Ok, how many of you FULLY utilize drum fills when performing? Do you just hop from variation to variation when changing song sections (or worse yet, just stay on a single variation thru the entire tune) or do you trigger a drum fill lead in before each new song section & variation change?

Aside from the rare tune which requires only one simple style with no fills or drum variation changes at all, good drummers mix up the rhythms (variations) and include drum fills that lead into the NEXT section.

This being said, I'm curious just how you guys trigger drum fills and variation changes.

1) Do you utilize a foot controler pedal to trigger changes or manually press the fill button and/or variation buttons by hand?

2) At what point(s) in a song do you routinely trigger fills and/or variation changes?

3) Do you use the mulitpad drum assignments to add additional drum hits (cymbal crash, snare, etc) to even more of a live feeling?

4) On exactly WHAT beat of the last measure preceding the variation change do you try to trigger the fill to begin?

5) Any tricks to share re: drum fill/variation change arranger KB playing techniques?

Here's what I do: For casual performances, I just use my left (and sometimes right hand) to trigger the variation change/auto fill buttons. For songs that utilize reg memory, the fills automatically take place at every song section variation change (reg seq advance).When I utilize the MFC10 multi foot pedal controler, I have more flexibility to trigger fills at will, while my hands are playing the keyboard. Because of this, I can more easily add fills not at only the section changes, but sometimes at 4 bar or even 2 bar intervals in some circustances. There are even some places where I will just hold the fill button (pedal) down continously for a dramatic loop fill which can last 2 to 4 measures. This is especially useful for a dramatic section or buildup in a song. I also like to add a drum hit (crash) occasionally to add more spontaneity, but it gets difficult when you're trying to juggle everything else at the same time. It sure would be great if the Mulitpads could be triggered via foot pedal controler instead of only manually. I've suggested to Yamaha that they implement this in the dedicated foot control assignment or via midi activation via the MFC10. Ok, I'm interested now in hearing how you guys utilize the fills & variation changes in performance. Also, I usually attempt to trigger the drum fill on beat 2 of the previous measure before a variation change, especially when doing this with my hands, because I need to be playing the chord on beat 1. I then depress the damper pedal to hold that chord before reaching for the fill/variation button. Mastering these techniques both manually or by foot is a unique arranger playing specific technique that requires practice. Curious how others of you have mastered this.

Looking forward to getting some discussion going about different people's arranger keyboard 'PLAYING TECHNIQUES' etc. Hopefully we can use this opportunity to share arranger playing secrets as well.

Scott

If I tell you my secrets, I have to kill you.
Softly, of course, with my song.
Seriously, I don't really think about when to add the fills anymore. My hand just goes up there and hits 'em when it's supposed to.
I always use the left hand, never the right, never the feet, or nose (makes the buttons slick).
Maybe that's why I need a new keyboard--I'm too comfortable with the Yammy.
DonM

Don,

hmmm. I guess I'm going to change my mind and keep all MY secrets to MYSELF !

Actually I don't think about how or when I do these things either, at least not until I consiously decided to initiate this topic. Most of us seasoned players do all this subconciously, but I think it's good every once in a while to take a look and analylize what we've been doing all along (in our sleep) . Kinda provides a fresh perspective, and helps some of the newer arranger players out along the way too.

I personally don't think I need a NEW keyboard, but perhaps just a FRESH perspective playing the one I got, afterall 95% of the music should be coming from US, not the arranger. - Scott

Usually I use fills at the end of a verse or a chorus, to introduce the following part of the song, but this is not a strict rule; sometimes, like in Big Band styles, a fill is useful even in the middle of a section (especially the chorus) to recreate the feeling a real Big Band has; other times (like in my rendition of Wave) I didn't use any fills at all, because the style I used (SD1 Soft Bossa) has fills that IMO are way too emphasized for that kind of music (the break fill even uses timbales!); besides, I didn't want to distract the listener from the music flow. To think that for that song I was (friendly) criticized because I left the fills out!
An important issue, to me, is the right timing to trigger a fill and that depends on the keyboard you are using. I have seen that the 9000 pro is quite tolerant, from this point of view, while with the SD1 I have to press the fill button slightly before the end of the bar to trigger the fill in the following bar. The VA7 is yet another story, but I cannot say how many beats before the end of the bar I have to press the fill button: only experience can make make you perfect.

One of the most impressive parts of the tyros demo was when using the BeBop style, variation 4 (32 bars long!) plays several bars then goes into a full drum solo! Quite impressive! It would be nice if yamaha put more of these solo's into the break feature of the styles, as usually the break's are rather short and simple.

