Hi, I have a ketron X1 oriental and I find it the best in the oriental keyboards market. the sounds and styles are the best I have heard. I used to play on a gem wk2 oriental but when the x1 came out the gem wk2 looked like a toy.

The only problem that the x1 oriental have is the high price, not all arabic musicians can buy it.

There is some rumors that eddy (the guy that made the x1 oriental concept) is now preparing a new oriental program much powerful, I don't know what it will be, but better than the oriental program that we have is something interresting. One of the guys that works with eddy said that they are working on a big project that covers all oriental music styles and sounds(WAW).

Does the SD-1 have the oriental possibilities of the x1? I saw the picture you put here but I don't like the color and the absence of speakers.

I think the coming year will bring good stuff to the arranger keyboard market.

Hi Ahmad

Does "all kinds of Oriental" include East Asian? (e.g., Chinese and Japanese).

Also, consider looking at the MIDI-Style-Atlas eGroup. This group is collecting styles for all arrangers and organizing the styles by geographic region and culture. The group has(including hundreds more to be uploaded) lots of Arabic styles, although mostly in Roland format.

My current thinking is that my next arranger might be the Solton SD-1. I will wait until I see what Roland comes up with next. However, if the Solton SD-1 is strong ethnically, that will be my likely choice.

Clif

Hi Cliff, I don't know really if the new oriental program will include chineese and japanese styles. I will try to get more info. The oriental styles on the x1 are using oriental drumsets that we have on a flash card eight megabytes, if the flash card is absent the styles will not work, also the oriental sounds are in the flash card too. when I bought my x1 and that in Lebanon(my country), they told me to keep the flash card in the keyboard as along as I am using the oriental sounds and styles. My friend know one of the guys who helped in the making of the oriental program, he can get for me the new info which are top secret.

Hi Ahmad

Thanks for the info and get us informed. I tried out a Roland E40OR a couple of days ago. It had a sort of an octave's worth of keys on the deck to accommodate Arabic tunings. I noted that the Korg PA80 has a system where you can go into an "Arabic" mode and pick keys for lowering the ptich by one-quarter tone. How does the X1 switch between Arabic tuning modes?

Clif

Clif,
I have also noticed that in the new manual of the PA-80 their is a new Arabic drums kit and sounds too.

P.S clif I will give you the styles and you upload them .

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vic

The X1 have a separate box with thirteen switch, I connect it to the pedal board connector and I can detune any desired notes directly, and on the screen I can see the detuned notes. I also received a call from the shop where I bought my keyboard and they told me that there is a new sotware makes possible to store 13 arabic scales and select them directly in live performance.

I called my friend to get some info but he told me the guys who are developping the new oriental software doesn't like to talk about it in public and he told me that probably the new oriental program will be using up to 16 megabytes of oriental samples.

Thanks Ahmad and Vic

Vic, I look forward to receiving the styles from you for me to upload to the MIDI-Atlas-Styles site. My e-mail is ClifAnd@aol.com.

The 'Atlas eGroup will have to contend with the fact that not all the sounds required for Arabic and other styles are not well represented in General MIDI. I think GM Level 2 includes an Arabic drum kit, maybe also a Gamelan Kit for Indonesian music. I myself have a Roland XV-5080 with a World Card and an Asian Card installed. I have room for a Middle East card if they make it. I note that some sample CDROMs have "ethnic" instrument samples in both Traditional and Western tuning. Which you use depends on whether you want to be authentic or evocative.

Ahmad, I guess it is obvious that Keytron/Solton does not want there top secret project detailed here. However, your "leaks" have sure increased my interest in their products. It seems that everyone but Yamaha has something Oriental to offer. The biggest favor Solton could do for the world music types is to allow import of Akai patches.

