Ok, soft synths aren't really arranger related, at least not at the present time anyway, but for those of us that compose music, and maybe even for live applications, they are certainly music related.

If you have a good low latency soundcard ( ASIO based such as Audiophile 2496 works well ) and Vst hosting software ( such as Cubase SX, N tracdk, SQ01 ( the soft sequencer bundled with some of the newer high end yamaha boards ) Sonar 3 ?, ( earlier versions require a "vst wrapper", etc, then some of these may be worth looking at. We had discussed in an earlier thread the possibility of a soft arranger. I not only think it's practical, I also think it's inevitable. Somewhere along the line, I believe someone is going to realize that it will be a worthwhile venture and a software arranger will be released. Jammer Live, OMB, Live sdtyler, etc are a step in that direction, but I'm talking a real time arranger, complete with it's own soundset based on both samples ( the way our hardware arranger boards are now ) and analog / physical modeling synths.

For the time being, there are several good and relatively good commercial analog modeling / modular / samplers / workstations emulations out there already.

If anyone is interested, the following website has a comprehensive list and access to many commercial and freeware soft synths: http://www.kvr-vst.com/

The majority of the freeware synths I tested ( I tried many ) ranged from fair to poor in quality, but you can try them and get your feet wet ie .. how to setup and work with vst / dxi softsynths, soundcard latency issues, memory issues.. etc

There were a couple of very good freeware analog modeling synths that I actually kept after I demoed them and would have no problems using. One is called the Super wave P8, and it can be obtained as a free download from: http://home.btconnect.com/christopherg/main.htm They also make and distribute commercial softsynths, but I can tell you that the freeware P8 has sounds that rival my AN150 plug in ( which is very good in it's own right ), and of course my AN150 only has 5 notes of poly ( but I'm getting a second one for the Motif ES to add 5 more notes of poly ).

Another keeper is the RGCaudio Triangle II. It's a mono only synth ( vst and standalone ) but what sounds.. RGC also makes a relatively inexpensive commercial poly synth called the pentagon that sounds very very good as well.

Of course thwere are my other commercial favorites as well, including Arturia's CSV80 and Moog modular V, Native Instruments Pro53 ( Prophet 5 emulator ), and my newest favorite, Novation's V station ( based on the K station and reviewed by users of both to sound exactly like the K station ).

So, if you do want that analog emulation model, or a new sample based soundset, and you already have an arranger or workstation that you like to work with, you don't need to spend 1, 2 or even 3 grand or more on a new arranger or synth. many of these softsynths will easily rival or in some cases even surpass much of the high end hardware that's out there.

I'm glad to have been able to read the experiences of Frank L Rosenthal and some othere here and on other synth forums. I don't think I'll ever be tempted again to buy a new synth or arranger strictly to upgrade a soundset. I'll always want to have a good hardware workstation like the Motif ES and a good arranger for live play, but when considering any new hardware purcahses it will now in large part come down to additional features before I plunk down the big money again.

After I get a modest backup for the PA80 that I can feel comfortable playing on, I'm staying outta the manufacturer's horse race for good until ( and if ) something really revolutionary comes along, rather than upgrading every time a few new features / sounds come out. Admittedly, there are newer and better featured arrangers than my PA80, but not so much beter that I feel compelled to plunk own the nearly 3 grand I'd need for a PA1x or the 2500 plus I'd need to get a Tyros.

I'm not trying to say that those that want and can afford it shouldn't go out and get the latest and greatest, and particularly for the money making pro's, I remember from being in my own business ( of a different kind ) the feeling of wanting to give back to my life's blood by investing in the best and most modern tools .

For some of the rest of us, that may be ok too, ( the constant tempation to upgrade ) but.... if you're like me and are feeling as if you're on the manufacturer's merry go 'round, meaning that they try to market you a new board every year with just a few new sounds / features, there are other alternatives, and hopefully, dedicated soft arrangers will have their place as well.

Best Regards all,

AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 01-10-2004).]

A nice thing about Soft Synths is that there are many free and inexpensive ones available. Brainspawn's Forte Solo is a good free host for testing VSTi's, although you will want to migrate to a non-free multi-timbral Forte eventually. ComputerMusic magazine, FutureMusic magazine, and MusicTech, have all provide soft synths as part of the purchase price of some or all issues of those magazines. Some top softsynth companies like Native Instruments and Virsyn and SampleTank have made free synths available (I guess to attract interest in their commercial products). There is even the Free Synthedit that allows you to design your own softsynths.

Also, there is another plug-in format called Buzz with a free host and many free plug-ins. The Buzz host also hosts VSTi's. So, you can waste a lot of time with very little money.

[This message has been edited by Clif Anderson (edited 01-10-2004).]

You guys said it the way it is!!!

Hi Guys,
I was wondering if there is a site that you could recommend where I could find out the basics ie i haven't got a clue what the difference is between a soft synth and a sound font, what a latency problem is etc etc
you're speaking a whole new foreign language to me.

