It's time...........for the E-60 ten day report card...

Overall..I am going to give it an A minus..[have to leave room for improvement.. ]

my biggest surprise..was the new drum kits..as another E user mentioned..they are excellent.

Compared to the G70 V-drum kits..they changed some tones and release on cymbals...
but the overall edge still goes to the G70 because of the dynamics with velocity of key touch..
The E-60 does not have the same wide variance with velocity on the "new" kits..but boy..they sound good...

The other surprise for me, is how well the key feel is..no weights under the keys, but substantial resistance...
in fact the keys feel better than the other brand 28-30 pound keyboards[no names]..

One of the reasons I think the G70 style keys[G1000/VA-76] are the best...
Roland has smoothed all the key edges, and a slight crown to the white keys...
What this does..it is impossible to hang up on any key..you can play the keys to mimic the instrument sound you desire..

It could be straight up piano, or play organ in the same fashion as a B3..
yet you have the right feel for guitar , sax or any other instrument , expression wise...

The E-60 is not as flexible with the key bed...neither is any other key bed on the market..

If one was to play on the better G series keys with an open mind..
I have no question they would find all this to be true..

Last weekend, I played a couple sequences at my shore gig...
using the new drum kits on the E-60..My lead singer, although technology challenged..remarked how great the drums sound..
He has been use to the G1000 drums[since I recorded all the band tracks as MP3's].

I had to laugh when he asked if I could sync the new drums with the MP3's...
I guess that means it is time for me to re-record our band material....before someone talks me into selling my E-60[Cass}..

Some of my old music buddies are sure getting old...Uncle Dave called me last night to help him move a piano..
.so I told him I would bring the E-60 so he could check it out...

So I packed it up in the 15 degree weather, and drove 10 minutes to Dave's house....
Dave lifted it up and placed it on his 1950 ish dinner table..I could see he was surprised how light [28 pounds] the board was to handle....
same weight as his PA800 [61 keys]..

Dave has lost his inquisitive desire that we use to have..experimenting and comparing keyboards ..
no matter what brand..after he played a few minutes ..I asked him to get his PA800 out of his van so we could A, B them through the Korg speakers....
He said ..naaa, it was to cold to get the PA800 out of his van[30 feet away]..What's this all about....
I had no problem hauling the E-60 to his house....Could it be , he really didn't want to know if there were any differences,
that maybe the E-60 would have a great advantage..

Well I guess the only way I can A, B the two is to buy a PA800 myself....
Anyone interested in a week old PA800[it will be available, the 3 times I played one, I know I do not want to use one...]
but I would like to make the comparison..with instrument sounds including drums..also the styles..
No need to compare the operating system, cover and make up tools or the GM, GS playback of sequences....the Roland is a given...

Every day that goes by...it is harder for me too justify selling this board.....
it is totally compatible in operation with my G70 [no new learning curve],
and I keep finding some things like the "new drum kits"..that I can't part with it...

It makes a perfect keyboard for my band work....I like it , my band members like it..........
.and I bet deep inside Dave likes it...even though he suffers from the Paul Kasper syndrome...pushes all the wrong buttons...

Yep, Dave sure got old..we use to spend hours getting into keyboards to push them to their limits,
and find out what they were about....no more..Dave usually spends two minutes on a board now...Last night about 20 minutes..
.He said the speakers were under powered, ...
some sounds rattled his spoons, sugar jar and salt and pepper shakers sitting on the keyboard stand[dinner table]....
and that the Frugal horn was the best sound he heard on the E-60 [I heard him try maybe 6 sounds]

So that is my 10 day report with an off road conversation to boot....A minus..

... And where was the van ... outside in 15 degree weather with the kb IN it ?!?!?

t.

15 degree weather won't hurt anything as long as you are careful handling the plastic case and give the electronics a few minutes to acclimate to the indoor temp and humidity. Cold electronics will crackle, but that's about it.