Cliff,
Yamaha offerd the PSRA3 a couple of years ago here in the USA. I sold a lot of them, but I was only one of a few dealers who ordered and sold these arabic keyboards. They were low priced and featured sounds, styles, quarter tone tuning, etc. When Yamaha realized that only a handful of dealers could sell these, they stopped bringing them into this country. I urged them to continue, but it was not. If the demand was there, they surely would build another keyboard with oriental features.There are many arabic musicians using Yamaha Keyboards because all models from the 540 and up have the ability to use arabic tunings and they are programing arabic styles in the style creator.

George Kaye

Hi George

Thanks for the correction and apologies to Yamaha.

Clif

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ahmad:
[B]Hi, I have a ketron X1 oriental and I find it the best in the oriental keyboards market. the sounds and styles are the best I have heard. I used to play on a gem wk2 oriental but when the x1 came out the gem wk2 looked like a toy.

The only problem that the x1 oriental have is the high price, not all arabic musicians can buy it.

Hi Ahmad
Did you have to pay for the standard X1 then for the oriental operating system separately as happens here in Europe? Are you able to tell how much did you have to pay for it in Lebanon?. Also, I hear that the scale converter is not professionally designed, is this true?
Nabil Aziz

Ahmed,
may be the project that your friends are working on is like a new expantion board for Roland.

who knows may be It's the new SR-JV80-20

P.S clif did you get my email?

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vic

I’ve had my x1 for few months now, I originally thought that the oriental version is different from the regular x1 but I found out that it’s exactly the same but with couple of minor differences:
- First one is an updated OS witch’s 3.2a that any body can download and install on his own.
- Secondly the guy that programmed the oriental styles and drum kits witch’s eddy kanaan some how modified and made a new plate that holds the pitch and modulation wheels to allow the wheels to go left and right instead of up and down because musicians in the Arabic countries hate the 2 wheels and favor the xy joy stick the reason why korg and Roland products are famous there and not the kurzweil for example.
- Third is the quarter note box that could be purchased for about $60, it has 13 switches on it 12 for the complete scale and one for cancel, by the way it could be used exactly like the 13 switch pedal board.
- Finally the oriental program witch includes a few Arabic sounds that in my opinion are poorly sampled where you can hear the sample loop points but what is really amazingly good are the drum samples and the styles that in my opinion are the best I’ve ever heard.
- Conclusion: the oriental x1 is a regular x1 but if you buy it over seas and more particularly in Lebanon or Dubai the oriental kit will be loaded internally inside the 8 mbsims, but if you buy it here in the us you will need to purchase the oriental kit witch’s a 8 mb flash rom card that has the samples on it plus a set of floppies that has the styles and programs, I personally was able to get a hold of a set of disks that allowed me to load the program internally without the need of a flash rom card, also being a very handy person I was able to replace my modulation and pitch bender wheels with a xy joy stick the one used by Roland EM2000,if any body would be interested here’s a picture at this address: ftp://members.aol.com/eddydy/x1.jpg where you can take a glimpse at my x1 ,sorry if the picture is a little dark.
- By the way any upgrade to the oriental kit will not include any Chinese nor Japanese or any thing beside basically Arabic.
Thanks
Eddy

The Ketron X1 oriental in my opinion and the opinion of all the musicians that I know is the best keyboard for oriental music. the real time functions are very easy to access and the oriental styles are the best styles ever made. The person behind all that is eddy kanaan and a group of very talented persons working with him. I bought the x1 from his shop and they gave me the oriental scale box for free.

My friend Tarek told me some new infos regarding the new oriental program but I am not sure if they are all correct. A guy that works with eddy told Tarek these infos, he said that the new project will have more than fifty oriental styles and the new styles are far better than the acutal ones. There will be new drum sets and a new tabla sound made from about thirty samples (WAW). Also there will be new improved oriental instruments like oud, kanon, nai etc... and the program will be using the whole 16 megabytes sim of the x1.

