A perfectly wonderful suggestion, Diki, but I do wish they would make 88 key hammer action digital pianos a lot lighter...25 lbs max.

Then I could take one on a gig with the S900 and do a few solo piano tunes to break it up a little.

But if you had a great feeling 76, you could fool the audience, and maybe even yourself, without the extra (optimistic!) 25 lb +15 lb. for a case and 88.

To be honest, REALLY good piano action is all about mass... Mass in the keys themselves, not the support structure (although that is going to be additional, just to support the weight of the keys!). Lightweight keys feel no better than a plastic action. It has to be the full monty before any 88 makes sense, IMO. And there are NO full wood key 88's at 25 lbs.

Plus, think about it... Let's just assume it DOES exist. 25 lb. for the 88, and 25 lb. for the PSR. That's 50 lb. not counting cases (truth would be closer to 60 lb. before cases). A G70, which DOES have a great 76 action, heavy enough to play piano well, light enough (and rounded key enough!) to play organ well too, doesn't weigh that! Roland's RD700SX, considered one of the best 88 wooden actions is 50 lb. alone!

Add in a two tier stand (heavy duty enough to support an 88 AND a 61) and all of a sudden, 45 lb. doesn't seem so bad, now does it..?

If a compromise is possible (and anyone that plays a PSR keyboard knows ALL about compromise!), a good feeling 76 SAVES you 30-40 lb. over a good feeling 61 and an 88 for piano, and is still good enough for 95% of whatever piano stuff you WOULD play...

Just a thought...

Yes, Diki, but I would only have to carry each keyboard, one at a time....cases aren't heavy as I use gig bags.

76 semi-weighted keys do not "feel" like a piano...I don't mind the light action on the PSR because I don't use the piano sound any more than the other instruments...the velocity sensitivity is very nice and works for me for arranger play.


I would put the piano on a separate stand, to the side, not under the PSR, and it would only be played solo.

That's the problem...there are no weighted hammer action(don't have to be wood) pianos that weigh under 25 lbs.

The G70 has too many arranger deficits for me...plus it is still only 76 semi- weighted...plus I consider it too heavy.

In have a CP-33 coming in a week or so, to play at home and keep my chops up...I'm not going to buy it, but it will do for a few months till I have to return it...then I'll get something else.

I'm sure a light, good feeling digital piano can be made in the near future...no one likes to carry heavy gear...and I'm content to wait for it....doesn't matter what brand it is....as long as it's under 25 lbs.

Ian

Well, Ian, I've played a few of the light weight 88s (M-Audio, Studiologic, etc.) and the code word to watch out for is 'semi-weighted'.

None of these so-called lightweight controllers have anything in the way of an action any closer to a real wooden action as a G70 (or PSR!). OK, they get the SHAPE right, but that's about it... If the actual FEEL of the keyboard is of any importance in an 88, I fear you will have a long wait for anything that FEELS like a piano to get under 25 lb.

Best of luck, though. Let me know if you find anything close at 25 lb. Could use one in the home studio (just got K2500 and Roland 76's at the moment)...

Diki,

The one thing I do have is time...my gigs are all arranger based, and no one expects me to show up with a piano.

I believe a 25 lb. digital stage piano with weighted hammer action keys is not too far away...there are some that are very close already...the Roland RD300SX is 34 lbs. and the discontinued Yamaha P70 is only 28 lbs., so it is entirely possible that we will see one.

The NP30's (11.8 lbs)sales success has proved that a lighter, more portable piano is wanted...now if they could just make an 88 weighted hammer version with an improved piano sound....it should be able to squeeze under the 25 lb mark.

I'm like Gary(Jedi)...I don't mind waiting to get what I want.

Ian

I just believe that the NP-30's so-called success comes from, firstly, no-one has the money for a real piano-like action, and that there are fewer and fewer young players that have been actually taught on a real piano... You don't miss what you never had, eh?

But trust me, playing an NP-30 is no more piano-like than playing a G70 (OK, maybe it's a bit better than a PSR, but that's it ).

There's a couple of things that keep troubling me about your advice, Ian. No disrespect intended, but to suggest that doing an arranger gig DOESN'T involve playing piano is kind of strange. One of the things I like to do the most in arranger mode is set up in Pianostyle mode, and play simply as a pianist, and have the accompaniment follow me like a good rhythm section. For those of us that DO play piano (you seem to be one of them, Ian) this is some of the most fun you can have, playing in a style already honed, and yet the accompaniment still does a great job of grokking the chords and avoiding glitching too much on passing notes and solos (once you learn the 'three notes make a chord' rule).

