WHO should post music? Anyone who WANTS to. The key word here being WANT. You should never, ever, do it because you feel coerced into it. One thing, though. If you do choose to post, make sure you are prepared for any type of feedback, positive or negative.

WHY post music on an arranger board? I'm not really sure. Most of the music posted uses arranger styles (available to anyone with the same keyboard) and/or SMF's. That may be your singing, that may be your solo on top, but that is NOT your music. I think using an arranger to flesh out and showcase an original composition is also a legitimate reason for posting, but a songwriters board might be more appropriate.

When should you post? Again, I'm not sure. Perhaps with the advent of a new arranger where factory demos are not yet available. Or perhaps to demonstrate some unique feature of your keyboard as yet undiscovered by others. Or maybe as a promo if you're trying to sell the darn thing.

Where should you post? Again, this goes to motive. If you're genuinely looking for unbiased feedback or trying to promote your music, I think a site such as SongRamp is more appropriate. No friends to falsely bolster your ego or enemies to tear you down, regardless of the quality of your work.

Then there is the "put up or shut up" brigade. Nigel has accurately (and colorfully) identified them as the "dick wavers". Their challenge usually comes at the end of a heated "mine is better than yours" or "yours is crap, even though I don't know crap about it" debate. They can be further identified as people who THINK that they're a lot better than they really are. This is not a shot at lounge performers (it's a tough job and doing it WELL as a OMB is even tougher) as that is what I have mostly been over the years, but the reality is that the classic lounge performer (OMB/MC/DJ/"Entertainer" types) is a dime a dozen and few if any real music lovers go out to hear them. The people that DO go to the clubs where these people play go mostly for the atmosphere (party time), to 'pick up chicks' (apologies, Rikki), or (if they're 'regulars') the 'performer' might acknowledge them by name, making them an instant 'mini-celebrity' (for the next five minutes). Asking someone to 'post something' implies that the MUSIC is important, when clearly it is not. These taunts, throw-downs, challenges, whatever, usually come from a need to bolster one's own self-esteem as they are sure that the posted performance will not equal their own. The truth is, these people are rarely, if ever, as good as they THINK they are.

If you really want to hear how good a keyboard CAN sound, listen to the factory demo; with few exceptions (Mediastation being one), it will always be lightyears better than anything most of our members can produce and will say much more about an instruments capabilities. Fran had the right idea when asked to demo the E60, although, in the interest of complete disclosure, should have mentioned that it was a factory demo playing.

And what does it really prove, posting a tune done on an arranger? That you can sing? That you can layer a melody (or a half-assed solo) over a 'canned' arrangement? It proves very little about the capabilities and especially the quality of the instrument which is STILL going to remain subjective long after we're all dead and gone.

I really hate this thing of anytime someone dares suggest that YOUR instrument of choice may not be the best choice for someone else, the immediate response is, "put up or shut up", as though that's going to definitively answer ANYTHING.

For the record, I won't post any music on this board because it is an ARRANGER board and I only play live organ/piano trio jazz. I am not, nor have ever been, a OMB (although I have played solo piano and organ gigs). For one thing, I can't sing (I enjoy my singing, but apparently no one else does). For another, I most enjoy playing with other musicians (and singers). This is not to say that I don't love my arranger(s) or that I'm not intrigued by arranger technology. It's just that I use them exclusively for songwriting, rough arrangements, and stimulating the creative process. That is why the most important thing to me in an arranger keyboard is the styles. I happen to like Korg's styles better than most of the others. Just a personal preference that relates to the type of music I play and compose. Nothing more.

Of course, all of the above is merely my opinion (assuming I'm still allowed to have one) and any similarity to the truth is purely coincidental. BTW, I am fully expecting a response that begins "Out of respect for Nigel........."

chas

Out of respect for Nigel....just kidding.

Actually, Chas, your post makes much sense to me...these silly challenges go back to grade school playground.

I've never considered SZ a place to post my music...no matter how many times I was coherced and challenged...there are plenty of forums that I'm a member of that specialize in sharing music...I come here to discuss arrangers, or other related instruments...that's all.

Good post, buddy.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 01-30-2008).]

chas ... I too dislike the 'put up or shut up' attitudes, the posting of 'samples' without due credit or full disclosure, the "mine is better than yours" attitudes, and the "your singing, playing, whatever, stinks" type of commentary ...

