WHO should post music? Anyone who WANTS to. The key word here being WANT. You should never, ever, do it because you feel coerced into it. One thing, though. If you do choose to post, make sure you are prepared for any type of feedback, positive or negative.

WHY post music on an arranger board? I'm not really sure. Most of the music posted uses arranger styles (available to anyone with the same keyboard) and/or SMF's. That may be your singing, that may be your solo on top, but that is NOT your music. I think using an arranger to flesh out and showcase an original composition is also a legitimate reason for posting, but a songwriters board might be more appropriate.

When should you post? Again, I'm not sure. Perhaps with the advent of a new arranger where factory demos are not yet available. Or perhaps to demonstrate some unique feature of your keyboard as yet undiscovered by others. Or maybe as a promo if you're trying to sell the darn thing.

Where should you post? Again, this goes to motive. If you're genuinely looking for unbiased feedback or trying to promote your music, I think a site such as SongRamp is more appropriate. No friends to falsely bolster your ego or enemies to tear you down, regardless of the quality of your work.

Then there is the "put up or shut up" brigade. Nigel has accurately (and colorfully) identified them as the "dick wavers". Their challenge usually comes at the end of a heated "mine is better than yours" or "yours is crap, even though I don't know crap about it" debate. They can be further identified as people who THINK that they're a lot better than they really are. This is not a shot at lounge performers (it's a tough job and doing it WELL as a OMB is even tougher) as that is what I have mostly been over the years, but the reality is that the classic lounge performer (OMB/MC/DJ/"Entertainer" types) is a dime a dozen and few if any real music lovers go out to hear them. The people that DO go to the clubs where these people play go mostly for the atmosphere (party time), to 'pick up chicks' (apologies, Rikki), or (if they're 'regulars') the 'performer' might acknowledge them by name, making them an instant 'mini-celebrity' (for the next five minutes). Asking someone to 'post something' implies that the MUSIC is important, when clearly it is not. These taunts, throw-downs, challenges, whatever, usually come from a need to bolster one's own self-esteem as they are sure that the posted performance will not equal their own. The truth is, these people are rarely, if ever, as good as they THINK they are.

If you really want to hear how good a keyboard CAN sound, listen to the factory demo; with few exceptions (Mediastation being one), it will always be lightyears better than anything most of our members can produce and will say much more about an instruments capabilities. Fran had the right idea when asked to demo the E60, although, in the interest of complete disclosure, should have mentioned that it was a factory demo playing.

And what does it really prove, posting a tune done on an arranger? That you can sing? That you can layer a melody (or a half-assed solo) over a 'canned' arrangement? It proves very little about the capabilities and especially the quality of the instrument which is STILL going to remain subjective long after we're all dead and gone.

I really hate this thing of anytime someone dares suggest that YOUR instrument of choice may not be the best choice for someone else, the immediate response is, "put up or shut up", as though that's going to definitively answer ANYTHING.

For the record, I won't post any music on this board because it is an ARRANGER board and I only play live organ/piano trio jazz. I am not, nor have ever been, a OMB (although I have played solo piano and organ gigs). For one thing, I can't sing (I enjoy my singing, but apparently no one else does). For another, I most enjoy playing with other musicians (and singers). This is not to say that I don't love my arranger(s) or that I'm not intrigued by arranger technology. It's just that I use them exclusively for songwriting, rough arrangements, and stimulating the creative process. That is why the most important thing to me in an arranger keyboard is the styles. I happen to like Korg's styles better than most of the others. Just a personal preference that relates to the type of music I play and compose. Nothing more.

Of course, all of the above is merely my opinion (assuming I'm still allowed to have one) and any similarity to the truth is purely coincidental. BTW, I am fully expecting a response that begins "Out of respect for Nigel........."

chas

Out of respect for Nigel....just kidding.

Actually, Chas, your post makes much sense to me...these silly challenges go back to grade school playground.

I've never considered SZ a place to post my music...no matter how many times I was coherced and challenged...there are plenty of forums that I'm a member of that specialize in sharing music...I come here to discuss arrangers, or other related instruments...that's all.

Good post, buddy.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 01-30-2008).]

chas ... I too dislike the 'put up or shut up' attitudes, the posting of 'samples' without due credit or full disclosure, the "mine is better than yours" attitudes, and the "your singing, playing, whatever, stinks" type of commentary ...

And I fully respect your opinion (and OF COURSE you are still allowed to have one)and your right to post it, but I have a couple of thoughts contrary to it ...

First, as this IS an arranger forum, and is frequented by arranger players, many of whom play the same type of music, for the same type of audiences, in the same types of venues, it is my HUMBLE, (but perhaps misguided), opinion, that it IS a place to post and share our music, if only to hear someone else's treatment of a song ...
Secondly, if someone plays a 'half assed solo' over a style and that is the best they can do, then so be it ...
Thirdly, as I am a "OMB/Entertainer" lounge player, and may be a "dime a dozen", to say that "few if any real music lovers go out to hear them" is an insult to me and to the people who come out to hear US.
I would say that many of us here, through years of playing 'lounges' whatever, have developed a following of people who come out to hear US ... should our audiences not be considered music lovers because of that?

I would venture to say that you and your trio have developed a 'following' as well, but are THEY music lovers because you play jazz?
I have stated many times on this forum that jazz happens to be the music I most enjoy listening to , and I feel that I've missed something by not having had the training, and probably the talent, to play it ...
But to say or imply that people who go out purposely to hear a OMB are not music lovers is to slight a rather large audience...

