Ya know this might sound weird....but there ain't much left for me to try out there regarding arrangers ...somehow the Roland G70 sticks in my mind. Every time I see or play Frans G70 in his studio I say to myself did I make the biggest mistake by selling mine?
Lets face it, its one AWESOME Keyboard that is quality built and has so many
Pro Features........I wish I wasn't so fickle but thats something I guess I was born with.The great G70's key-feel haunts me in the back of my mind every time I play something substandard to it. I also miss the great sounds/styles, organs & draw-bars & touch screen & the makeup tools are so effective in the editing department it ain't funny..

"Sigh"... decisions decisions

PS this was a sad day for me......
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/013808.html


[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 02-05-2008).]

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 02-05-2008).]

Donny, wait a few months and be the first kid on the block with the AUDYA. Availability... Italy says April/May, Ted says July, I'd bet on Sept or October. It just might have everything you want and then some... worth the wait?

Donny ... it's time to try this: http://www.accordion-o-rama.com/
t.

[This message has been edited by tony mads usa (edited 02-05-2008).]

Fran, does it make you feel good, or somehow superior, to put down other people's choice of keyboards? It's not necessary. We all know your preference.
It just gets really old, and will continue to be counterproductive to objective keyboard discussion.
DonM

Tony..you have it ..Accordion time..

What goes around....
t.

Donny, go for it. You passed on the e60, so you must be waiting for something. It sounds to me like you gotta go with the E80 or G70. Don't listen to Fran, tho. He's got a one track mind, even if he is right most of the time

Donny,

If your considering the G70, why not the Pa2xpro?

Al

Donny, have you tried the key feel of the Pa2X? It's very sensitive to how you play. I have a lot to learn in the user interface but so far I have liked the music I have made with this board. Wow!

Graham

Don, I was talking to Donny..maybe I should have just emailed him..or were you referring to the accordion comment..

Since you edited your post, it makes mine seem totally stupid. I don't have time for these time-wasting games, so I'll do the same.
DonM

[This message has been edited by DonM (edited 02-05-2008).]

Donny,

I know where you're coming from. Every arranger has its + / - and there is not ONE single board that does it all. The PA800 has great stuff, but NO WAY would I replace the 900 live with it. It just lacks way too many things vs Yamaha. I don't want to carry (2) boards, so I'm looking too.

I haven't had my hands on a G70, but maybe that's next for me too.

I might never be totally satisfied in my lifetime, but have to keep trying stuff until I am.

Perhaps Donny you should wait another 3 months, give or take...

This is what will happen Dnj.

The weight,style flow (sounds sometimes)will start to bother you for instant play,then you'll go back to T2,(s 900) or may be SD1(less likely).

Donny,

Dump that S900...the G70 will be perfect for you...just ask Fran for his unbiased opinion.

Maybe he'll lend you his two handsome roadies.

Ian

Donny, that would be my thought. Before reading your post this morning last night I went to the Roland site to have a look at a demo of their KRM117 grand piano for home. Short story is I wound up viewing the G70 demos as demoed by Chris Halon. Gotta say I got a little nostalgic for the G70, it is a great board. Now that you don't have 2 Mackies and stands to take to gigs, maybe the G70 weight won't be as big an issue.

Good luck with your decision.

Steve thank you for your thoughts I always appreciate them......all that you have said is spinning in my head......Honestly the S900 sounds & styles are very good, I love the SA voices in certain songs it gives you that lil extra edge if you utilize them correctly & because I make it sound even better with edits,tweaks, and whatever experience I have absorbed after 40 years of performing live, but in no way is it my ultimate arranger, but for teh price its definitly a good bang for the buck.....But, if I'm being honest with you, I'm using it for now, but its like walking on egg shells, the Vocal harmonizer is useless and now I dont even use it AT ALL it sounds like a KAZOO at best... its that bad compared to the G70 & PA800,& for a singer that bothers me and limits my playing, Vocals and full singing potential, Yamaha has dropped the ball big time on T2/S900 in this regard they really have to put a quality Voc unit inside their units. In a way Im glad I have experienced many of them this makes for a better overall decision in the end on what to settle with someday....certain things reflect our decisions to buy,keep,love/hate, our gear.....some love it, some hate it & some dont know the difference, some sing, some dont sing, some play only at home & some play professionally to make a living......nobody is right or wrong, some have strong convictions, but when the smoke clears its ONLY YOU who have to buy it, play it, & be happy with you choice. I'm getting close to my ultimate choice but its not my fickleness at this point its just a bit to soon because I know we are on the quest of arranger Nirvana....Shangrila is coming in the next two years & who knows I might join Diki & Fran's longetivity in settling down & enjoying ONE Arranger Keyboard that has ALL MY Needs covered for many years after that ...
I have no choice but to wait and see.