But a keyboard with enough resistance to help you control the dynamics, and more importantly, enough keys to allow you to play pianistically is vital for this style of arranger use. If you truly enjoy playing piano, and would like a rhythm section to accompany you, it strikes me that a 76 is the best compromise. When such good piano sounds are included in an arranger, and a mode provided specifically for you to play like a pianist, it is odd that Yamaha don't acknowledge that a keyboard big enough to play on in that style might be a commercial success. The PSR9000Pro didn't fail because it had 76 keys. It failed because it was a POS in the OS department. But you didn't see Yamaha stop work on developing a better OS... The 76 was a casualty of war, an innocent bystander in that debacle that took the brunt of the blame.

But the thought that, when you DO sit at an 88, you turn off the arranger and just play solo seems to acknowledge that, because Yamaha don't make a 76, this style is lost to you. Sad, because, for a pianist, it is some of the most natural ways of using an arranger, IMO.

For the most basic user of an arranger, your advice makes a LOT of sense, no point in lugging around a 76 if you can't use it, but I'd just like to point out, for the more advanced player, that a 61 makes you either 1.) carry around an extra 88 keyboard, plus stands wiring, pedals, etc, or 2.) have to make serious compromises in what you can play, technique-wise, on an arranger that OS-wise allows you to do the things the size of the keyboard actively works AGAINST.

For the more advanced player, the pianist transplantee, or just the intermediate player looking to grow into a pianist, a 76 (it don't HAVE to be a G70, plenty of choice except Yamaha!) is a FAR better choice than a 61 AND an 88 if you are on a budget, and want to limit how much gear you have to cart.

Sure you COULD use a 61 for everything (we all could if we are FORCED to), but when the choice is available, a 76 can help expand the choices you have, musically. And that is what it OUGHT to be all about, eh, Ian?

'Fess up.... if Yamaha made a PSR S900-76 at under 30 lb. (maybe use the NP-30 action for light weight), would you use one instead of lugging an S900-61 AND an 88 (and extra stands, pedals, wiring, etc.) around? I am fairly certain, from reading the many, many pleas for it, that quite a large percentage (enough for it to be commercial) of current PSR players would opt for it.

For anyone wanting to grow beyond the limitations of a 61, it seems, to all but Yamaha, the obvious choice...

We all approach arranger playing differently, Diki...to each his own...your way is not my way...and that's okay...I'm quite content with how I work...."piano" is just another color when I play arranger.

If 76 semi-weighted keys allow you to keep your piano chops, then that's cool, buddy.

They just don't cut it for me...not at all...they feel awful...the action on the G70 is nice, but it isn't anywhere near the feel of a weighted hammer action.

Carrying the extra keyboard, if it was a real weighted piano action(and around 25 lbs), would not be a chore...it would be a pleasure.

An extra stand? Pedal? Cables? Not much fuss there...wouldn't even need a mixer as the S900 has aux ins.

Maybe an extra 5 minutes setting up...no problem...I'm never in a hurry.

There is no substitute for the real deal....you play piano...you should know.

I'll wait...I don't mind.

Ian

I am waiting too. If Yamaha made an 88 note arranger with the keybed that is on the CVP-309/310 it would be the perfect compromise for Piano playing and for other instrument voice playing as well. What would not be adequate in my opinion is an 88 note fully weighted arranger keyboard that is simply too heavy of an action to play anything other than Piano parts with. But I would nevertheless prefer an 88 note Arranger over a 76 key one if they could make one at an acceptable weight and have an optimum weighted keybed. Ian says 25 lbs would be ideal as an overall weight, but I will fudge a little and say 35-38 lbs would be sufficient for me. In other words, keep it under 40 lbs with all the bells and whistles with top of the line status and features and I believe they would sell like hot cakes. There are simply too many pianists out there who would not settle for a weighted 76 key arranger no matter how good it sounded. I on the other hand could get by with 76 keys but when push comes to shove I would really rather have it in 88 keys. Fully weighted of course. I think the jest of all of this is that an awful lot people want more than 61 keys and one that also has a great action keybed. 76 keys is a good compromise and saves on the weight factored in by way of smaller overall dimensions and design of the 76 key vs. an 88 key. But if manufacturers could acheive the lesser weight that a 76 key arranger brings to the table and realize it in an 88 key version I feel the 88 key version would far out sell the 76 key version no matter how you slice it. Why I think we are yearning so much for Yamaha and other manufacturers to give us 76 keys is because we are trying to nudge them to the next step up from the measley 61 keys currently jammed down our throats in the arranger arena and specifically by Yamaha Corp., and that 88 keys would simply be out of the question in our minds because of weight considerations. But Ian made a good point about the Yamaha P70. It really can be done and it is simply a matter of time before it does happen regarding Arrangers. But when it does happen the 88 key version will far out sell any comparable 76 key verson in my opinion. All things considered that is. Including weight of course.