And I fully respect your opinion (and OF COURSE you are still allowed to have one)and your right to post it, but I have a couple of thoughts contrary to it ...

First, as this IS an arranger forum, and is frequented by arranger players, many of whom play the same type of music, for the same type of audiences, in the same types of venues, it is my HUMBLE, (but perhaps misguided), opinion, that it IS a place to post and share our music, if only to hear someone else's treatment of a song ...
Secondly, if someone plays a 'half assed solo' over a style and that is the best they can do, then so be it ...
Thirdly, as I am a "OMB/Entertainer" lounge player, and may be a "dime a dozen", to say that "few if any real music lovers go out to hear them" is an insult to me and to the people who come out to hear US.
I would say that many of us here, through years of playing 'lounges' whatever, have developed a following of people who come out to hear US ... should our audiences not be considered music lovers because of that?

I would venture to say that you and your trio have developed a 'following' as well, but are THEY music lovers because you play jazz?
I have stated many times on this forum that jazz happens to be the music I most enjoy listening to , and I feel that I've missed something by not having had the training, and probably the talent, to play it ...
But to say or imply that people who go out purposely to hear a OMB are not music lovers is to slight a rather large audience...

If I have misunderstood or misinterpreted, any of your comments, I apologize in advance.

t.

Tony, bands, including jazz trios, are also a dime a dozen. The distinction I intended to make was not so much between the musicians as the audiences. I think it is infinitely harder to entertain an audience as a single than as the (practically invisible) member of a band, complete with a featured vocalist. I know for sure that I couldn't do it and I admire those that can do it well. I have a friend who does it (well) and he does, for sure, have a following; a big one. He is a better than average singer and an incredible musician (pianist/organist/synthesist, in the truest since on the word) and has always made a good living (he's never done anything else). He's also a great entertainer, a true professional. BUT....I still think the people that come to see him, his 'following', come for the 'event', not the music. The fact that the music is good only enhances the 'event' but is definitely secondary.

So, by "dime a dozen", I'm referring to the thousands of musicians, OMB's/groups, etc. that work the (too few, largely second-tier) bars, clubs, restaurants, dance halls, senior facilities, "concert-in-the-park", corporate parties, etc.

Actually, I knew when I re-read it that that particular portion would draw some flak but was too lazy to re-word it. The truth is, with the exception of one individual, I have no feelings of animosity towards any of the members of Synthzone. In fact, I feel a great affinity with quite a few of them. In the case of the exception, I feel that the person is a hard-core bigot, and I hate bigots, simple as that. Trust me, it's not hard to tell the difference between when someone is 'funning' you (like Fran ), and when it's something much deeper. And, let's let it go at that.

I appreciate your thoughts and your sincerity, Tony, and if you're ever in the neighborhood, look me up. I really enjoy the company of other 'ol' fart' musicians. Hey, there could still be hope for our 'trio' .

chas

Chas and Tony, good posts with valid points on each side.

It took me 5 years to post anything because my stuff is not done using an arranger, and I didn't see the point. It didn't belong here. I sent it to you, Tony, Nigel and Rory first, but wouldn't have posted anything if I hadn't been asked (a little coersion involved also). I just decided to do it once and get it over with. Still not sure I did the right thing for the right reasons. At least now, maby people will have a frame of reference when they read my input on musicianship, music styles, history, players, etc.

While I don't particularly like arrangers, I do use them on about 40% of my live work and believe that it is possible for a quality musician to use basic patterns and still personalize the final enough to demonstrate talent and performance ability. It's a slippery slope. I draw the line at using sequences, MP-3's and the like but understand that this attitude is semantics, in part. Around here, for some work, an arranger is an economic reality. I always have to try to use it as a "tool", not a "crutch". And, I'm fortunate to count many in the local music community in the audience most nights (man, the alternatives must really suck).Don't see a time when I'd post something done with an arranger, because I don't have the time and patience to really learn the equipment I'd rather not use at all.

Guys,I sincerely hope this temporary "glitch" disappears and that "The Feeble Winds" stay together and keeps "reaching for the stars"!

Russ "Woodie" Lay
(Guthrie, not....well...you know...)

One last comment ( ) from me on this issue ...

chas ... when your friend has his 'following' follow him to whatever venue he may be playing at, in my opinion, HE and his MUSIC are the draw ... the 'event' maybe fun for all, but HE brought them there ...
I guess the question to ask is "Would they be there, if he weren't?" ...
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one ...