If I have misunderstood or misinterpreted, any of your comments, I apologize in advance.

t.

Tony, bands, including jazz trios, are also a dime a dozen. The distinction I intended to make was not so much between the musicians as the audiences. I think it is infinitely harder to entertain an audience as a single than as the (practically invisible) member of a band, complete with a featured vocalist. I know for sure that I couldn't do it and I admire those that can do it well. I have a friend who does it (well) and he does, for sure, have a following; a big one. He is a better than average singer and an incredible musician (pianist/organist/synthesist, in the truest since on the word) and has always made a good living (he's never done anything else). He's also a great entertainer, a true professional. BUT....I still think the people that come to see him, his 'following', come for the 'event', not the music. The fact that the music is good only enhances the 'event' but is definitely secondary.

So, by "dime a dozen", I'm referring to the thousands of musicians, OMB's/groups, etc. that work the (too few, largely second-tier) bars, clubs, restaurants, dance halls, senior facilities, "concert-in-the-park", corporate parties, etc.

Actually, I knew when I re-read it that that particular portion would draw some flak but was too lazy to re-word it. The truth is, with the exception of one individual, I have no feelings of animosity towards any of the members of Synthzone. In fact, I feel a great affinity with quite a few of them. In the case of the exception, I feel that the person is a hard-core bigot, and I hate bigots, simple as that. Trust me, it's not hard to tell the difference between when someone is 'funning' you (like Fran ), and when it's something much deeper. And, let's let it go at that.

I appreciate your thoughts and your sincerity, Tony, and if you're ever in the neighborhood, look me up. I really enjoy the company of other 'ol' fart' musicians. Hey, there could still be hope for our 'trio' .

chas

Chas and Tony, good posts with valid points on each side.

It took me 5 years to post anything because my stuff is not done using an arranger, and I didn't see the point. It didn't belong here. I sent it to you, Tony, Nigel and Rory first, but wouldn't have posted anything if I hadn't been asked (a little coersion involved also). I just decided to do it once and get it over with. Still not sure I did the right thing for the right reasons. At least now, maby people will have a frame of reference when they read my input on musicianship, music styles, history, players, etc.

While I don't particularly like arrangers, I do use them on about 40% of my live work and believe that it is possible for a quality musician to use basic patterns and still personalize the final enough to demonstrate talent and performance ability. It's a slippery slope. I draw the line at using sequences, MP-3's and the like but understand that this attitude is semantics, in part. Around here, for some work, an arranger is an economic reality. I always have to try to use it as a "tool", not a "crutch". And, I'm fortunate to count many in the local music community in the audience most nights (man, the alternatives must really suck).Don't see a time when I'd post something done with an arranger, because I don't have the time and patience to really learn the equipment I'd rather not use at all.

Guys,I sincerely hope this temporary "glitch" disappears and that "The Feeble Winds" stay together and keeps "reaching for the stars"!

Russ "Woodie" Lay
(Guthrie, not....well...you know...)

One last comment ( ) from me on this issue ...

chas ... when your friend has his 'following' follow him to whatever venue he may be playing at, in my opinion, HE and his MUSIC are the draw ... the 'event' maybe fun for all, but HE brought them there ...
I guess the question to ask is "Would they be there, if he weren't?" ...
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one ...

Russ ... In the group's name "The Feeble Winds", the first letter of the third word isn't upside down is it ???

t.

...or maybe "The Feeble WindBAGS" or better yet, "The FeebleMinded Windbags". Yep, that's my final answer.

Tony, on the other thing, yeah...we're both sorta' right. They come to see him because he creates a party atmosphere. The fact that he is able to do that while playing the heck out of a stack of keyboards, operate a drum machine, sing, flirt with the waitresses, down a drink, and trim his toenails at the same time, just adds to it. But I still don't think they come to listen to the music (the way they do in say, a jazz club). It's way too loud for that anyway, wherever he plays.

Oh, and yeah. It's alright for us to disagree. In fact, I've already forgotten what we were disagreeing about. It'll come back to me, I go through these bouts.

chas

I am not convinced that there is any distinction between people that go to hear a OMB play sing etc and an Oscar Peterson Concert . How people appreciate music will always be subjective for them and the performer will always influence how the audience appreciate the performance. Some people say that sting is a great bass player but i know better bass players that wont get the audiences sting gets. Some people think Elton Johns a great pianist and yet cats like Frank McCombe who are in DIFFERENT LEAGUE ALTOGETHER (in my opinion) wont get the audiences elton will get.

Is that because people love the music better or the person or is it both ??????

I know this for a fact, if Sting were playing in the UK at the NIA or Peter Baartmans for yamaha, i would be at Mr Baartmans.

And thats based purely on the skill of the musician.

Hi Spalding
They are both good at their particular types of entertainment, and as you say it is down to personal choice.
BTW keep your eyes peeled, as there is a Wersi tour with Brett Wales heading your way in the next couple of months, which will introduce the OAS lite software. (A less featured and cheaper version of OAS 7, but with the OAA coming as standard)
I would also imagine there will be a Korg PA2x tour sometime in the future, (Just like there was for the PA800) again featuring Brett Wales.
Enjoy

Bill

I think Sting and Elton are known more for their writing and performing than as instrumentalists.