Donny, sadly I agree with you. Yamaha just doesn't get it for the pro/semi-pro/serious home enthusiast. Are these features really so out of reach cost wise? Why do they make their workstations in Lite Version and in 3 flavors; 61, 76, 88, but not their arrangers?

Puzzling?






------------------
Al Giordano
http://www.arrangerworld.com


Tyros 2, Yamaha P-250, Korg Triton Extreme 76, Roland VK8-M, DW Collectors Series Drums, Roland SPD-S.

I disagree Al,

We don't need harmonizers, mp3 players, and xlr inputs on our keyboards. If I you want harmony, buy a helicon; if you want an mp3 player buy an iPod. It becomes a big problem when a keyboard tries to be everything, because in the end you're left with "a master of none".

Chony

I would like to see a library of great sample voices.

I would like the frickin' styles to be normalized so I can use user voices and Reg Mem on any style without having to futz with the balance all the time.

How about being able to use the Music Finder with the HD.

How about making the next T model the size of a PSR3000, which I believe could be done, but I believe Yamaha feels that it must be bigger and look different for aesthetic purposes so they can get their $3K.

Also, I'll take mine in black.

Other than that, I think I would be hard pressed to go to another brand, in that I'd lose way too many things that I don't hear happening on the others.

Scott

Zonies: All this discussion about “up to par”? Here we go with the inference that Tyros 2 is now “sub-par”. So what exactly is PAR? Is that a 55 pound hernia starter with lots of sounds that aren’t “up to par” with the SA voices? It’s been said many times on this board before…. What really matters is what each INDIVIDUAL wants or will accept in his keyboard.

The mere fact that a dozen or more people on here have bought G70’s and dropped them (some quickly) tells me something about the G70 is not “PAR”. The fact that folks have had the PA800 and dropped them tells me that something about that board is not “PAR”. So in my mind for this discussion “PAR” SHOULD be an acronym for “personally acceptable requisition”, that is, it’s “PAR” if to me, it is worth the investment of MY money.

Plenty of folks on this board have bought T2’s and they find them “quite PAR”, that is, they are glad they purchased them and don’t feel a need to move to some other board. I wish my Odyssey had an in-dash GPS (it doesn’t). So even though I might wish it had that and some other helpful features (which many new vehicles have), the van is still very reliable and it meets my needs perfectly. So it’s PAR to me.

To their credit, Yamaha is apparently asking owners if they would be interested in voice and style upgrades. If they were to include the Helicon harmonizer, that would likely drive up the price, and many users who don’t sing may not want to spend the extra dollars for these features. As an alternative, the singers who want harmony can buy the foot switch harmonizer for a couple hundred.

I don’t think the Tyros product is sub-par. And from what I’ve read on here, I haven’t seen a single keyboard that is universally agreed to be “PAR” as defined in the traditional sense.

R/I

UP TO PAR will require that Yamaha or any manufacturers LISTENS To Real Players that use theses KBs every day in the trenches & LISTEN to their needs Before they design them & just rehash old parts & inventory just to make a buck...leaving things out so they can just string along their customers for the next greatest debacle. Its all about $$$ first & foremost

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 02-11-2008).]

I would hope all my competitors..decide to play Tyros 2 or any Yamaha keyboards..

This is one guy that kept the G70...

Key feel, Drums, Piano, Organ, Scat ..Harmonizer.....I could go on and on...There is just no comparison...G70 RULES..of course you have to be able to lift 45 pounds..

Donny - exactly my point. The field is full of manufacturers who need to "listen". I haven't seen the perfect board come out of the production line yet. There are a lot of users crying out for a sympathetic ear. Here's a sampling of the "state of the art"... just taken from the last 10-12 posts on this board:

-----------------------

"I'm not really sure why the g70 lacks in the motown/r&b/soul styles. I wasn't finding it and I really did look." (Is that PAR?)

"I have spent a week going through all the styles on my PA1X trying to match up styles with my gig sets and find that not many of the styles on my hard drive are a very good match." (Is that PAR?)

"It's amazing they dont have an extensive style library to back up there wonderful feature packed arrangers....its like running a car with just a gallon of gas....ya cant go to too far." (Is that PAR?)