Simon


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________________________
Simon G.K. Williams
simon@svpworld.com
Creative Music & Multimedia
http://www.svpworld.com
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Simon,
I heard that style and I agree with you that it's impressive; however, how many times in a song and for how many songs can you use a variation that has a drum solo every four bars?

I agree, so back maybe to the question "how many styles do we need?". Drum solos are rarely used except in big band and jazz, but given we have 4 variations perhaps a few styles could reserve one exclusively for a percussion solo! Or how about a separate style with bass, drums and guitar solos... oh dear I am dreaming again!! :-)

S.


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________________________
Simon G.K. Williams
simon@svpworld.com
Creative Music & Multimedia
http://www.svpworld.com
________________________

In my work, the best I can say is that I put fills or solos were appropriate. Because of the structure of most of my work, ie not necessarilly a traditional structure like AABA or whatever, I may use a fill or solo anywhere.

I use them all very sparingly though as if you listen to my stuff (at least as of late) I am taking more of a minimalist approach to the compositions. Meaning, less is better and what I don't play is as or more important than what I do play.
jam on,
Terry

I'm different than most I guess when it comes to the fills. When I'd perform I'd sequence everything.. I don't like having to move my hands from the keys or the pitchbend wheel.. I do so much extensive work with the pitchbend, (I really wear that thing out too) that it's often impossible for me to hit a fill while using the pitchbend and playing the keys. Notes are often bent during fills and it's really complicated at times trying to use the pitchbend, play the keys, and press the fill button. Alot of my songs start off with a drum fill. I just like having the drums open the music. Scott like you I too would hold the fill in for several measure to get a good break down, but again that was always recorded, and not done in a live situation. Currently I no longer use the drums on my PSR, and all my drum tracks are now done with a drum machine. When I was using the keyboards drums, and when I was in the mood to really get into a song, I didn't record my drum tracks with the style recorder.. I'd stay away from the loop recording because it just took the natural feel away, and was obviously looped. I recorded everything in realtime (even the drum tracks)... Of course this is time consuming but boy you sure do get that natural feel. Keeping good time isn't an issue for me either since I'm also a drummer. No need for the metronome, I just record all my other tracks first, and then lay down the drums manually because that way it's not the other instruments following the drums, but the drums following the instruments (if that makes any sense).. As far as multipads, these I never use. It would be different if they could be recorded into the sequencer, but I can't find any use for them other than playing around with the presets. Although my drum machine utilizes loop recording to get that natural feel all I do is set the "quantize" to HI... Plus with the drum machine a fill can be recorded with the pattern eliminating the need to record separate pattern just for the fill. The problem I had with every Yamaha arranger I've owned is that you couldn't move from one variation to the next without using a fill. That's what I miss on the MZ-2000.. You could program 4 varitions (and record the fill in the variation) and by pressing another variation button in time with the beat you could move to the next variation without having to program a fill in... That's what drove me crazy with the PSR-550. First it only has 2 variations, and to get to variation 2 you must activate the fill first.. It would be nice if you could bypass that by pressing the variation 2 button and having separate fill 1 and fill 2 buttons...

Squeak

I use the fills on a "as needed" basis, and it's intuitive, NOT planned or reasearched. I learned from my teachers long ago, that most of the energy of any emsomble performance needs to come from WITHIN the sections, and not from the drums. The rhythm is generated from the individual parts intreacting as one to create a groove that has "power" and force.
I DO use the fills, but it's more important to use notes to make transitions. A straight ahead, time keeping drummer is all you REALLY need. The real energy and sizzle comes from the arrangement it self, and how the parts all interact ... including the drummer of course.
Point is:
fills are only as neccisary as the placement of notes that create the accents as well.

I have a foot pedal that has 5 pedals, I have one for start&stop, one for the stop sync start for like a Rockin robin tune, one for fill 1 one for fill 2, one for full keyboard on & off. I use them as needed.

There are a bunch more I can assign to the pedas but these I seem to use most.

Do other keyboards have a footpedal with 5 or more pedals for this purpose. I can't handle looking at the keyboard to push these buttons. I hadn't been doing this for 30 years.

Yes, but 'multi pedal units' are typically optional accessories. The 'Yamaha MFC10 multi foot pedal controller' has TEN foot switches (pedals), but it doesn't stop there. It also supports multiple banks so you can have a total of 100 foot switch assignments. Frankly, I just stay with the one bank of 10, that's more than enough for me to handle.

I totaly agree with Daves approach, I only use two Boss pedals, 1-Vocalizer/2-Sustain. All other fills, controls, multipads, etc, are done manualy on the KB when I feel like using them during a song. Makes for a more spontaneous,live sound letting the performer be more creative every time. Less is More IMO!