And BTW Fran, if you think this big build up of the E-60 is going to make me jealous, you're absolutely right. I'm waiting to hear from an interested party regarding the 3K. But if I sell, I'll be without an arranger because you obvioulsy are becoming very attached to that E-60.

Cassp,

Have to tried locating an E-60 in Canada?

Music Stop carries them...there might be one in the Bedford location (Music Stop Bedford)...talk to Kevin Durning.

He may know of another location that has one.

Here is the link.
http://www.musicstop.com/content/view/39/48/

Ian

Fran mentions the achilles heel in using the mp3 as a substitute for an SMF (or simply using the arranger)...

It is a LOT of work to completely redo your entire backup library when you buy a better keyboard if you have to firstly rework the sequences to sound their best on the new keyboard, THEN laboriously (and in realtime!) record all of them to mp3 a second (or third or fourth!) time.

Many (probably, from reading here, I'd say most) don't bother, and end up, after paying a fortune for a new TOTL arranger, with a show that sounds 80% or more IDENTICAL to what it was before the new equipment. Hardly effective use of the new toy, IMO.

In fact, Fran, if the majority of your sequences are still G1000, you miss out on what is, IMO, the BEST feature in the G70, those amazing drums! Plus, of course, you have to deal with poor audio and 'glitchy' sound if you decide, maybe for a different singer, to perform the mp3 in a different key, or God forbid!, a slower tempo.

This is why I think I am committed, at least for now, in keeping my sequences as SMF's and avoiding the whole mp3 thing. Unless you actually add in REAL players (it's amazing how many mp3 users forget about, instead of having typical crappy guitar arranger parts, they could simply hire a guitarist to PLAY them), what exactly do you gain in going to mp3? 128 poly keyboards make voice-stealing moot, and the flexibility you gain in transpose and tempo changes, along with the gain in overall quality you get changing to a newer, better arranger make committing yourself to audio a dangerous path towards stagnation...

BTW, completely agree with you about the SHAPE of the G70 keys. Without a doubt, the best key-bed on the planet at both piano AND organ techniques. It is amazing no-one else has figured this one out (even Roland, on ALL their other keyboards!). You can't play organ parts well on a piano shaped key, you can't play piano well on an organ shaped key. Compromise is necessary..

We could ALL learn from this

Excellent post, Diki. I agree that it is better to keep song files as SMFs. They are easier to store, edit, read and use. I noticed a marked difference in the quality of my SMFs when I used the G70, although the 3K is also better than the SC88 I have used previously. The G70 drums were exceptional and I'm wondering if you can import the E-80 'live' drumset. Once Fran figures out he's got almost two identical keyboards, he'll be selling that E-60 to me - It'd make a nice Easter present, Fran.

Absoluletly true This is why I play ONLY arranger style. IMO, it is more fun, challenging and allows one to create an identify.

zuki

Well Fran as someone who has played the E60 for several months longer than you and has sung praises for much of what it offers I am shocked to have to conclude you have gone way overboard in its praise.Glory be.

yes i love the 76 keys and portability and the speakers and the keyfeel and many of the sounds and the bass/drums of the styles (i never use full styles--i don't think that's the way to make a real individual musical statement and i find ALL full styles stifling--but that's a whole 'nother thread)

The E60 has an inaccurate tap tempo button
even after the os fix, they fixed some of the instability but not the inaccuracy. and it's
not me..i find korg/technics are fine w/tap.
the d-beam has only one button for controls, so 3 totally wasted on crapola, the shortcut
buttons are a waste to me, the one-touch are a waste to me, the fade-out is too abrupt, the tempo controls buttons are far inferior to the circular control others have,there is no way to have a multipedal even as an option, the sustain is not programmable for another use, so there is only one foot control--if i use the expression pedal i have no other foot control-- and only one useful d-beam and a very limited V-link control and the d-beam and v-link are inconveniently located. and not even a basic mic input. i don't think a $1595 unit should be so lacking. most of the $995 units offer a lot more in that way.