Thanks Vic, I received the files and uploaded them to the MIDI-Style-Atlas files section, credited to you. Clif

Hello Ahmad
I have the impression that you probably misunderstood me, the x1 is the greatest oriental arranger out there now but not the best synthesizer and that's mainly due to the fact that there is someone out there who is a good programmer but I also believe after reading the reviews and specifications of the new korg pa80 it’s going to beat the x1 by far it will only require someone who is a good style programmer.
I wonder if you got your keyboard in Lebanon why they gave you the flash card, I met couple of friends that bought it from eddy kenaan and the sounds were being loaded internally they didn't need the card, I personally as I stated before don't need the card because I got every thing to load inside the internal 8 mb Sims, in the other hand you mentioned that they're working on a new program that will need 16 mb, I’m assuming that they will need to use all the memory in the x1 what will prevent us from using the sampler because as you probably know 8 mb of the 16 mb memory is dedicated to the sampler, in that case a lot of people would be disappointed and I’m one of them since I rely a lot on my own sampled sounds, so far I sampled about 15 different excellent sounds
To answer naziz's question regarding the quality of the box, it’s a very basic and simple box that will do a perfect job it looks nothing like the GEM SW1 it's so simple I could make one by my self.
Thanks
Eddy

Hi eddy, I have read the specs of the pa80 and I see no way for it to beat the x1 for several reasons:

1. the pa80 doesn't have a sampler so you won't be able to put your favorite samples in it.

2. the pa80 doesn't have the oriental easy access functions that the x1 have.

3. the pa80 will have only fixed oriental drumset and you can't add on it other ones while on the x1 you can always change your oriental sounds and drumsets because it can read sound banks, for instance if you get board from the oriental program you have you can have the new oriental program loaded with
new sounds and drumsets.

4.The pa80 have only 48 user styles while the x1 have 200 user styles and you can uppgrade the memory pattern (very util for oriental music).

5.For the scale tuning on the pa80 you do it by a quarter tone pedal function same as the i30 which is very complicated for live performance while on the x1 you have a 13 button box where you can access the oriental scales directly and you have the 13 arabic sets where you can store 13 oreintal scale and access them in live performance directly by one button push.

Regarding the new oriental program, I am not sure about anything I am only reporting some rumors from people, but as far as I know you can always have the old oriental program in your hard disk plus the new one and if you find the new oriental program is worth to load and loose you samples you do it otherwise you can load your old oriental program.

I have the flash card because I don't need to load the sounds everytime I turn on the keyboard.

It sounds like the X1 is better than the PA80 for "Oriental" sounds. However, I think you might be underestimating the PA80. While the PA-80 does not sample, this is not necessary to expand the available waveforms. All you need is sample playback abiity. The PA80 apparently can store and playback samples from its PC-Card slot without loading. The PC-Card might also be able to store additional styles; in any event, styles can be played directly from a hard disk without loading. Finally, even the factory samples can be replaced (from what I understand of the manual), to make room for 200 custom styles.

Again, I am not sure of these things because I have not tried them. However, this is what I understand from the manual.

Clif

I don't underestimate the pa80 at all but for oriental music the pa80 can't beat the x1 for the simple reason that ketron has written a special oriental operating system for the x1 in which it has put all the functions we where dreaming of (arabic musicians).


The ketron x1 is very simple to operate in live performance and at the same time very powerful. For me I don't buy a high end arranger keyboard if it isn't user friendly and easy to operate. I have checked the va-7, I liked the sounds (not the oriental one of course) but it was very difficult to operate in live performance compared to the x1. Gem keyboards WK oriental series are easy to access in LV(live performance) but its sounds and styles are poor compared to the x1. In the past I was a Gem user but when the x1 came out everything has changed.

Any of you that are making judgements by
"only reading" the manuals are crazy. No one can fully appreciate the value of an instrument until you touch it and play with it. The X1 was not an easy sell for alot of people - only after digging into it can you get the most from it. Let's stop evaluating new products until you actually have some hands on time with the unit. Speculation is just idle gossip, and the manuals are often terrible - not a good way to judge ANYTHING.
C'mon, let's use some common sense when giving advice about these products.Back up your opinions with FACTS, please.

