And that is a good thing

I just don't get it... Here you all are, bemoaning these new ideas as being for the pro user, NOT the home user, and by and large, I see most of them be about MUSIC, not money. Swing knobs, 1/2 time buttons, more flexible slider usage, muting options... Just exactly WHAT makes these 'pro' features?

You'll be telling us that Break/Mute buttons are 'pro' features next. PLEASE...

From what I have heard posted on this forum there are quite a few 'home' players that can run circles around some of our 'working' members here. Surely some of these features would be happily used by 'home' users (and some of them obviously unappreciated or misunderstood by so-called 'pros' who should realize how MUSICAL they are!) who right now seem to comprehend MIDI to Style features and Multi-Pads, definitely some of the more complicated features already present in current, so-called 'home' arrangers.

What a put-down! I guess Donny and abacus (who should know better, seeing as he has the most technologically advanced 'home' organ on the planet!) seem to feel that anything more advanced than a Tap Tempo button is wasted on those poor home doofuses who don't know nuthin'! RUBBISH...! Plain and simple.

You take a look at the OS for the PSR3000, there are probably large sections of the OS that even Donny (the consummate pro ) probably never used. Now, does that make him a home doofus, or does that make the PSR a 'pro' instrument? You tell me!

The only real 'pro' feature I see on many of these arrangers is the mp3 playback feature. I imagine that most home users that buy an arranger want to enjoy the hobby of actually PLAYING the arranger, and primarily only pros want to laboriously make a whole bunch of mp3's so they can mime over the top. You don't impress your relatives much by miming, just club and restaurant owners! At home, these arrangers are toys to PLAY with, not painstakingly prepare mp3 backing tracks so you can pretend to play with them (they've got Guitar Hero 3 for that!).

So, let's stop short-changing the 'home' user, shall we? If indeed only 2% of you are pros, every single feature on most arrangers was developed specifically for 'home' users, it stands to reason. You 'pros' should start thanking them immediately. All the wonderful features of the PA800, G70, and T2 were apparently developed specifically for THEM...! They apparently have some very advanced skills to understand this stuff!

OK, Donny, I realize that none of these new ideas might make you any more money than before. Truth is, probably getting a PA800 hasn't done that either. You may have to resort to getting a better 'chicken hat' for THAT to happen...

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 01-10-2008).]

Diki, when I guesstimated 2%, I should have said of the AMERICAN MARKET. I think the market share between 'home users' and 'working musicians' ('Pro' has a different meaning for me as I don't consider every working musician a pro) is very different in European, Asian, and Mid-Eastern markets. I believe this is important and partly explains why these markets seem to affect or influence design more than American users. I would love to know what percentage of the Arranger market we (Americans) make up. I'm guessing less than 20%, given the seeming popularity of these type instruments in Europe and Asia.

So maybe instead of looking at the division between 'home user' and 'pro', we should be looking at 'America' and 'OTHER' when trying to determine who influences Arranger keyboard design and features. Just a thought.

chas

PS: We (American musicians) DO buy a lot of synths/workstations and they DO listen to us a little more in those areas. Something to think about.

At a guess I would suggest the percentage in Australia is less than 1% of working muso's (that use arranger functions in performances).
Pub crowds out here tend to want their songs pretty much the same as the original which is why a lot use midi files instead of their own take on the song using the arranger..
Believe me I would rather play my own version of the tunes I play rather than the same old smf,(which is the main reason I spend so much time re-working them constantly...it would be quicker and easier to use the arrange functions!!).
But venue owners listen to the $'s in the door and if a performer doesn't play it the way the patrons want they are not re-hired.

Sorry that was a bit OT...Back OT, I think any new features are equally adaptive to either the home-user or the pro-user, and anything that gives more variety or ease of operation would be welcomed by both.
It would be interesting to know how many "home-users" are actually retired pro-payers?
D

[This message has been edited by miden (edited 01-10-2008).]

So chas, does this mean that they don't have 'swing' or half-time musics in Europe or Asia (remember, these Euro-centric arrangers USED to have 'swing %' features in the past)?

Or are you trying to say that we should just start using the word 'pro' for someone that CAN play (well!), and 'home player' for those that don't, so well? Sorry, but that just doesn't cut it for me.

'Pro' means what we all know it means. You get paid for your performances, and make the majority of your income from playing music. 'Semi-pro', well, you get the picture! You want a different word, less ambiguous? Try 'skilled' and 'unskilled'. Probably more appropriate to what you are trying to say, perhaps...