Russ ... In the group's name "The Feeble Winds", the first letter of the third word isn't upside down is it ???

t.

...or maybe "The Feeble WindBAGS" or better yet, "The FeebleMinded Windbags". Yep, that's my final answer.

Tony, on the other thing, yeah...we're both sorta' right. They come to see him because he creates a party atmosphere. The fact that he is able to do that while playing the heck out of a stack of keyboards, operate a drum machine, sing, flirt with the waitresses, down a drink, and trim his toenails at the same time, just adds to it. But I still don't think they come to listen to the music (the way they do in say, a jazz club). It's way too loud for that anyway, wherever he plays.

Oh, and yeah. It's alright for us to disagree. In fact, I've already forgotten what we were disagreeing about. It'll come back to me, I go through these bouts.

chas

I am not convinced that there is any distinction between people that go to hear a OMB play sing etc and an Oscar Peterson Concert . How people appreciate music will always be subjective for them and the performer will always influence how the audience appreciate the performance. Some people say that sting is a great bass player but i know better bass players that wont get the audiences sting gets. Some people think Elton Johns a great pianist and yet cats like Frank McCombe who are in DIFFERENT LEAGUE ALTOGETHER (in my opinion) wont get the audiences elton will get.

Is that because people love the music better or the person or is it both ??????

I know this for a fact, if Sting were playing in the UK at the NIA or Peter Baartmans for yamaha, i would be at Mr Baartmans.

And thats based purely on the skill of the musician.

Hi Spalding
They are both good at their particular types of entertainment, and as you say it is down to personal choice.
BTW keep your eyes peeled, as there is a Wersi tour with Brett Wales heading your way in the next couple of months, which will introduce the OAS lite software. (A less featured and cheaper version of OAS 7, but with the OAA coming as standard)
I would also imagine there will be a Korg PA2x tour sometime in the future, (Just like there was for the PA800) again featuring Brett Wales.
Enjoy

Bill

I think Sting and Elton are known more for their writing and performing than as instrumentalists.

I think that perhaps a certain amount of posting is necessary to deflate the 'stubs' being waved (none of the 'dick-wavers' got much to wave, IMO), or at least deflect the attention back on topic.

First of all, there is TONS of music posted here (mostly YouTube clips) that are NOTHING to do with arrangers, by those very stub-wavers. So I wouldn't worry about relevance. I would VERY much like to hear Capt. Russ, chas, any of our 'silent' members' stuff, not out of a need for something to pick apart, but out of a need for community. Talking about music is like dancing about physics... It's not the right medium for exchanging the heart of the topic. Without an audio reference, how do you KNOW if you are being bullsh*tted or not..?

Take our friend Fran, for instance. Owned a music store. Owns a studio. Plays in bands, OMB, duos, whatever. Has doo-wop stars sit in occasionally, yada, yada, yada. If he never posted his playing, you might actually take him seriously from time to time.

But why are we letting these guys (let's face it, other than Fran and Donny, is there anyone else that you think you would rather NOT let comment on anything you post?) dictate the direction of this forum? The first rule of criticism is you HAVE to respect the critic. Otherwise, it is meaningless. Noise. Less than noise. White noise

Be truthful, chas. If they weren't here, would you feel more inclined to post? Just for fun...? 'If you like him, you're gonna LUV me'? Not as dick-waving, but as soul-sharing?

If so, you do yourself and all of us here a disservice by taking them into account whatsoever. I am already fairly certain you don't regard them as experts in any sense of the word. So why does what any of them say have any bearing on this at all?

All of the greats have recorded covers. No reason we should feel any different. Don't want to post a cover? Post an improv. You also have to remember that, with perhaps a few exceptions, all of us here are keyboard players first, and arranger players second (or third, or not at all!). As such, I'm happy to listen to anything. Hammond, techno, Township Jive, you name it. I am not one of those 'if it ain't done on an arranger, it don't belong here' crowd (from the Duke of URL's posts, I know he feels the same!).

The arranger is the great grandchild of the organ, and many still buy one to recreate that sound (hard as it may be!). I don't feel an organ MP3 would be out of place at all here.

But to restate... If Fran and Donny (sound like a Mormon duo, anyone? ) are the main reason to NOT post, ignore them.

