Without going into a lot of tecnical lingo, the Tyros is probably the most versatile keyboard out there. Connected to a set of amps or the Yamaha YST MS50 speakers ( I use Velcro to attach the satilites to the Tyros) the Tyros sounds fantastic. The big band styles are especilly the best i've heard from any arranger. It's worth the extra money. Just my two cents. Bob

Five octaves from C to C measures 32 and 1/2 inches on the PSR2100...Same 5 octaves on Roland G1000 measures 33 and 1/2 inches..this is not a senile difference..

Quote: “Yamaha didn’t invent this key size”.
If Yamaha didn’t invent this key size, who did?
Why do they always have to copy from others?

Quote: “Yamaha has remained true to this standard for over 30 years (probably a lot longer). It's not shrinking, and it's not changing”.
Too bad! Being stuck in a rut is a terrible thing.

Now Dave, good thing you did not bet the farm. Maybe my theory about the fingers, and other things getting thicker, still holds some water. I don’t think senility has anything to do with it. You are still very sharp. Let’s look at it. You were younger when you had the 9000 and had no problem with key with. Now that you have put on a year or so in age, among other things, you now have a problem squeezing in your fingers to match the same key with. Better check. Bill’s suggestion of moving over to an Italian made and Japanese designed board might just be the answer. As he pointed out with his opera singers example, every thing seems to be a little bigger over there. Just trying to help.

Grandpa Doug

Thanks Steve for researching this further.

Agreed, Yamaha has produced and sold more Pianos and Keyboards than ANY other Manufacturer. That being said; The reason they have done this is not because you have stuck to a 'standard' Key size of 160mm to the Octave but because your Keyboards and Pianos are a step ahead of the competition IMO in quality of sound and giving the customer a boat load of features at a reasonable price. As you know, the Korg PA 80's individual Key width size is roughly 2mm wider than, let's say, the Tyros's are. In fact that holds true for all of Yamaha's Arranger Keyboards. I have played the PA80 and I can tell you from personal experience that I felt more comfortable playing on the PA80 than on my PSR 2000. First off you don't have to be so concerned and worried about where your fingers are going to land on the Keys. There is more freedom of movement because of the wider keys, and a more relaxed playing style because of it. And like Fran said, even his Roland G1000's Keybed is 1" inch longer overall in length; which again translates to about 2mm's wider per Key. So there are other Japanese Keyboard Manufacturers that ARE providing their customers with these wider Keys, not just Korg. All kidding aside about the Italian 'connection' regarding Korg, let's take Korg as an example. The Korg Triton does have these wider Keys and of course we all know that the Triton/Pro/Studio flies off the shelves. Could it be that one of the reasons many Musicians purchase the Triton over lets say the Motif series is because of the larger Key size? I would tend to believe they do.

The reason I keep coming back to Yamaha is because of their superior acoustic sounds. But I would have bought a Korg Triton in a heartbeat if their acoustic sounds were better or as good as my new Motif ES7 and one of my major deciding factors in doing so would have been the wider Key size that the Triton has. I can live with smaller Keys but I would prefer not to. That's all I'm saying to Yamaha, is that increasing the width size of your Keyboard's Keys would draw an even larger portion of potential customers into your fold IMHO. Besides, 'standards' are made to be broke if in doing so they benefit not only the end user but also improve and increase Yamaha's customer base (in satisfied customers and MORE customers), and an even greater share of the Keyboard and Piano Market.

Best regards,
Mike

Steve is correct. The Motif and PS2000 sitting here go 32.5 inches across the 5 octaves. The PA80 goes 33.5 inches over 5.

I don't seem to have a whole lot of trouble making the adjustment from the PA80 to the Motif and occasionally I stack them and play them simultaneously, but I do notice the difference when I'm playing, even if I'm not always aware of it. I seem to be able to adjust ok. The thing I can never get used to is the key feel of the 2000. It's horrible, and I would venture to say that my two octave, 30 dollar magnus chord organ from the 60's had a better key feel( ok ..that probably translates to 150 -200 dollars today ). I wish Yamaha would use the same keybed on the PSR's as they do on the Motif.. maybe Steve can tell us why they don't, although my uneducated guess is that it strictly has to do with cost.. Still, a 200 dollar casio ( or it's radio shack clone ) has a better key feel.. just not the rest of the goods to go with it.

AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 09-19-2003).]

hi,just to make a point,1 inch,equals 2and a half centimetres,ie 25mm,over 5 octaves that is 5mm per octave,less than 1 mm per key,what seems more of a problem to me is this ,if for example i play C,E,G,Bflat with the left hand the forefinger playing the G note each note either side ie,Fsharp and G sharp they rub the side of the finger,thus giving the impression that the keys are smaller,what are your views on this point mike

Uncle Dave and Grandpa Doug,

Maybe Steve was only comparing the length but not the width. I believe that you guys have issues with the width more than the length.

The width is definatly smaller. It's not senility, it's not shrinking, aged hands, it's a case of Yamaha making the keys smaller than the piano size standard.
The PA80 was bigger.
My acoustic piano is bigger.
The ROland stuff is bigger.
Bigger is better....or, at least more correct !