My fingers are crossed.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 02-06-2008).]

yeah, we're all waiting/dreaming of ko-rol-amaha!

I know I'm always funnin' ya, but seriously, it must be hard to get just the right one for all your needs.

VH on T2 and S900 doesn't matter to me as I do all instrumentals, but it surely is pretty bad, I agree.

Good luck in your search.

Ian

PS Stay away from Fran's roadies...they look mean.

Ian individual needs is the main reason why we have all thses silly arguments....Playing an arranger KB is a Super personal thing isolated to the Individual PLAYERS NEEDS.....being we are ALL different in our talents, needs, and musical tastes & technics....manufacturer can only generalize the features included and hope for the best in sales changing designs as the new units are offered though the years...one day someone might get it right so far its close but NO CIGAR

You're right Donny...I do hope, however that the Tyros3 has a new Vocal Harmonizer...and that it filters down to the next S-series.

Ian the Hopeful

Why not enjoy the best of both worlds by utilizing an external vocal processor? That's what I've been doing for years. And, some of the new vocal processors are very small and sound fantastic. Something to think about.

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

Gary,

What do you use/recommend for an external vocal harmonizer?

Ian

Gary as you well know I have used a Digitech VR Module & Tc helicon Units many times.... & yes there is no comparison...but why shouldnt they include in their keyboards a quality ALL IN ONE like Rolands G70, Korg PA800 in Yamaha units as well instead of having to carry another piece of gear on a daily basis.....Im glad we're finaly all in agreement on something.......

This may be a little OT, but it came to me reading this thread - Yamaha should put their TOTL and MOTL boards and put them into a module. Blindfolded, they sound great, but the tactile interface leaves much to be desired. I can'r begin to compare the Yammie arranger keybeds with any of the Rolands - and I've had E09, E60 and G70.

In fact, I think there should be more arranger modules. With all the keyboard controllers out there, it would be pretty simple to match up a 25-88 note keyboard that suits your needs.

Of course, I've had and trashed a couple modules. But maybe I'd give it another try if the features and my head were in the right place.

Modules are really more hindrance to live playing versus an all in one arranger....more wires, midi,multiple steps to navigate, additional gear to carry in live playing on stage....& when you think about it is it really necessary?

Ian,

I use the Digitech VR, which unfortunately is no longer in production. Mine is a rack-mount model which is permanently mounted in my custom console, which also serves as the laptop platform and contains all of my power supplies, phantom power pack, surge protector, and it's also a lighted sign that lights the keyboard too. So, at least in my case, I'm not carrying anything additional.

Donny,

I agree that a better vocal processor and LCD display would make the S900 an outstanding keyboard, but unfortunately, as many times as these subjects have come up Yamaha never seems to read the posted comments. Consequently, we often must use workarounds to accomplish our performance goals. Eventually, some manufacturer will come up with a lightweight keyboard that has all the quality and features the majority of OMB performers are asking for. Until then, we're pretty much stuck with what we have, and of course, the workaround modifications that make us sound better.

Good Luck,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

Gary,

I assume the VR is Midi'd to your PSR-3000.

How many parts harmony?

Is there a new model you can recommend?

Ian

Gary....

I agree...workarounds......workarounds....
thats how we roll baby! So getting back on topic I can deduce from all said so far get another G70 that has every I need but is Heavy & bigger OR Mix & match with a sprinkle of Workarounds....
or just WAIT
Wow this gets harder & harder..........

Donny, why wait. The chance of you getting at least one or two other boards while waiting for ??? is so great anyway. Get the G70 - you probably already have it - and then decide whenever the ??? comes out.

This unit might be the answer for me regarding Vocal Harmony?

http://www.tc-helicon.com/Default.asp?Id=13202

http://www.tc-helicon.com/VoiceToneHarmonyM.asp


http://www.tc-helicon.com/

Heres some Vocal Harmony Demos



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 02-06-2008).]

