It was very interesting to note that Ketrons' new Audya is still in prototype stage at NAMM and the only demos were Wav files, according to the NAMM news thread.
This keyboard has been on the release calendar for a year and it would seem Ketron are no closer to a final product.
It was probably the same prototype board they had at Frankfurt, and I was suspicious even then because of NO video of what the guy was actually playing on the keyboard. The video was ALL front on.
Perhaps Ketron are having more difficulty than they first thought in bringing an arranger, "powered" by wav samples instead of the usual midi note sequences, to a final working product.
It will be interesting to see if the final product DOES make it to Frankfurt in March.
I think if it doesn't make it then, it could still be some time off.
What do others think?
Dennis

Miden,

Time can only tell. When I was at the Namm show, I was not able to play with the keyboard because it is just a prototype. Ketron did not allow any visitor to mess around with their new keyboard. What I can tell you is that it sounds very good from the demo file. The keyboard sounds very realistic and natural sound. I always love the live drum and bass sound of Ketron keyboard.

coca

P.s. Did you able to sell your SD1 keyboard? Still interesting in my Midjay

Depends what they are trying to do.
They promote audio drums (A real recording of a drummer and a drum kit) as the next generation, linked to the style by Midi synchronisation. Well Wersi have had these in their instruments since they were launched 8 years or more ago, so I would hardly call it Next Generation. (Unless they mean for a hardware based board)
The most exciting part however (Providing I am reading the details correctly) is the Audio backings, which are also real live recordings (Including all the required chords) and should really be something to look forward too. (Think of the Yamaha Mega voices, but with audio loops instead of Midi loops as Yamaha use)
I suspect that they are having problems getting the audio loops to synchronise with the rest of the style, (Requires a lot of calculations) which being a hardware based system is difficult to correct without redesigning the hardware for faster processing.
Hopefully they will manage to get things sorted, and really give the Big Boys some sleepless nights.
Fingers crossed

Bill

Perhaps they are starting to realize that loops of audio instruments playing, rather than drums (that only need ONE recording), don't have anywhere NEAR the flexibility of chord choices and inversions that MIDI instruments can provide...

The complete lack of ANY editing (you can't change the RECORDING of a major chord into a maj7th, nor an electric guitar into an acoustic, all easy on a MIDI arranger) is going to make these loops get stale pretty quickly, and the cost of making new sets of loops is going to make constant new styles pretty much a thing of the past.

I'm sorry, but apart from drums (and I STILL think the lack of easy editing and the ability to change drumkits make these suspect), I think this is a waste of R&D budget. It's not that the technology is too difficult, several software programs do it now, to varying degrees of success, but they all are Gigabyte sized libraries, beyond the capabilities of a non-streaming hardware keyboard. I don't think many who are clamoring for this technology have thought out the details...

And, even if it can be made to work, one thing that all of us take for granted is the ability to change the Tone that plays a part - want a brighter guitar instead of the one programmed into your style? Piece of cake on a MIDI arranger. Impossible on a recording. Want a brush kit instead of a rock kit? Impossible with a recording. Want a chord extension that the style maker didn't record (not enough memory to record them ALL)? Impossible with a recording.

Before too many manufacturers chuck themselves down this black hole of technology, perhaps they should just concentrate on making better multi-sample instruments, and chord lookup tables that behave appropriately for the instrument. Technologies like SA voices and guitar modes are the way of the future, not everybody playing back the same identical, limited set of audio loops.

Want to sound like EVERYBODY else? This audio loop arranger is the way to go...

Well, for sure with the midi we can manage much better the al chords, BUT the final Audio OUT quality is always based in the soundbank ROM of the keyboard.

Simply midi styles and drums patterns can never follow the Audio loops..agree?

I admire the Audya because if they can resolve the audio sync problems with the Dream DSP, they really are so smart and can compete with the other brands, full of my compliments!

But is hard.. i know this well because we have fight too for manage the all 36 possible chords in realtime, with the 32 patterns..the HD SATA is streaming like crazy.

But also believe me, I have buy some Loopmasters library, like this: http://www.loopmasters.com/sampleshop/10Expand.asp?ProductCode=LMOS_21

and under Qranger we have made some styles demos for testing the system, audio loops and just 2-3 midi tracks under giga sounds..., loading the style ( 360Mb ) in less 1 second and sounds like the original library: http://www.loopmasters.com/sampleshop/products/wav-mp3/Disco%20House%20Sessions%20De mo.mp3

with your midi keyboard and soundfonts you can NEVER reroduce styles that will sounds like this, believe me.
Just with one of this style, under 32 patterns and chords combination mode, you can play for hours like a real DJ too.

for your know, we are in contact with Loopmaster company and they are really interested to produce the all audio styles with all this library.

2008 is the year of the Mediastation too...
cheers

[This message has been edited by LIONSTRACS (edited 01-21-2008).]