But half time buttons, swing knobs, etc. have got NOTHING to do with being pro or not. They are MUSICAL modifiers, that anyone, at ANY skill level, can use any time. But they are not on our current arrangers. Whereas mp3 players abound. I would just like to see a return to MUSICAL 'features' and innovation, and let's put the 'karaoke machine' aspects on the back burner. I don't want a DAW, I don't want a karaoke machine, I don't want a multimedia center....

I WANT AN ARRANGER...!

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 01-10-2008).]

This post was also edited by chas (parenthesis).

Here's the thing, Diki. ARRANGER means different things to different people. Although I agree with you about the emphasis on 'karaoke-type' features, I realize that that's just me and if other people find it useful, then why not? Doesn't hurt anything except perhaps my status amoung other non-arranger musicians (and that's not a problem as long as they know you can play if you have to ).

As far as your re-interpreting my post, I thought it was clear enough, as is. No, I don't think every guy out there on the corner with a tin cup and a guitar (with case as tip box.....talk about optimism) is a 'pro'. 'Pro' to me implies a certain skill level or at least the expectation of said skill level. Another quality of a 'pro' is realizing that opinions other than your own may also be valid (for somebody).

Hey, how's the weather down there. My buddy has a vacation home there (in Destin) and we were thinking of flying down in his Bonanza.

chas

My "home user" clients aren't interested in MP3 players on their instruments.

Not ONE of them even asked about it...not ONE!

The same goes for playing over SMF...it's a topic that seldom, if ever, comes up.

In my experience, the people most interested in these karaoke features are the "pros".

My "home user" clients want to actually "play" their instruments...either alone or with some friends.

Strange, eh?

Just not quite sure from your posts where you stand, chas. I don't care much for the semantics of pro vs. home user... I think that the 'skilled' player can probably use many of these ideas, and the 'unskilled' will probably ignore them (like they do 90% of what's in current arrangers).

But I don't think their usefulness or not has anything to do with whether one is a 'pro' (gigging regularly) or a 'home' player. It is more about whether you push yourself to improve your playing, and understanding of how the arranger can help you achieve that musical goal.

I think this thread got off track somehow with the suggestion that these ideas (what the thread was SUPPOSED to be about) were unlikely to be implemented because a) they are somehow 'pro' features (and I STILL don't understand that logic), and b) the manufacturers (at least according to Donny) are bloodsucking leeches that somehow haven't got our desires as ANY kind of priority, despite magically coming out with some amazingly useful stuff just recently. And I disagree with BOTH those viewpoints.

Admittedly, with Roland in particular, I often get the '2 steps forward, 1 step back' impression, vis a vis the ease of operation and musical focus, so I just wanted to start a thread where we could discuss improvements of a musical nature (or not, I just wanted NEW ideas!) that haven't yet appeared (or long since disappeared) in our current arrangers. No big wup...

But if the opinion is that features that favor the 'skilled' player are not likely because the arranger is somehow designed for the 'unskilled' or 'home' player (other member words, not mine!), I would simply point to just how many already VERY complex features they already have, and say 'balderdash!'.

BTW, chas, 70ºF today, a cooling trend, but still warm by the weekend. If you come down, email me (my profile is on view) and I would be honored to meet you and show you around. Although it's out of season, there are still a few good players gigging that might be worth seeing (but little good jazz, sadly). Don't worry about my forum attitude, I don't REALLY bite...

PS Ian.... I completely agree. MP3 players are the ONLY 'pro' feature on arrangers.

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 01-10-2008).]

Diki, that's very kind of you and frankly, I expected nothing less. Unfortunately, it's probably not going to happen; mainly because I don't trust this guy's piloting skills. I think he really only invited me along as insurance because he knows I'm a high hour instrument pilot. Truth is, I'm neither current nor familiar with his Bonanza. On the flip side, if you're ever in the Atlanta area, I INSIST that you stop by and check out some of my gar-barrrge first hand.

chas

Thanks, chas... If I make it to the ATL, I will let you know for sure! Bound to be a ton of good music (of ALL kinds, not just jazz!) up there. But 'round here, if I get out of town for a road trip, I primarily head to New Orleans, home of some of my favorite musics (I love trad jazz, zydeco, cajun country and a good second line!) and foods!

But if you ever find yourself coming my way, drop me a line, and I'll do the same if I head north...