Cassp is right, Donny...you need a good vocal harmonizer...the G70 has it...and you'll have those 76 keys and that cool piano sound for all your solo piano stuff.

Get it, baby!

Ian

No Ian.....S900 with this Yeah
http://www.tc-helicon.com/Default.asp?Id=13202

only $299.00
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/VTHarmonyM/

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 02-06-2008).]

Yeah, that's cool...and it has a foot-switch as well.

I'll pass this on to some of my clients.

Now you won't need Fran's roadies.

Ian

And, you won't need to borrow his fork lift!

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

Donny, you cracked me up with the KAZOO reference to the Yammy VH. I know the feeling; sometimes when I'm singing a ballad, the VH makes me go into a YODEL!!!

Yikes...what a piece of crap.


------------------
Al Giordano
http://www.arrangerworld.com


Tyros 2, Yamaha P-250, Korg Triton Extreme 76, Roland VK8-M, DW Collectors Series Drums, Roland SPD-S.

So when did these "new" truths reveal themselves to you? I'm not picking on you, Donny, but if they were giving out a hypocrite-of-the-year award, you'd be the hands down winner.

Is it possible that it's your ACT that you're dissatisfied with? I mean, in a really good show, how much does the effect of one keyboard have? Maybe you should check out the REAL reason you seem so constantly dissatisfied. A new keyboard won't freshen up your act if you're using it in the same old way to do the same old thing. Fresh ideas and a more polished performance will have a much bigger effect.

BTW, this is not aimed at you (or at least not JUST at you). These are my thoughts about anyone who looks at the tool and not the craftsman for a performance breakthrough. On the other hand, scratch all of the above if you just happen to be a gear junky (like me) .

chas

hey you gotta say the truth.......its purely a Gimmick at best.....wax paper wrapped around a plastic comb sounds better
how can the make a great sounding KB and include a kazoo....they should of left it out and taken that money and put the Tyros key-bed on the S900 instead.....after all we're paying for that Kazoo also right...
I'd love to be in the pre design room meetings with these genius's....

(Cue the Rolling Stones' "(I can't get no) Satisfaction)

"I can't get no satisfaction,

I can't get no satisfaction.

'cause I try and I try and I try and I try.

I can't get no, I can't get no.

When I'm drivin' in my car

And that man comes on the radio

And he's tellin' me more and more

About some useless information

Supposed to fire my imagination.

I can't get no, oh no no no.

Hey hey hey, that's what I say."

In all probability, Donny, if the G70 didn't hold your interest before, it isn't going to hold it for very long this time... The exact same reasons you dropped it before are still valid.

It isn't any lighter
It isn't voiced much better (a bit, but it is STILL mostly down to the user)
The sounds are the same
The styles are (basically) the same
The OS is still flawed (but improved since you had one)
It isn't any lighter....

chas's advice (though blunt!) is perhaps en point... Maybe, instead of changing your equipment, you could try changing your repertoire. Wholesale. Do the same thing you do with your arrangers. Toss it ALL out, and start from scratch. It will at least be a less expensive way of gaining variety in your act. Maybe not the genre (can't see you doing Timberlake covers, anyway!), but maybe you AND your audience might appreciate a change from the same old, same old (but on a different arranger).

Toss all the mp3's, too. That's GOT to be depressing... you buy a brand new arranger, and the act still sounds the same. In fact, why not toss the OMB thing altogether, for a while..? Your chops and vocal skills should find you a live band gig with little difficulty, and the fact that you are willing to drop sizable chunks of money just to TRY a new arranger for a few months shows that the money isn't all THAT important.

Me, if I am bored and restless, usually, a few gigs with some players that challenge me, or a studio project that forces me to be original is all it takes to re-charge my batteries. And I actually MAKE money on it, rather than lose it...

No, PLEASE don't get another G70, Donny. It will be uncomfortable for me to have to correct your inevitable gushing, glowing review with the sad fact that, just like everything else you have gone through in the last couple of years, the G70 isn't perfect, either...