Still and all, I have recorded my CD on E60
and will post samples soon, but i would
strongly consider the pa2x if i liked it on trial, but i'm afraid 39 lbs is still more than i care to move around and set up. Of course if i looove it i may bite bullet. it may be 7 lbs lighter than G70 but 11 lbs more than E60. Maybe I'll try the pa500 too--hate to give up the 76keys but I need better on-the-fly controls, dammit. (s900 not for
me however)


bu thanks Fran for your excellent detailed
reports..i concur with your praise.. but you
are leaving out the shortcomings, which are more than just not quite as wonderful a keybed as the G70 or some sounds not quite as
good as G70..they are very limiting even to a
person like me who is a bare-bones arranger player (no full styles, no smf, no mp3, no sequencing)

------------------
Miami Mo

E60 is a great choice for 76 keys. and for light 76-er, the only.
for 61 keys and not so demanding keyfeel, there's more options.
the new pa500 seems to be a very appealing alternative, IMO because it offers indeed a better on-fly control.
probably the only serious shortcoming for E60 is the fact you can not get very "wild" while playing, because the whole concept is to use UPGs rather than on-fly controls.
...which for my type of using arrangers is not best suited.
there's not enough buttons on E60 front panel. the ones that are there, are not designed for their best.
of course one could use midi pedal for extra control, but come on! it only takes three buttons to have the orchestrator right there! and is the same with some basic functions that korg and yamaha got it right, with dedicated buttons (left hold, chord/acc memory, fillins, pads, etc)
so, if i was to drop E60, it would be for the lack of some basic functions, and maybe for some of it's sounds. very few that i dont really like.
but right now it's not the case.
probably i'll skip this generation of "cheap" arrangers, and maybe next one will bring everything that's missing right now.

fran, good report!

Of course there are some short comings as there are on all keyboards..Even the G70..

Mo, as you admit you do not use all the features on the E-60..so I can see why you do not care for one touch settings, D-beam etc..

I like the one touch settings when I need to have a quick set up for a particular style/song..

Personally, I use a handful of User programs as keyboard set ups..while changing styles on the fly...same with changing tone...so I don't see a get around problem while performing..I save user programs for just left hand bass/drums and my right hand sounds..with all the proper pedal assignments and insert effects for the proper right hand sounds..This is my power up setting..I also write one with full piano and arranger mode, and another for my regular arranger play..all with correct splits, effects and pedals...

I also find the Music assistant useful for request or just when I am trying to get ideas for the next tune...

I also like /use the D-beam...I use the different sound effects without disturbing my keyboard setting[what I physically am playing]...Especially when I have a funny guess singer sit in ..I will use these effects to give the folks a chuckle..Also for songs like "Love train" I will use the train horn...You mentioned no pads..true[I don't care for them myself]...but the D-beam can do some of this also..I will use chimes, a Scat that follows your chording and other arpeggios etc...all available with the D-beam.

There are a couple button assignments I would have preferred also...one ..a dedicated transpose button like the G70...always available and functional with a single button push...NO sub menu..

Mo, when you use the Roland tap tempos, you are aware you need 4 taps...I see know problems with accuracy on my E-60..

Also your data wheel controls the tempo too, not just your slow/fast buttons...
It also defaults to tempo when not in any edit window..

Overall, I think the E-60 is as Roland use to say a "Superb" board for the money..

Mo, you can't compare the PA2x with the E-60..nearly 3 times the money...and guess what...The piano and Scat are still better on the E....