I actually have cubase 3.7 which I bought back in the late 90's just before I gave up music. Getting into audio back then was prohibitive because of the cost of computers in those days. i haven't bothered upgrading as yet, as my old laptop is a bit slow, and my normal xp pc is mainly used for business,

It looks like I may be getting a new laptop ( for business purposes ( haahaa) so I'd really love to get some insight into some of this stuff. Can't beleive how much things progressed in those 3 to 4 years.

A.J. is the link below the best spot for me to start?

I've got my eye on possibly a dell laptop, so hopefully when I get around to it, maybe you guys could steer me in the right direction, so that I don't buy something that won't work.

Doesn't mean I'l give up my kn (haahaa) but with exciting stuff like Vocaloid coming out, it certainly opens up new frontiers.

best wishes
Rikki


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bluezplayer:
[B]If anyone is interested, the following website has a comprehensive list and access to many commercial and freeware soft synths: http://www.kvr-vst.com/

Rikki,

KVR is one of if not the most comprehensive site for finding all types of softsynths. There are several forums there as well, and I'm sure that almost any question pertaining to softsynths could be answered there. KVR does not have a lot in the way of tutorials though.

The main Synth Zone site has some good links to softsynths as well.

For tutorials and other info, some other links to check out are:
http://www.computermusic.co.uk/tutorial/softsynthseq/softsynthmain.asp
http://studio-central.com/software_synths.html
http://www.mtlc.net/main.php?a=Articles&ViewItem=17
http://www.computermusic.co.uk/main.asp ( very good tutorials on programming different beats in a sequencer as well )

BTW, a laptop with a standard soundcard ( using windows drivers ) won't be the best choice for running softsynths, unless of course you add a better soundcard to it ( there are soundcards for laptops designed specifically for musicians ). Latency would be a big issue here ( a complex issue but most simply defined as the time delay between when the note is struck and when you here ). Most default internal soundcards ( whether from pc's or laptop's ) will have relatvely large latency, so it's always better to go with a card designed for music creation and the proper drivers ( such as ASIO drivers ).

Regards,

AJ

I think that a combination of a dedicated hardware arranger board (like PA80) and a computer running a soft synth is the best of both words. You get a comfortable control surface and best available styles plus the lead voices (or even style voices) may be triggered via the soft synth. I believe that on the PA80 you can set the voices to trigger an external sound source via a progam change and channal selection. So, if your VST host / soft synth combo can accept a program change you should have a seemless transition from a completely hardware arranger to a hybrid with better sounds...

Rikki, softsynths in many ways are similar to hardware synths, e.g., Edirol's Hyper Canvas vs Sound Canvas module, etc. You can edit the sounds and call them up via your sequencer or style player.

If you are going to use a Laptop then you will need to invest in an external soundcard and possibly a firewire hard drive. You would need a fast hard drive for softsynths like Kontakt, Halion, GigaStudio, etc. These samplers stream from the hard drive as you hit the notes on your midi controller keyboard.

There is no doubt that more and more entertainers are using laptops for live performances. An example might be:
http://www.daviddas.com/index2.html

You see Rikki you could abandon your KN!!!

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 01-10-2004).]

Hi Guys,
thank you for all the suggestions. I might have a far bigger learning curve than I expected.

You're probably using your setups in a way that I can't quite envisage yet, though, envisaging a soft synth in a similar fashion to an external synth ( had heaps of those,) makes it a bit clearer.

I've got a fair bit of software ie Jammer 5, BIAB, XG Works, OMB, Acid4 plus a couple of other sequencers etc

What I'm really wanting to do primarily is create backing sequences using the above programs and either record them and save as mp3 ( for use in my kn7) if I find a soft synth that works well enough with primarily XG psr styles. If I need to do a lot of sound editing to make the backing track work, then I'd save as a midifile instead and edit it for my kn.

Is latency a problem for the above scenario or only if I want to record a keyboard performance to computer using the soft synth.

To date I've only used BIAB, XG Works & Jammer for creating styles for my kn, but it's probably about time I started using them properly.

I've got a roland soft synth that was supplied with BIAB, it just sounds so awful on my old laptop. Obviously the culprit is my laptop and not the soft synth.

Looks like I'll be looking for an external sound card next?? meanwhile I'll do some exploring on the site, and see if I can make some sense out of it all.

Thanks again for all the links and your help.

Haa Haa, good try Frank, maybe one day when they build a proper computer based arranger
ie generic laptop, generic keyboard controller, software, and a little black box to connect to your laptop/keyboard that gives all the required buttons to press ie Intro ,variations, fills, stop , start etc I'd hate having to do that from the laptop itself.
They used to build all sorts of little strange midi add ons like faders and editors for the synths so why not an arranger add on.

Dreaming again.

thanks guys
best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank L. Rosenthal:
[You see Rikki you could abandon your KN!!!

AJ
Alot of good solid info....thanks, I too may delve into some soft synths at some point. I'm starting to get a bit bored laying out big $ for just a few new features and many lacking features.
Terry

------------------
jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Rikki, latency is primarily a problem if you are going to play live. If you are just going to produce midi tracks and mp3s from that, latency may not be an issue for you.