Hahahahahah Oh Diki.....thank you for that advice but NO THANX! The only thing I might drop is the G70 off my rock & roller because of the weight its a dinosaur to transport ......but does have many incredible features I really liked.
Change my act? I think not ....let me tell you something I learned my UK friend....never toy with success...40+ years of performing music ....with many bands, & solo, I think that says volumes.......
dont fix it if it ain't broken.
Although you seem to try to be a know it all ....the smoke screen will never work here ....although at times I do appreciate your replies and if you can read in between the BS it sometimes makes alot of sense.
So where are we? I would say you do your thing and I'll do mine....I dont begrudge anyone of making a living in ANY WAY THEY WANT. The purists can kiss my butt sorry.

What!!!!!!!!!!!!! The G70 isn't PERFECT!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????

Sorry, Donny, but 'if it ain't broke, replace it' seems to be more your mantra...

Perhaps, you might try making yourself a shopping list of the features you MUST have on an arranger. Perhaps you could take a look at whatever arranger you DID have for the longest time as a jumping off place... (was that the 3k?)

Then unless any new arranger has EVERY SINGLE ONE of those 'must have' features, OS aspects, sounds, weight, whatever it is you DO consider important, just don't bother. Sure, it might be fun to tinker around (but you could do that in the store for free!), but if all your basic criteria aren't met, save yourself (and all of us you will ask for basic support) a whole bunch of remorse

All that time spent trying to pound a square peg into a round hole will be MUCH better spent on more long-term rewarding aspects of music...

I guess we all are just curious as to exactly WHAT you are looking for in an arranger... Truth may be, you don't know yourself or you might not have to try so many to find it...

Well Diki with all that said....
I'll continue my search.....because I know with patience and persistence I will eventually find what Im looking for and also....

1- pisses you off by doing so which motivates me even more.

2- all great explorers never gave up hope, & I know whats just on the horizon is gonna make me very happy

So dont worry bout me ....this here Colombus will find what he is looking for!

carry on..

Yep, Donny, you did get quite a bit of mileage out of that old 3k.

Get yourself one of those...at least the screen would be at the right angle.

You have lots of registrations and SMF for it, and since you don't do a lot of instrumentals, not having the SA voices shouldn't hurt too bad.

Then, you could bide your time, save some scratch, and wait for that "ultimate" arranger that could be out in the near future.

In your case, getting the 3k after having the S900 wouldn't really be a step back.

You could use the extra loot you save to buy Fran's roadies some cigars and some cosmetic plastic surgery.

Ian

They say that the definition of insanity is repeating the same action over and over again... all the time, expecting a different outcome.

Maybe the glass is half full, maybe it's half empty, maybe the glass is twice as large as it needs to be, maybe there is no glass...

Me, I expect no future arranger to be perfect, for Donny OR myself. I expect it will have many new features, some of which will be useful, some of which I could care less about. And it will ALWAYS have something that some other arranger has better implemented (if it has the feature at all). To expect any different is, to be kind, unrealistic. To be less kind...

INSANE

My old uncle Jim used to say, "You do what you always do....you get what you always got."

Ian......we keep trying to keep the place hopping without too much help from anyone else.....

Donny...there is a difference between hopping and limping.

I'm too lazy to do either.

So Ian, how are you???

You should try this PA800 - it is VERY powerful....

zuki

Zuki, I would love to try the PA-800, especially with all the style programming options it offers.

Unfortunately, my local dealer will not carry Korg arrangers...only their synths and digital pianos.

After my surgery, and eventual recovery, I'll be able to travel again, and hopefully try out the PA-800 and several more elusive instruments.

I'm glad you like it...obviously it's a good partner to the S900.

Ian

Donny, it's a trick of the ear & brain.
If you're continually playing your own KB you get attuned to it and while it may still sound good to great you get somewhat jaded with it and the Wow might not be so noticeable.
Then when you go to play a different KB, providing it's not a dog, it sounds by contrast WOW!

It's another version of familiarity & the grass is always greener.........

It happens with me if I play Ty2 "too much".
Ignore it for a few days,I come back and get wowed all over again.

So suggest you take a week off from your existing KB, then when you come back the enthusiasm will return.
But if it doesn't, dump it !!!!

John

John.....an excellent piece of advice.....
I would actually as a kid apply that philosophy to all my girlfriends It surely works......right now I'm in a holding pattern.....circling until I can see a place to land.......hope I see it soon

D.

Watch you don't run out of fuel, while you are circling..