Fran,
one should be able to do the following with easy access dedicated controls: fade in/out,
bass on/off, drums on/off, acc on/off. E60
gives us a choice of ONE on the D-beam at hand, makes you go into menu to switch to another. ridiculous. You can access the fade thru the V-Link button but there again you only have that ONE choice (not that anything else in that button is great shakes)

No kb is perfect, nobody is talking perfection here. Just utility. I am a heavy user of the tap tempo button, more than all of u because u set up pre-tempoed registrations and i never do. ever. And i have long experience w/Korg/Technics which have ACCURATE taps that work on 2-3 taps!!.part of the problem is they require 4 w/Roland. The tempo comes out exactly only by chance, most of the time it is not QUITE right where u want it..close, no cigar.

------------------
Miami Mo

Sigh.....
I have a three day weekend seminar at school tomorrow, so I don't have time to REstir the pot that my good old ( older than I ) pal, Fran has dipped his G70 spoon into !
I admit it....I have lost much of my desire to waste countless hours comparing keyboards. I have no interest in the latest REpackaging of the same old thing that's in my car right now. ( yes, in the freezing cold. That's where it lives all the time - summer, winter ..... the car is it's home )

There was a time...long before the Miami Hurricane of 2005, when I would love to spar a bit on the topics of key feel, and piano overtones....but since I started teaching, I have had a shift in priorities. There is not a club or band in the world that could make me leave these kids.
(Well, MAYBE if Tower OF Power calls, and Rocco can't make a gig .... )OK, OK....I said the "G" word ... calm down.

I'm a weekend warrior now, the term makes more sense to me.
So, my dear, brainwashed Fran ... thanx for the muscle in the piano move. I'm sorry that I didn't swoon over your newest $599 Roland. Come back again, and I'll take the PA800 off it's throne for a 1/2 hour for you. I just didn't want to get you all upset after paying too much for that Roland/Kenner piece. I hate to see a grown man cry.

UD, a nicely written rebuttal.

I love all of you guys. The fraternal bantering and rivalry between you is so fun and entertaining. What many readers miss, I fear, is the fact that Dave and Fran were together at Dave's place moving a real piano and all of this came about from their get-together. I really don't detect any animosity, but just plain tit-for-tat. Too bad others of us take exception to it.



[This message has been edited by cassp (edited 01-25-2008).]

You got to be kind to old UD. After all, he's so gullible that he drove 20 hours to pick up a worn out old Bontempi last year.

Thing is, this is a really sincere guy. Visit with him a couple of minutes and you're "hooked" for life! He's just a big old teddy bear with his heart on his sleeve. He's had his nose bent out of shape on a personal level a couple of times in the last few years, but the cat can PLAY his A** off and really acts on his convictions. As a long-time college professor and researcher in the Interpersonal communications field, I can't imagine a better, more dedicated person to do what he's doing. And what he's doing for his kids it REALLY IMPORTANT!

I wouldn't have met him if it wasn't for the "Zone", and, for that, I'm really greatful.
And, if he hadn't told me differently, I would have been sure Fran and Donny were
just tremendous pains in the A**! Now, I enjoy their antics and would like to meet and visit with them some day.

Hang in there, Bud! The world needs more folks like you!


R.

Well..I will be heading out to gig with the E-60...you know that $599, repackaged keyboard that Dave mentioned [see how far off base..even my buddies can be.. ]..

Cass, maybe Uncle Dave can get you a better price than George..

So far the E-60, has taken care of all my keyboard needs with the band...Tonight I will ice[cancel]..the G1000 recorded Mp3's and use the E-60..both sequences and arranger play...I won't even let my band members know what is going on...

I was planning on recording the tunes on the E-60 and save as MP3's[to replace the G1000 tunes], but I think I may as well ..just keep the E-60..

I know it sounds as good as anything else out there, and it is very comfortable to use[since I already know the G70 ]...

I think if Roland added a mic/audio input on this board, for just a little more dough...They would have a winner in a class of it's own..

Of course they would have to take it away from the CK division [home piano stores] and give it to the MI stores..that really would sell the keyboard...

Two week update review coming if anything new..comes to life..

Dave ..warm up the PA800..after breakfast[when you get another day off]..