I'm playing a lot of notes at a time usually - probably 4 in each hand - so you can't hear too much of the rhythm anyway. I tend to stick to one variation (A). The fills on the PSR740 (at least in the styles I use) are two bars long so probably on the last chorus I trigger the C variation two bars before the start of the chorus so I'm back in the regular rhythm as the last chorus starts. Bit old-fashioned I know but then I'm an old square. So I am an almost worse but not quite.

Bryan

Helllloooo Scott,

Like you, I use the MFC10 to trigger fills. During the various sections of a song I typically trigger the break fill on either the second or sometimes on the 3rd beat in the measure. I like to save the larger fill to introduce or end the chorus. I also use the large fill for the last section of most songs. To my ears, it just makes the last section sound climactic. I also like to close a song by pressing the large fill and then quickly hitting the fade button. Fading drums is an interesting sound and my old drummer used to end some of our songs in a similar manner (I always liked it).

I move through a variation with each new section of a song. Sometimes, I'll start with variation A, then move to B and C as the song progresses, then (depending on the song) move to either D or back to A for the ending stanza.

Scott, thanks for sharing your "style" of playing with the forum. I always find your tips and ideas useful and intuitive.

Don't even think about stopping the sharing of your ideas! That's what makes this forum great and keeps everyone coming back. I'm still waiting for your "tips" guide.

Regards,
Steve

[This message has been edited by Stevizard (edited 11-20-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Stevizard (edited 11-20-2002).]

Scott, I've been really trying to think about how I use the fills and how to explain it.
It mostly depends on the song. I use the Break button and the Intro 1 a lot on songs that have real breaks. Examples are Blue Suede Shoes, Tutti-Frutti, Kansas City, Mustand Sally, Boo's Rockin Robin, etc. Sometimes the Rock n Roll style in the 2000 lends itself to certain of these songs and then you can also use the Variation 1 and 2 for some of the breaks. Examples are Your Mamma Don't Dance, Ain't That A Shame, Don't Be Cruel (intro).
On other songs, I almost always autofill to the variations as the song builds to chorus and back. Some fills and variations of course work better on certain songs.
The Yamaha fills are very intuitive and almost always sound as if they fit. It is still a pain to have to manually remember and select which endings to use, but it has now become almost automatic also.
I don't find myself using the fade in and out very much. I can think of a couple of songs only. Fade in on Susie Q, Fade out on Amarillo By Morning. There are surely a couple more, but most of the time I like the song to have a finality to it, especially with dancers.
Lately, mostly out of boredom, I have experimented with some of the Multipad settings to augment or vary the styles. I find myself using Guitar Strum on some of the 4/4 country and blues ballads. For Hank Jr.'s Blues Man, I use the Love Song style, mute the style piano part (bring it in later) and begin with the drums, bass and Guitar Srum multipad on. This changes the style in effect from a piano style to a guitar style.
Just some examples if anyone cares to experiment.
DonM

Hi,

I do not know how that functions at Yamaha but on the PA80 there is a usefull feature (at least for me): you can assign the starting of a fill-in to the velocity on the keys. So if I want a fill, I just play a chord a little harder and the fill goes.

Moreover each fill can lead on any variation. And each type of
sequence can be different in each performance. Thus all depends on the
programming of the performance.

Generally I use the fills between the musical parts (higher variation) and the singing parts and when I change song.

Multi pads : NO, for me they can remove this function

I use them generally on the first beat of the last measure.

I prefer good drum fills than musical ones

STAM

Hey Steve, thanks for the thumbs up. As far as tips go, Joe Water's PSR2000 page is where you'll find most of mine, and many of them are applicable to the 9000 and Tyros as well. Btw, speaking of the Tyros, I'm looking forward to upgrading to it (from the PSR2000) in order to gain increased MFC10 functionality, specifically MFC10 foot pedal control of the Yamaha 'multi-pads', which unfortunaely, the PSR2000 doesn't support.

Everyone: I'm throughly ENJOYING reading about everyones unique approach to arranger keyboard playing and hope we can continue talking about arranger keyboard PLAYING itself, and not just about what keyboard to buy next. Irregardless of what specific arranger kb brand/model you own, arranger kb playing 'technique's pretty much universally apply across the board, so we can all benefit.

Please keep this 'drum fill & variation' topic flowing. Still a LOT of people to hear from.

- Scott

IRregardless? That AIN'T even in the dictionary, are it?

Definition of 'Irregardless', in the dictionary http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=irregardless

I'll admit I wasn't an English Major (flat). But Music? Now THAT's where I'm SHARP.