Can't think of WHY to post here? Because we want to hear it! Because you don't suck! Because, if you post it anywhere else, you might as well link to it here (Donny will track you down, anyway)! Because the bar deserves to be raised around here just a bit! Because, if your music is good enough to be heard in public anywhere, why are we so less deserving, here at SZ?!

Otherwise, SZ turns into American Idol, where artists (of all levels!) are judged by self-styled 'experts' with FAR less credibility than the saps they lord it over.

Take back the SZ! Make it ours again!
------------------------------------
(edited for typos only!)

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 01-30-2008).]

Because, if your music is good enough to be heard in public anywhere, why are we so less deserving, here at SZ?!

... good point ...
t.

Diki, go back and read the first three sentences of the my opening post on this thread. Trying to use pop psychology on me tells me what you think of my intellect (as say, compared to yours). How does this separate you from Fran and Donny? BTW, that goes for Tony as well. Seems he hasn't given up either. I'm not going to respond to any more attempts to trick, cajole, bait, shame, push, me into doing something I don't care to do. As far as being a comfortable place to post music, have you already forgotten what you just did to Fran. It's not that he didn't deserve it, but it's contrary to what you're saying now. If not posting music means that I should not comment on gear that I own or on random Youtube clips, then so be it. It's starting to seem like getting me to post my music has become some kind of cause celebre. Cease and desist, please.

chas

1)All it does is restart the old defensive stand of "you haven't posted your music so you have no say".

2)You can get away with much more playing in a retirement home then you would playing in a jazz club. Just check out the audience.

3)Isn't it that those who post expect praise and nothing but praise? (see 1)

Taike

Yeah right thats because everyone is all Potted & coked up & drugged out ......

These Retired Active Adults, or the 55+ crowd who have lived thru the best times for music that ever was & will ever be......
They Heard & Danced to the Best Big Bands & Artists in the world.
Anybody that's thinks they don't know anything about music? Your very mistaken!

This thread makes me think of the song "What part of no don't you understand"?

Ian

chas ... All I said was that Diki made a good point ... For once and for all, I AM NOT trying to "trick, cajole, bait, shame, push" YOU or anyone else into posting their music !!!

t.

Diki, a month or so ago, I guess you missed my post asking you and Chas to evaluate a film score rough I had Don Mason post for me. If you'd like, I'll send you that piece on a disk. You can probably find the original post in mid-December. It was called "captain Russ can really play" or something like that. Ian, Dreamer, "jazz trio Dave", Chico and others were very kind in their reviews.

Would value your input as a player with "cred", in my mind.

Send me your address if you want me to send you a disk.


Thanks,


Russ

Taike is right. I don't do nursing homes regularly because being able to do jazz clubs is personally more of a challenge and more fulfilling. I visit a VA where my father-in-law lives regularly and I am a supporter of a group called Kentuckians For Nursing Home Reform, which lobbies for minimum staffing requirements, cridentials of workers, background checks, etc. Nationally, the level of care at "for profit" facilities is deplorable, and that really bothers me.

This is absolutely no criticism of the talent and dedication it takes to work in nursing homes/assisted living facilities. I donate the proceeds of one gig a week, and, sometimes these are at nursing homes. But, doing those jobs just isn't for me right now.


Russ

Hey door stop..you still spouting....don't let the door knob hit you in the chin....

Another 'Thread gone wild!'...

Chas, I wasn't trying to 'bait' you (and it's hardly cajoling!). I just think it's a shame that, while you are obviously good enough to play with some of the finest, we aren't good enough to hear it.

I never try to 'bait' a player into posting (you'll notice I don't try, unlike Donny, getting perhaps weaker players to 'put up or shut up'), in fact, the only people I DO ask to hear are ones I REALLY want to, as I can usually tell from their demeanor and attitude whether they got the goods or not. I like to listen to jazz organ, and would like to hear what you are doing. No further motive than that.

I remember you popping in to Roland-arranger.com to listen to a little Zawinul thing I did a while back, and the nice comment you made (appreciated ) but there ARE mistakes and bad arranger tracking in it. I don't think it would have got posted at all if I followed the 'guidelines' above. It's a cover, it's got mistakes, it's not a factory demo. And you'd have never heard it. Would you be poorer for missing it? I doubt it! But it wasn't posted as a 'look at me!' kind of thing, just a tribute to a guy I liked.