I am a former demo guy for Ketron & produced a video owners manual, so I am familiar & a little partial to Ketron. One of the reasons is that navigation is easier than the big 3 or 4 manufacturers in my opinion.

Let's also keep in mind that if you compare all arranger products over the last 10 years, General Music has always been out in front with innovation. Big Screens, Notation, Sampling & Wav Sync were features back in 1996 .

That being said, I think many people have this impression that Ketron has poor navigation and editing is lacking . But it's not. Editing of styles or midi sequences is extremely easy and how Ketron utilizes the hard drive is different than most companies.

When you buy any Ketron product and take it out of the box & you listen to a style play , press 1 button and the screen changes so that you can view the sounds & volumne levels with the press of one button . You can change sounds & levels in real time. If your happy with the changes, you press save enter and one more button (F2) and the keyboard will save your changes ,without saving to a registration. Kind of an instant snap shot of your style preferences.

Editing sound & volume levels is easy with Midi Sequence playback as well.If you copy a midi file to the hard drive, you can play that midi directly from the hard drive and change sound and volume levels and save your changes, without losing the original midi sequence and save on the hard drive.

In regards to audio loops with Ketron products. It was easy to sync drums (SD1) , because drums do not respond to chord progressions. The thinking is audio produces the best playback of real instruments.
With Audya, they are using midi as the map to change multiple audio loops in real time , which is not currently done on any arranger keyboard.

Midi is numbers vs. audio is realistic. Sampling a guy or girl playing guitar is better than using numbers to create that strum....It's getting the multiple samples at the same time, change in real time. That is the trick. Answer ? Use midi to manipulate audio. Hence, Audya !

I hope what I'm saying makes sense.

See Ya... Dan O

Interesting, Dom... I was just under the impression that everyone doing DJ style production was primarily using either Live, or workstation products like MotifXS.

Sadly, you won't find many here that are much into this loop-based electronica. Primarily, arranger players tend towards the older styles, with more complexity in the chord choices and instrument authenticity, than in this DJ-like production. Perhaps there IS a new generation of musicians willing to try DJ-ing on an arranger rather than a laptop or WS, but I doubt you will find them here...

As you said in your first sentence, Dom, MIDI will always (at least for the foreseeable future) have the edge when it comes to the choices in different chord types it is capable of playing back. However, I am not so sure that audio quality is of such a high priority. Witness how important mp3 playback is becoming. Hardly the sign of a concern for audio quality. In fact, I can't remember the last post (other than yours) that made any mention whatsoever about the quality of D/A converters in our arrangers, or what sample rate and depth the final output is.

But we ARE concerned with how authentic the sounds are, and how well they respond to OUR chord input. You know, the whole 'arranger' thing... I often feel there is a chasm between what the arranger makers THINK is important, and what the PLAYERS do. We want to sit down, pick any style, play ANY chord, and have the arranger play back an accompaniment that sounds like real players are playing what WE want them to play (not what someone else recorded), and we want the ability to change what we DON'T LIKE. You can't change the internal elements of a loop. You can't add chord types to a pre-recorded set of loops. You can't take a drum groove recorded on a Gretsch kit, and play it on a Pearl.

You can do ALL of these things with MIDI, and it only takes higher quality sample sets to make them virtually as realistic as un-editable loops. Add in more realistic lookup tables for each kind of instrument, and legato/staccato triggering systems like SA voices, voice-leading technology like Roland's Adaptive Chording, that avoids chord 'jumps' and just changes inversions with minimal 'jumping', and you have something that is FAR more realistic than simple, static, take it or leave it audio loops.

Perhaps there IS a market for an arranger DJ product, although a laptop and Live is FAR less expensive (and more controllable), but I also think this is the wrong place to look...

Personally, I know I don't need this in an arranger, at least, nowhere NEAR as much as I need better sounds, and better, more authentic behavior of the sounds in a style.
And, of course, just like 99% of all arranger players, I don't want to have to think about any of this stuff. I don't want to program it myself, I don't want to do anything more than call up the style, and everything just WORK...

Perhaps dismaying to an engineer, but I believe that the 99% figure is about right... At most, only 1% of the market wants to deal with Linux wrappers, streaming issues, and tailoring large loop libraries for DJ-ing. The rest of us want an ARRANGER... Just like we've got, only better.

Not something more akin to a laptop and Live.

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 01-21-2008).]

@ Diki..+1 and +1 (thats for both posts )
Succinctly put argument, little more to be said.
I reckon Ketron will have to end up releasing a hybrid as they find it is more and more difficult (without a couple of terabyte hard-drives) to do what they need.
Dennis

Team,
There were a few styles within the Audya (which I will put up in a few) that clearly demonstrated the LIVE STYLE features. Again, since this was a prototype, not all features, functions, sounds and styles are complete, but the demos will give you a taste of what's to come.
Thanks,
AJ

Thanks AJ, that would be great. Where will you post them? Ketron US?
Cheers
Dennis