Holy Crap!!! The PA-80 can trigger fills based on key velocity??? What an awsome feature! Why doesn't Yamaha do this.. That's so cool.. You can keep your hands on the keys.... That's a really good feature.. I'm surprised Yamaha hasn't done this yet..

Squeak

STAM:

I echo Squeak here !

Please tell us MORE about the key velocity activated method of activating fills on the PA80. How do you determine WHICH fill (assuming there are different fill options available) gets played.

Also, how about the fill itself, I've heard some reports about fills not syncing up (coming in) at the right time on the PA80/60. Has this been a problem or not for you?

Scott

Squeak....Korg did it long ago on the i30. Its a good feature. I could also bring in and out ACC parts depending on velocity.

Graham UK

Geez! It just keeps getting better.. Bringing accomp parts in and out too... Is this even listed in the specs or is it just in the manual..? I don't recall seeing it on the specs....

Squeak

Scott, Squeak:

4 functions can be controlled by the velocity: break, fill1,
fill2, start/stop.
The only disadvantage is that the control of velocity is saved in "global mode". The "global" is the place where all the higher functions of the pa80 are saved.
The global setting is superior on all others (styles, performances and sounds(programs)). There is one global for each set.
So, 1 set = 1 global + 3 user styles (16 styles each) + 160 performances + 3 user programs (64 each if I remember + drumkits).

So, for the velocity you have to choose between the 2 fills, the break and the start/stop function.

I usually have assign the fill1. Most of time this is enough for me.
Obviously you can have several sets, each with other global settings

With regard to the quality of fills, personnaly I have no problem whith them even if I admit that sometimes I ask myself which amateur created them. Here it is not a question of the quality of the fills themselves but of their integration in the style. Sometimes the timing is not good. However this concern a minority of styles. Most have good or at least sufficient good fills. And most of time you have absolutely no problem with them.
Break is ridiculous and useless for me.
Some bad fills and break are the two weak points on pa80.

Regards
STAM

I use custom styles most of the time and do all dirty tricks to have the fills I need. I started as a drummer; maybe that's where the obsession comes from. On PA80, I program even intro1 and intro2 as fills. I like it because, then I have two fills that I can jump into at any time of the measure (fill1 and fill2) and two fills (intro1 and intro2) that can be synched with the start of the next measure. If needed I would program end1 and end2 as intro and end. If I need a fill just before a perfect cadence, I would hide the fill in a chord variation and assign it to 7sus4 and try to hide 4th note with right hand playing; doesn't work always, but most of the time. Sometimes I put percussion in the drum track, put the fill in the percussion track, and mute the percussion track. At the right time I unmute it to get the drums-only fill and mute it back. I do not do all the tricks at all the time, but as the need arises.

I know this is really non-standard, but when the fill-ins are very specific and generic fills wouldn't work, these tricks really work for me.

Shiral

Scott:
In creating backing tracks (not live performance), I generally use the pianist mode (to get the bass line right), which prevents easy access to the fill buttons. So----I manually try out the different fills in real time as I bounce to a hard disc recorder. That way I can be more precise and selective about the fills throughout the song.

Brilliant.. I wish I'd have thought of doing that when I converted some of my favorite Yamaha styles to the PA80 Shiral, but I'm glad to read this and glad you thought of it. I actually did do something like that with a few of my styles for the PA80 but it was to add and or change a few parts for extra original variations.. ( actually mixing and / or rerecording some parts of the originals. I just never thought of doing it for fills though. I NEVER use the intros and endings that change keys or chords anyway.. hmmmm good going Shiral...

AJ


[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 11-21-2002).]

So many nice ideas being posted on this Topic. Thank you Scottyee for starting it.

Like most, my approach is basically to use a Fill (and change in variation) to mark a transition to a new section of a song.
On the Ketron X1, however I sometimes introduce a change by activating Intro 1 instead of a Fill. Intros 2 an 3, may not be suitable because they can be too fancy and may sound unrelated to the music theme, if activated in the middle of the song.

Another technique is to use the KeyStop followed by pressing a Fill. On the X1, with the KeyStop on, the rythm stops if the left hand quickly strikes the chord and is released immediately. After the music stops you can just press one of the Fill buttons and then, when you resume action with the left hand the music starts again with the selected Fill.

Finally, my old Technics KN1000 has a button for so called "Dynamic Accompaniment". (When the button is active), the idea is that depending on some key velocity/chord/right hand combination, the instruments introduces a random fill or variation. To be honest, I have not been able to determine exactly what combination triggers the event, but it works and would be nice to have something similar on the X1.