Maybe Yamaha will fool us all by releasing an 88 key TOTL fully weighted keybed Arranger, simply bypassing the 76 key venue as a calculated business decision; realizing themselves that 88 keys is really where the pot of gold lies not 76 keys. If they can keep the weight down (Yamaha or any of the other manufacturers), then they will no doubt truly have a winner on their hands, whoever it is that decides to venture out and accomplish such a feat, and do it at a reasonable price point for the consumer.

Best,
Mike

Mike, I have to respectfully disagree with you that a 88 key, weighted, TOTL arranger, if made available, would be the top seller. Of course, in both our cases, this is only OUR opinion.

Although Diki bases his opinions on his own preferences, experiences, uses, and playing style, he is still probably correct in most of his assertions. But Ian also has some valid points. True, 76 semi-weighted keys is certainly a compromise between 61 unweighted and 88 weighted, but it seems to be generally regarded as the most acceptable compromise for those who choose to work with a single keyboard. Studio, permanent installations, and home situations should not even factor into this discussion. We're talking working pro only, here; one without the benefit of roadies or huge stages.

I play piano; not "world class", but well enough to play solo piano gigs or as pianist in a jazz group, but over the years, I have primarily played organ and synths, to the point where my finger strength has been seriously diminished. At this stage, a semi-weighted keybed feels more comfortable to me, even playing piano on it, especially with fast runs. I instantly change my playing style as soon as I sit down at an acoustic piano. I know that it's to accomodate the heavier keyfeel.

I actually like the action on my Tyros 2 although I seldom ever play it, and remember fondly the action on my old DX7. The PA1X Pro's action is slightly heavier (than the T2's) but I've become accustomed to it since I play it far more frequently.

I doubt if we'll see a 88key, fully-weighted, arranger in the near future because I doubt there will ever be a huge demand, but again, this is only my opinion. I disagree that 61 keys is "probably" enough for arranger-only work. Even in arranger mode, I need the extra range of a 76'er for RH jazz piano solos. JMO. BTW, nobody is wrong, here. Different strokes for different folks.

chas

Certainly, our different needs and preferences make this thread interesting, for sure.

I would want 88 weighted keys ONLY for Piano (and E.Piano) voices...for any other voices, that type of action would actually be a detriment for me.

I want....no, I NEED a light, quick action for all other sounds...especially organ...I disliked the semi-weighted Tyros2 and, that's why I passed on it and bought the S900...it feels just perfect for ME.

I realize I won't get both on one instrument...so I'll need two...and consequently, for gigging purposes, they must be as light as possible...I am not lugging heavy gear anymore...25 lb is MY limit.

The bottom line is, I only have to please ME with what I use...61 light keys for arranger, and 88 weighted hammer action for piano. I own one already(the S900) under 25 lbs...and...I think Yamaha, or some other company, could easily make a great sounding, under 25 lb digital piano with 88 proper weighted hammer action...as I said in an earlier post, they nearly nailed it with the Yamaha P70 at 28 lbs...but I didn't fancy the piano sound at all.

For me, having a lightweight 88 note digital piano is far more important than an arranger with more than 5 octaves.

Yamaha made an attempt at an 88 note portable(?)arranger/digital piano with the PF-1000 in 2002, and earlier with the PDP-400,but they were far too heavy (approximately 70 lbs)for most people to move around...neither sold very well.

It would be a tad easier if I could compromise and use 76 semi-weighted keys, and therefore, be able to use one keyboard for arranger and solo piano, but I can't...so I have to use two...but, I can accept that...it's not a problem for me.

I agree with Chas...nobody is wrong here...we all use what works best for our OWN needs...we all have different backgrounds and playing skills, so why wouldn't our instrument requirements be just as diverse?

Ian