Trust me, that plane will NEVER run out of gas

I always carry a parachute

I'm waiting patiently...but I can tell you this..my next TOTL arranger will be either a Roland or Yamaha

O-Ohhh! - DNJ - I thought you were talking girlfriends

John

Donnie,
What about this space-age beauty.
Don't worry about the weight, you'll have roadies/groupies everywhere you go with this baby.

what happend to Korg?and why?

Stick with dem Yammies--you can't go wrong.

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

I'm not an expert on vocal harmony--that's why I use an external harmonizer. However, Dan, also known as Big741 on the PSR-tutorial forum, has posted some incredible MP3 files using his vocal harmony settings and the Yamaha vocal processor. They're outstanding to say the least. His settings are as follows:

Things to help tracking (some, if not all of this has already been said):

- use a GOOD QUALITY MICROPHONE. Using a $50.00 Radio Shack special may
disappoint you. Also make sure the trim is set appropriately (on the back of
the keyboard) - green mic level light flashing is good, red or solid green,
not so good. Try to keep it out of the speaker wash, if possible. The less
noise and the more vocal that go into the mic, the better. If you are
recording, consider using a pair of headphones to totally eliminate this.
- with my setup, I've found that dialing out 450 Hz (approx -5 to -10 db)
will help with tracking. The EQ will vary depending on your mic, speakers,
etc. I have found that the VH likes a little less bass in order to track
properly. Experimentation will reveal if this works for you or not.
- Try using the vocal compressor if you aren't already. I have mine set to
Threshold= -20, Ratio 7, Output 91. These settings may have come from Gary
(thanks Gary). Be careful when playing with the compressor, as too much
compression may lead to some annoying feedback (howling).
- Try to sing in tune and pay attention to your dynamics (changes in
volume). If you're not in tune, how do you expect the VH to be ? Dynamics
should be as smooth and gradual as possible.

Some of my favorite VH types:

StdDuet, MenChoir, MixAcapChoir, and Mixed Choir. Without a doubt, StdDuet
is my favorite. Maybe its because I spent a few years singing 2 part harmony
in bands. All of these VH types have been edited to remove the vibrato.
Removing the vibrato gives a much more natural sound (to my ear), and allows
you to bring the VH level up some, as it sounds a little less like a
yodeling convention. To edit the VH parameters, do the following:

1. Press the MIC SETTING/VOCAL HARMONY button
2. Select VOCAL HARMONY TYPE (button H)
3. Select the harmony type you want
4. Select EDIT at the bottom
5. Press the PARAMETER scroll down button to highlight VIBRATO DEPTH
6. Decrease the number for less vibrato and increase it for more
7. Do the same for VIBRATO RATE and VIBRATO DELAY ( I typically use VIB
DEPTH=16, VIB RATE=12, and VIB DELAY=0)
8. Select SAVE (button I) and save your new settings or else they won't be
there after a power down

One last tip from another post of mine which works well when recording:

If you sing a note or sustained phrase with the VH off and switch it on
while sustaining the note or phrase, there is a noticeable dropout as the VH
switches on or off. Kinda like laaa "hic" laaa. This is not really
acceptable, especially when recording. When I do my vocal track(s) I use the
same setup as before: select your VH type, pick any style, and turn the
style volume to zero. What I used to do was to hit the sync start button,
play my chord, (hitting the sync start allows you to take your left hand off
of the keyboard - ie: you don't have to hold the chord down for the VH to
work) and start singing, using the foot pedal to turn the VH on and off and
getting the resultant dropout. What I do now is to not select sync start,
turn the VH on at the beginning of the song and only play chords when I want
the VH to sing. Because the VH is already on, when you play a chord you get
a seamless transition without any dropout. It sounds complicated, but only
because I haven't described it all that well...

Hope this helps someone

dan

------------------
Travlin' Easy

Hi Donny,
wouldn't you miss having pads??

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dnj:
[B]Ya know this might sound weird....but there ain't much left for me to try out there regarding arrangers ...somehow the Roland G70 sticks in my mind.

No, it IS NOT ! One huge reason I love the harmonizer in the PA800. Works like it should ! NO DROPOUTS!

Rikki, I did miss them on the G70....but on the S900 I use a few Multipads.....& I also have many custom recorded pads to use when needed....name of the game is "workarounds"

I'm pretty much of a purist, Donny. Thanks, but no thanks!

R