Other things have been posted by me as arranger sound and capability demos, particularly after the uninformed (or just ill-advised!) trashing of the G70 when it first came out. A C1 demo from you might be posted in the same vein... But only if you want to, of course. But, of course, these things are not posted by me to gain respect (I am reasonably content in my own skin!) but simply as illustrations in a book about art. You can TALK about Van Gogh or Jackson Pollack (or Stan Lee!) all you want, but without a single illustration, it's not so illuminating .

The whole 'factory demo' thing is something of a blind alley, as far as I am concerned. Sometimes they are WAY better than an average player can make them (Roland typically NEVER post demos that are done just by arranger playing... they are heavily edited SMF's, initially derived in part from arranger play), and then some like Mediastation are very poor in contrast to what a reasonable player could make of them. So, to a certain extent, it is up to us (the consumer) to provide a little 'reality check'.

Could I go and Google a bunch of C1 YouTube demos? Sure could. But it would be nice if I could just hear one (and I know it'll be good!) and go 'I know that guy!'?

Sure would!

Diki, Diki, Diki. Looks like you just won't take NO for an answer. I don't know why it's so important for you to hear an old, washed up organ player that doesn't even play your kind of music. Sounds like morbid curiosity to me. Okay, here's the deal. I still will not post on this board but if it's that important to you, I'll make a short clip and email it to you. I took my Zoom H2 with me to last rehearsal to tape something for Miami Mo, but in the heat of rehearsal, I forgot all about it. I'll just have to make you a track here. This is whats involved. Take it out of it's practice rig in the rec room, set up a temporary stand in my studio, get it wired into my Akai DPS24, cut a track using a drum pattern from one of the arrangers, do a rough mix, port it over to Reaper or something for conversion to mp3. Put everything back. Sounds like it has all the makings of that Bruce Katz demo video. But for you......

Do you have decent bandwith, as I usually render mp3's at 320, but I can knock it down as much as 192. Maybe I'll have time to do it tonight, depends on the Democratic debate. If not, I'll do it tomorrow. Geez, what a waste of time and effort, to prove what? Shall I include pics?

chas

Chas...I'd love for you to send me one too, if it's not a bother...192kbps is fine for me....please.

The Nord C1 is back-ordered and I may not get to try it before going in the hospital.

Anyway, no pressure for the tune...I leave it up to you.

Ian

Thanks chas... Yes, I have broadband. You are not indulging my morbid curiosity, and I am probably the LAST guy on this forum to not want to hear music I don't play. In fact, my greatest joy is to hear stuff I don't actually make a living doing! My tastes range from Bj�rk to Bach, from Soca to Sinatra, from Amy Grant to Amy Winehouse. If it's good, I can dig it...

And you don't learn by not listening.

BTW, no pics necessary, unless you can put me in by the door!

I feel slighted Chas...

chas ... Well, I guess it's nice to know that AT LEAST Diki has enough of your respect to grant him a listen.

I am NOT going to ask for it, as I said I wouldn't ... BUT, my e-mail address is in my profile..
t.

Chas, just curious. Last year you put forth the notion of an SZ collaboration tune, primarily focusing on those with talents apart from arrangers. Yet now you have no desire to post any music here at all, either because it is too much work, or it is not arranger music, or whatever else. Almost seems like a complete reversal on some levels.

I haven't posted much music here either. but I've posted enough that people who want to know can know. And I won't start any threads opining over who should post and who shouldn't. I'll just be discriminating about who I do listen to. And the list is not that long.

if it wouldnt be too much trouble chas......me too please.

Maybe because this is an arranger forum?

Sharing arrangements with arranger keyboards, on arranger message boards, is what some desire, and some do not.

Sorry, I'm lost with this thread...what is the point?

Larry

The point is, if you want to share your music, do it; if you don't, then don't. The post was in response to pressure by some members who don't seem to understand the second part of the preceding statement. The opinions expressed in the post are mine alone. If you don't agree with some or all or any of them, that's fine. If you don't see the point, then just skip down to the next thread that you DO get. Problem solved.

chas

It's not a problem for me Chas.

For the majority of us, the 'pressure' to post a song is a rather minor decision, Yes, or no is an easy choice.

speaking of moving on...




------------------
Larry
SynthZone Frapper

So now it's time to say goodnight. Goodnight