Hi nardoni2002 "mike". Each Korg PA80 key is just shy of being 1/16 of an inch wider than Yamaha's PSR keyboard keys are. 1/16 inch = almost 2mm. As I stated in my previous post I said 'roughly' 2 millimeters wider than a comparable Yamaha Key. If you want to get technical, then it is actually a little "under" 2mm wider.

As to playing the PSR 2000; yes mike, as you noticed your fingers do 'rub' against the black keys when playing inside the the black/white key area. With the especially bad key feel/action of the PSR 2000 the black keys have a tendency to sometimes depress right along with the white keys that are pressed. This is because IMO 1. The keys are smaller and 2. the key action is very flimsy on the PSR 2000. This in turn can cause clashing of sounds 'clams', ie., dischorded clashing and unwanted notes sounding when the Keyboardist did not intend for them to because, again; - the black keys have a tendency to depress with the white keys that are pressed when playing inside the black/white key area. That is another + (positive) for the Korg PA80, Roland G1000, etc., in that they have less of a tendency to do this because 1. Their Keys are 'wider' and 2. The Key "action/feel" is much better (not as flimsy/spongy, etc.) as the PSR 2000 IMO.

Best regards,
Mike

Quote from Steve Deming: “keyboard is 160mm to the octave”.
sk880user, no maybes about it! When you measure the length of an octave (C to C, you have measured width, not length of the key. In other words, the shorter the distance from C to C the harder it is to cram your fingers into less space. Lets say the width of your hand is four inches and you are trying to get you hand into a hole that is only three and three quarter inches wide. It can be done by scrunching up your hand, but it sure is more comfortable if the hole would be a tad bit wider. In essence that is what Bill was trying to communicate (spiced with a bit of humor) with his thin finger exposé contrasting my thick finger theory. I, for one, would like to thank Dave for putting up with us and his willingness to be part of bringing a little joy and laughter to a sometimes too serious and at times testy group. Dave is a great guy and I think enjoys a splash of the lighter side of life. So sk eight eighty, I believe what it all boils down to is, the people of the whole world are living longer and are quite a bit bigger in stature than they used to be. All six of my kids are bigger than me and all of their kids are bigger than them. Therefore when pride is taken in the fact that as Steve Deming says in this quote: “Yamaha didn't invent this key size, but Yamaha has remained true to this standard for over 30 years (probably a lot longer). It's not shrinking, and it's not changing”. Unquote! It’s not changing? Japan, made a statement at Pearl Harbor that it was not changing but was bent on conforming us to it’s standards. There standards and ways were defeated. I helped in their demise. Would any of the wonderful Japanese people go back to their old systems? I don’t think so. Of course there are always the few who cling to the past and reject progress. Yamaha seems to be wallowing in the latter. Most of the other keyboard makers have wider spaced keys, even technics is thirty three and a quarter inches in a five octave span according to my tape measure. I want to like Yamaha. I have had one of their motorcycles for quite a number of years. Great! I use two of there MS60S monitor speakers with my KN and they do a suburb job for me. I have tried every arranger keyboard they have produced. They do many things. They cost less. They are lighter than most but master of none. I would like to see their arranger boards match the quality of many of their other products. So help me, I would. To be truthful with you guys every time I try one of their arrangers I feel I am playing with somewhat of a toy. The sound is OK, just OK. The styles are OK, rather mundane and not really of the quality that would drive me to greater heights. The keys themselves speaks to me of being for young folks. Kind of like when I bought my first son one of them smaller accordions when he started to take lessons. Got it from Art VanDam when he had his store and studios here in Mt. Prospect, northwest of Chicago. Great for little Doug. Just like mine and Art’s. A little smaller and lighter in all respects, even the sound was a little smaller and lighter in body. I still play it when we go over to his house. Play it because he still has it and that is all there is for me to play. However! It’s OK and fun but for me it is not comfortable to play. The smaller keys make it more difficult for my big fat fingers on the right hand and the smaller and closer buttons on the left hand also make it harder to hit the right ones. Now on the other hand the old man is getting older and weight is becoming a factor. I really do like that feature. I mean, I really do! So what is the end of all this chatter? If I did not have the dough for better, I would buy a Yamaha arranger. If weight was a factor and I was too weak or too lazy I would buy a PSR. If I was prone to compromise and valued the aforementioned I would buy the 2100 or Tyros. If collecting multitudes of, or thousand upon thousands of styles was of importance among all the others, I would buy a PSR. Yamaha would fill my desires and wants in these areas. The fact is, I am not very limited in my finances, I am still very strong, I have good health, I have slightly less than eight hundred styles for my board and only use about ten percent of them to fill all my needs. I love top quality, the best in sound, ease of operation and the like, so I stick with what I got. Even so, I could see myself fondling a PSR except for the key size. Why should I play something that aggravates me when my desire is for pleasure. Harder to play due to key size! Bummer! Even more bummer is their attitude. ‘It’s not shrinking and it’s not changing’! Well, Whoop-de-do!!!!!!! There are others that do and not stay in their dodo!

Snippets for Grandpa Doug’s thought and attitude well. Not always water!!