Uncle Dave

I do not know why you are so disrespectful of people who approach synthesizers (and the rest of life) differently than you do. There is a lot of information that you cannot get by demoing a product, that you can get from a manual. For example, you (UD)are not going to know whether a product supports polyphonic aftertouch unless you read the manual.

I look forward to your hand-on reviews of products, but I do not consider them definitive any more than I consider a manual definitive. I try to get information from diverse sources, as many other people do. It seems to me you want information to come from just one source or only from sources very similar to yourself. Maybe you will get what you want, but I think that would be a loss for those that are interested in a range of perspectives.

Clif

Uncle Dave,
I've always considered your Information above
reproch! But sometimes your attitude toward other musicians on this forum is rather grumpy.
I'm sure you're a very fine,skilled keyboard musician! But I'm also sure there are many more great musicians on this form! Can't all of us always get our hands on a lot of different brands of keyboards. So we exchange information we find here on the web
& from Manuals! If you couldn't learn anything from reading they wouldn't have invented the "BOOK"!
I played the guitar and sang country music for 25 years, Not at the level you are playing. But for awhile it was my life!
I started playing the arranger keyboard about
10 years ago. You would probably say I was leading it where I wanted it to go, and you would be right! But I suites my needs. I use
every cheat thats on it that I know about!
Anything that helps me to get the best I can from a song. I would be the very first to tell you I'm not a very keyboard musician.
This is an arranger forum! You no! Where you use Auto styles to enhance your preformance.
"Uncle Dave" I would love to be able to play like you do. But sence I can't I have to do the best I can.
Best Regards,
Nobby

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Hi uncle dave,

I don't make any judjement for any keyboard here, I only say my opinion and the others say their opinions, we live in a democratic world after all and this forum was built to let the musicians exchange informations between them even if these informations were not correct all the time.

regarding the comaprision I made between the pa80 and the x1 oriental was based on facts not only opinions and here is the facts I posted:

1. The pa80 doesn't have a sampler while the x1 have one is a fact.

2. the pa80 use the pedal foot switch for arabic scale tuning while the x1 have an external 13 switch box and 13 arabic set is a fact.

3.the pa80 have 48 user styles instead of the 200 in the x1 is a fact.

4.the pa80 have only fixed oriental drumset and oriental sounds while the x1 can have endless of oriental sounds and drumsets because it can read sound banks, and the sound banks are made by Arabic musicians not by ketron the italian company and that is also a fact.

For me the absence of these specs from the pa80 make it under the x1 by far because for Arabic music live performance (which is strange for you maybe) these specs that I mentioned and the pa80 doesn't have are essential for the success of any keyboard not only the pa80.

in my country we say: its crazy to say to someone "crazy"

Ahmed,
I agree with every thing you said between the PA-80 and the X1 but their is only one thing that a Arabic keyboard player would need and that is the stick for modulation.you see what the X1 have is kinda not comfortable one.therfor people would GO for Korg and Roland becasue of that.if Solton would do something about it.then I will agree that the X1 is best in "fuctions".

