raping of the elderly (us!) has got to stop...! There is no reason other than marketing why a highly technical, extremely well built (few arrangers have the build quality of even a modest workstation) and voiced workstation costs thousands less than it's equivalent arranger. Simply on a bang for the buck basis, arrangers are a very poor bargain.

WE all know how practical these types of keyboards can be for older, classic styles of music, but as squeak, and many of the younger dance, hiphop and techno players will tell you, they lack many of the features and sounds that make workstations so popular. I don't think it is the workstations' workflow that is so popular, but just the soundset, editing capabilities and certain arpeggiator and loop capabilities. If these were added to arranger capabilities, and styles developed that sound like something from THIS century, a whole new generation would come to accept them, and we wouldn't have as much problem finding them in the stores.

But until this happens, arrangers' market share will continue to diminish, making them a poor choice for a cash-strapped music retailer...

Right on, Diki.

I have little use for Klezmer and Orch Wtz or many of the other styles. What I want is a damn drum machine-style arranger that kicks butt. We tried to play a rock song using the arranger last week and it basically sounded like crap. Whay do you think I use SMFs? They have the drums and bass and rhythmn of the song. Nothing on an arranger comes close. I keep the arranger because of all the other features it has. I'm no young stud, but I'm not playing just from the yellow bible either. For me, an MM6 probably is a little too much, but the styles on the G70 are starting to make me scream !!!!!!

I don't think we'll see the "pro modern arranger" anytime soon. The makers always keep a stiff line between the pro synth, and arranger. Yamaha finally is letting a little of the technology leak over into the synth line as the Motif XS has some "arranger like" functions. Hell just the other day Yamaha posted a reply on the Motif forum that some of the patterns on the Motif XS were taken DIRECTLY from the Tyros 2, along with many of the acoustic voices--however those sneaky boys in marketing and design "changed" the names of these instruments carried over to their top synth so they wouldn't have the assocation with their "arranger roots".

I don't think you'll see a modern pro arranger fro several reasons. One it's already a very shady issue on "price justification" for pro arrangers now when compared to pro synths. The price difference of the Motif XS and Tyros 2 is evidence enough for that. There has already been numerous complaints that the MM6 is at least $100 overpriced. So I can only imagine what the makers would charge for a "modern" pro arranger. Personally I don't think they can get away with the high price because obviously (as the numbers will probably show) the (younger crowd) which is where they'll sell the most wouldn't pay $3500-$4000 for a pro arranger when for example a Yamaha Motif XS can be bought for less.

Please elaborate on this statement Roland has some of the best styles available for an arranger to fill many situations...what are you specifically looking for ....also have you tried to use the G70 tools to create your own specific user styles....this is an arranger feature not many player every utilize....the power is there write anything you can play or think up.

Yes I was there last week, and saw them, I have nor been @ Murphys in a long time, I usually go to the GC in Arlingotn because If I want to buy the PSR3000 I can get it for $1250.00, the PSR1500 for $850.00 but the last time I was there they only had the demos.
ANs now that I was ready to buy, my working van brokedown .

If anything other than Yamaha and Roland are hard to find in the U.S., then maybe that's why this forum tends to be weighted towards those brands.

Cassp, I think you hit the nail on the head saying that folks aren't willing (or more likely don't have the time) to do the extra legwork involved in getting the keyboard they really want.

It's difficult to imagine that a major city and music hotbed like Detroit has so little to offer in the way of dealers with a strong selection of arrangers. It's probably fair to assume, then, that other large U.S. cities are in the same boat.

On that question of Arranger vs Synth Workstations (slightly off topic for a second) I happen to be buying a PA1X Pro Elite for 2 reasons:

1. Price - I have a sensational price that is the equivalent of the Mofif XS price (and the Elite has 76 keys DAMMIT!

2. The Pro seems to have the modern sound/features (Sampling looping etc) that I'm looking for.

It IS an older keyboard, but with the latest OS upgrades, and some "style stealing" from the PA-800, I think it IS that half-way house between Arranger and synth workstation.

Um....this is only my humble opinion I know, and YMMV greatly...

DNJ said - "what are you specifically looking for ....also have you tried to use the G70 tools to create your own specific user styles...."

Specifically, the G70 styles have these ghost instruments that make up the style. I say ghost because they are nondescript for the most part unless you add L1,2,3 voices. And they're not all that loud. There doesn't seem to be any knock out rock beats - good, maybe but nothing that can stand up to a midi file. If I play slow-med solo it's not that bad, actually good. But try to use a style with a guitarist, sax and keys and I THINK it falls flat. We practiced 'Old Man Down the Road' with a 70s beat using just drums and bass and I thought it would work fine. On the job it sucked big time (to my ears) and I shut the song down early.

What do I want? I want a XK3, SR16 and PC88 in one keyboard. I can live without the rhythms, but need the drums. The G70 is probably the closest to what I want from what I've seen. I've never seen a Korg Pa1x or PA800, which might have better rhythms - hence the original post.

Have I tried making my own? NO. I can't even find some of the edit screens yet. I'd like to save a default registration too, but I'm not that far into the learning curve yet - I've only read the manual 3-4 times.

Thank goodness I owned a DC5. I think it was a fantastic keyboard. It gave me many of the features of the G70 at a much more affordable price. And now I read about a Roland E600? What is that? It sounds like a DC5 with full arranger functions.

After all this B----ing, I must say I do like my G70. It's not going up for sale anytime soon. I'll learn how to handle it as I should and it will end up being one of my all-time favorite boards. If not, where's the nearest Hammond dealer?

My take on most of the G70 rock styles for live is... get rid of the Rock kits. Makeup Tool them so they use the regular V-Drum Pop kit. All that extra oomph from the ambient rock kits just blurs the sound live (where you actually have a real room to add ambience), and the styles sound more dynamic with the crisper V-Pop1 kit (IMO).

Secondly, take a look at my Tip and Trick at roland-arranger for adding an MFX effect to style tracks (basically, you loop the Direct outs back into the IFX inputs) and add a nice amp to cleaner rhythm guitar parts, rather than using the sampled rock guitars. Quite a bit more dynamic, especially when using the Dynamic Arranger feature to vary their dynamics... They can make a pretty good rhythm guitarist if your guitarist plays lead...

Once you try adding the IFX to whatever style part you want, it opens a world of newer sounds to the style palate..