"It sure would have made my life easier had PSR3000. It looks like even the ones I am finding that might work will need at least one or two of the STS voices changed. Lot of work when you pay this much for a arranger." (Is that PAR?)

"The [PA800] variations seem OK and graduate nicely, but the fills in many styles are just plain awful - major glitches." (Is that PAR?)

"The [PA800] variations worked perfectly for the first 4 bars ( I think it was the Bequine style), by the time it got to the 8th bar it no longer suited, so I just chopped off the last few bars." (Is that PAR?)

"For some bizzare reason , the default Korg setting for fills & breaks is "immediate."
In short, the fill sometimes starts in the middle of the bar, making it glitch.
If you want to get rid of it & have the fill start at the beginning of the next bar, nice & smooth, you'll have to go into style edit." (Is that PAR?)

---------
Yamaha and all the rest of the developers should start listening and not stop. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to decipher the posts on this board alone. I have begun to believe they don't want the perfect board. Because people would buy them and never upgrade. I'm sure they are fully capable of meeting the "dream list". But if they piece it out they can sell a new keyboard every 18 months for the next 10 years. I just wanted to make sure that if there was a "PAR", we all agreed that it was indeed the target to shoot for.

R/I

I think only the Korg PA2X, can give the G70 a run for it's money....But because of the Korg OS..it would still be second best..TO ME...

"Yamaha and all the rest of the developers should start listening and not stop. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to decipher the posts on this board alone. I have begun to believe they don't want the perfect board. Because people would buy them and never upgrade. I'm sure they are fully capable of meeting the "dream list". But if they piece it out they can sell a new keyboard every 18 months for the next 10 years. I just wanted to make sure that if there was a "PAR", we all agreed that it was indeed the target to shoot for.
R/I"

Now your getting the picture You can only hope for something YOU CAN TOLERATE playing FOR YOUR NEEDS.....what ever workarounds is least prohibitive to your style of playing & keep going...
"perfect" will never exist.

In western music playing arranger world , Yamaha (arrangers)will outsell Roland and Korg just because of the SIMPLER (yet effective)styles,OS and 3 rd party support.Yes they have not as great drums and bass,VH and hardware.(Yammy's PSR A /O models are also doing well for ease of use despite complaints about their hardware and overall sound).

Has been,most likely will continue.

Unless the following happens
1.Korg fires the style team and put new people who understands how to make a simpler style without over orchestration,how to a program a fill and why we need more fills than 2+1.
2.Korg replaces some folks form OS team - ask the design team serious questions like this- why do they have to carry old PA80 format where you need to press A/B button to change sounds (Piano to Sax) or styles (8 beats to Bossa).A serious draw back where you need to change sound or style in arranger mode(you have to see the lights).


In non western music playing arranger worldmarket is also huge (more than 65 % of total pro arranger sales) -Arabic,turkish,iranian and other mid east market and also former USSR republics -armanian,azerbycan etc)-Ketron,Korg(major players) and Roland(smaller market now,was better in mid and late 90's) will continue to rule:Because of the sampler (Korg) which can load ethnic solos sounds/percussion and pro 3 rd party styles out there for last 15 years .Since Yam is not making what they need(meaning Tyros like oriental arranger with VH,not even like s900 like arranger with VH, only lower mid models like S700 level),Korg is selling well(that makes Korg think they don't have to change anything since the market is bigger than westen music market -we are talking about pro arrangers -not PSR 295).


Korg should have learned thier lesson from Psr 2k-PA80 days.PA 80 great sounds,limited VH,bad OS - Vs - PSr2k -Ease of use,Better display and multi pads (Yes multi pads that play loops are new for Korg - started in Pa1xs with OS update).PA 800 is a great tool but they still need to fix style/fill/layout department.they have better seq,sound editing plus others -but again - missing the point of as arranger------STYLES and FILLS that are to be used to make a backing song to sing/play along with!!


By the way PA2x wins on keys department.YES ,better than G70!(which I loved).G70 was better than PA1x pro.



[This message has been edited by jamman (edited 02-11-2008).]