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vic

You are all correct. I've been grumpy lately and I apologize. I was trying to get you all to become more excited about PLAYING the new instruments before you sing their praises. I have been a "Manual reader" from day one, and it is a wealth of information that I cannot do without, but to give A/B comparisons about a keyboard that isn't even out yet is just too premature.
I humbly offer my apologies to anyone I offended with my tone - I do not try to condecend. The problem is in the typed word vs. the spoken word. When reading the opinions of others without the "sight factor" or hearing vocal inflections can "color" the interpretation. I will try to choose my words more carefully from now on. For those of you that are under the impression that I am some kind of monster player - that's simply not true. Keyboard was never my main instrument, and I only play it to make a living. If I had my "druthers" I'd rather be playing bass with Tower of Power - but that ain't gonna happen now, is it?
I pride myself on my singing, my repertoire, and my "groove". The arrangements I invent by playing my own bass lines comlement the right hang chords in a way that an arranger cannot. I get a very "tight" rhythm section because we all "kick" together. I'd be willing to bet that many of you can play rings around me in terms of technique, but in a show, with a crowd of people...... Let me at 'em! I've been on stages since 1969, and I feel more at home there than anywhere else in the world. On a personal note - my 12 yr old daughter Katie, danced in her first serious production today. It was "The Nutcracker" and let me tell ya - It's very cool when a clild gets to "see into" the world of a parent. Today, my daughter got to feel the rush of a curtain call, the bonding of the "backstage hands" and the addiction of the applause - all things that Dad (me)thrives on. Life is good, and Katie danced her butt off today. I told her that she was not a 12 yr old today. She was not a girl, or a sister, or a child...... She was a DANCER! A dancer with "canned heat in her heels!" (That's a line from one of the songs in "Center Stage" - a great movie about a ballet company)
Happy Holidays everyone - I'll try to leave the "Grinch" comments at the door from now on, if you all promise to only comment on what you KNOW to be true. There is enough Bull being flung in Florida - we don't need it here too. Happy days to all !
Love,
.....a kinder, gentler Uncle.

[This message has been edited by Uncle Dave (edited 12-09-2000).]

Thanks Uncle Dave, that was "big" of you. I guess I will still hear grinch comments since I like to speculate. However, I will try to remember that this time of year the gigging musicians are working especially hard and deserve a little slack. Clif

vic, now the x1 has one of the best joystick pitch benders like roland and korg and it has the modulation included in it (you press the joystick bender to the up and you will get the modulation like on roland and korg). This pitch bender is made by ketron and is supplied with the x1 oriental. As you see now ketron has two models of x1 one is normal and the other is oriental with the joystick pitch bender.

The oriental x1 is a little bit more expensive than the normal x1.

Ahmed,
I actually know but I actually forgot to mention the Pitch bender it's self.do you know what I mean...a stick just like Roland and Korg. you see I own the E-500OR and what makes it good for live is the stick and that all the sounds you will need is in the banks that are infront of you.their is also the Expansion thing which I hate and the operating system is never stable but it's very easy to deal with and it's sequencer gives me the same level of what the MC-50MK2 was giving me.the best pitch bender that I am dealing with is the one in my Korg TRITONpro.and korg is kinda smarter than Roland in the pitch bender because it's only used on the sounds that need to not just any sound like Roland(the piano for example).

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vic

vic, the x1 oriental have a pitch bender like roland and korg and it's different from one found on the normal x1.

oh sorry I misunderstaning you,I thought you were talking about the modulation only.

that sounds very intersting.if you have a picture could you please send it to me becasue I acually had no Idea about that they changed the pitch bender.I thought it's the X1 and then you upgrade it by six disks and a ROM card for the sounds and drums.

thanx

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vic

Uncle Dave,
"Apologies exepted", I have some bad days too! As far as the " Grinch" part I saw him the other night in a movie! He's really is a handsome cus! By the way I have not seen your picture on this forum yet!
Keep on Makin' Music!
Nobby

PS: Thanks for telling about your daughters dancing. I bet you're proud of her. Won't be long she'll be going out on dates! Both of my girls are grown an left home.

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[This message has been edited by Nobby (edited 12-10-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Nobby (edited 12-11-2000).]

vic, I will try to get you a pic of the x1 new pitch bender, but right now I don't have it.

Probably tomorrow I will be able to post new info regarding the new x1 oriental program. Stay tuned

Hi ahmed:
can you please send me a picture of the x1or.
If you have it, send to me at
samerk81@hotmail.com

Thanks

Samer Kadoura