The sound quality of the softsynth you used with BIAB is likely the 4 mb version. This would be relatively very low quality when compared to your KN. I do not think the laptop soundcard is the issue. Your built in laptop soundcards only become an issue if you need low latency and very high quality sound. Sound quality that is say better than your KN. Another issue may be using XG voices on a GM/GS wavetable. You could end up with dogs howling while rendering a romantic ballad and your love ones wondering whether you finally lost it - very sad!!!

Rikki, you just have to get used to a different control system. Just sell your KN as a spare to UD and start a new life!!! As you know you can program the lower octave of your keyboard to control the fills, variations, endings and so on. I use the Roland A-37 midi controller keyboard and after 2 or so years I am very used to this approach. You are right, there are some compromises with the control surface but I am certain you would get used to them?

oleg7, you presented a very good alternative to a completely software based arranger system. This can give you many choices in sound enhancements.

Another alternative might be to start with a workstation, e.g., Motif ES and use a laptop with a software based arranger, e.g., OMB or Live - Styler. The control surface may not be as good but it may support some of your other objectives (sounds, quality of keyboard, studio).

There are, of course, the very expensive approaches that may work for some, e.g., OpenLabs, Wersi, etc.

So as can be seen there are as many approaches as there are people. This makes it all very exciting. I have choosen to go the fully software based approach as a matter of principle and to prove that it is viable.

I've pretty much decided to join AJ both in keeping my Pa80 (I like being able to tweak/replace everything, including the factory styles) and get a MoES6 for better acoustic and analog sounds and then fill it up with the full 1 gig of sample ram. If need be, I can start it loading up and then go have breakfast so that when I come back and am ready to start work, it will be all loaded up and ready to go too. I plan to get the VL and 2 AN expansion cards and also get a BC3 to use with it. After that, I too will start to explore softsynths whenever I feel the need to "do more". However, it will take me a while to get the MoES6 under my belt, so the softsynth part is still a ways away. The great workable options in today's music world are truely mind blowing.

Tom

------------------
Bigger is not always better

So Terry,

I see the seed is planted for your transformation to SoftSynth tecnology.....

comon I know you want it !!!

Hi Frank,
I'll have to start studying this stuff sooner than I'd imagined.

Woke up to the news that Panasonic has closed down the music division of their operation. In short no more Technics keyboards.

Be ironic if Uncle Dave had finally found something that suited him .

Anyway it certainly makes the kn7 a keeper. Might even keep my VA7 as it may have been the last of the top end Roland arrangers also. Odd too. that the only psr announced to date has been the psr3000 ( mid priced) not top end arranger.

Strange stuff going on.

Maybe computer based arrangers etc will be with us , sooner than we expected.

Nigel may have to end up calling this forum
Synthzone Computer Arranger Forum instead. (haahaa)
Technology Marches On

best wishes
Rikki


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank L. Rosenthal:
[

OpenLabs is hanging on by a thread. OpenLabs will be at Winter NAMM so it will be interesting to see and "hear" their new NEKO/64. Last years NAMM OpenLabs showcased the 'eKo' but the demonstration didn't include a "real" demonstration of somebody actually playing it. Hopefully they will play the NEKO so people have an idea of what it sounds like and what it can and can't do. Still, it's hard to justify forking over $6,500 (conservative figure) for a Keyboard. It would have to be the cat's meow and the bees knees and then some for people to buy it. How many people can afford $6,500 at the drop of a hat?? Hmmmm?!?!?!?

"Honey, could you go to the grocery store and pick up a few things we need? And btw, don't forget to drop by GC and pick up a NEKO64 will ya'? Cha Ching!! That will be $7,003 after tax. Is there anything else we can get you today? Hmmmm..??

Best regards,
Mike


[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 01-11-2004).]

Rikki, the same things happen in software as well, e.g., LiveSynth Pro disappeared suddenly. So changes can and do happen within the music industry. One can only hope there remains enough of a market, competition and innovation to keep us happy.

Yes, it probably is best to hang onto your KN. On the other hand you could sell it high to Dave and he in turn may have to sell it low. This could then be the start of compassionate capitalism - the first ever.

Hi Mike,
are you serious? Wersi's in trouble too.

A friend of mine imported one into Aust. a year or 2 ago. He'll be devastated. He's not only got a Wersi, but has a kn7 as well.

That's sad.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by keybplayer:
[B] OpenLabs is hanging on by a thread and Wersi just recently filed for Bankruptcy.

My mistake Rikki! It is NOT Wersi that filed for Bankruptcy. It is "Waldorf" that has filed for Bankruptcy. My apologies to the Group. Waldorf makes Synthesizers, uh, I mean, they USE to make Synthesizers. I amended my above post to correct for the error.

Your friend will be glad to hear that I'm sure Rikki.

Best regards,
Mike



[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 01-11-2004).]