After 8 years of Yamaha keyboards, I have finally broke ranks and purchased a new Pa2xpro. Wow, really nice keyboard.

I just went to the music store to check out some keyboards and low and behold, they had the Pa2xpro there. After spending some quality time with it, I bought their last one.

I'm so confused by the operating system. I actually have to READ the manual! Yikes!!!!

This is so much fun though.


------------------
Al Giordano
http://www.arrangerworld.com


Tyros 2, Yamaha P-250, Korg Triton Extreme 76, Roland VK8-M, DW Collectors Series Drums, Roland SPD-S.

Congrats Al

Hi Al,
congratulations. Wow, that's a surprise.
If I can be of any help. Let me know.
The operating system is basically the same as on the PA800 ( as far as I'm aware).
Yes, unfortunately you probably will have to do a bit of manual reading,eek.
Don't forget there's also a set of dvd's available from the Korg site.
I don't know what they're like, as personally I'm a manual reader.

best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kbrkr:
[B]

Al, Way to go!! Congratulations!! Rikki is the master when it comes to Korg here at this forum. She certainly can be a big help to you.

Al it is different, but knowing your background you'll be navigating it in no time. I think you'll like the touch screen and once you start building your Songbook, you'll like it even more. You may want to order the DVD package it certainly would be of help

I've only had mine for just over a week and I still have plenty to learn. It's pretty much the same as basic board as the PA800 with some additions. Good luck with it.

[This message has been edited by Stephenm52 (edited 02-18-2008).]

Al.....Good luck with your new KB....

You have mail....have fun!!

Thanks Guys and Gals!!!

This is really a beautiful keyboard!

I can't believe it's just 2 inches shorter than the Tyros 2, but has 76 keys and the Joystick! How did Korg do that?

Ugh, the learning curve!!! I may have to take a vacation day just to stay home and explore this monster! LOL


------------------
Al Giordano
http://www.arrangerworld.com


Tyros 2, Yamaha P-250, Korg Triton Extreme 76, Roland VK8-M, DW Collectors Series Drums, Roland SPD-S.

Hi Al

Congrats on the new board.

You mention the Korg is 2 inches shorter than the Tyros 2.

I have checked online specs that shows:

PA2X 47.52 x 14.37 x 5.35

Tyros2 44.8 x 17.7 x 5.4

This shows the Korg is about 3 inches longer. Am wondering which are the correct specs

Best
Scott
http://ScottLMusic.com

Congrats!

A friend is lending me his Pa1x for the next month while he goes on vacation. I will get to compare the Korg side by side with the Yamaha. Are there any substantial differences in the sounds of the 1x and 2x.

Chony

http://www.createsongstyles.com/index.php?option=com_musicbox&task=view&Itemid=55&catid=32&id=35


Here is some Pa2x demos by our very own SZ member Andrea.....enjoy

Al,

Congratulations. Isn't it great that we get to be big kids the rest of our lives

Enjoy!

Hi Chony,
not sure whether the PA1X has the new Guitar Mode function.
Makes guitar style tracks sound more realistic. Also added additional guitar sounds to the PA800.

You'll really need to talk to a PA1X owner or better still an ex PA1x owner who now owns a PA2X.

best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by chony:
[B]Congrats!

The new OS for PA1X has Guitar Mode added, and some samples (I think) to go along with it, but Korg admit that the doubled polyphony is a big help in using it, AND being able to play a bunch over the top. If it proves to be a problem, you could always record just the backing to MP3, and then play on top... Best of both worlds!

Al,
congratulations on your new purchase: I am sure that you will love it!

My experience so far has been that, unlike the Tyros (but like the G-70), the PA2X Pro leaves the end user a lot of freedom to tweak it to his/her liking. Translated in plain words, it's like the folks at Yamaha have thought: "This keyboard is intended for this kind of users, who like these features and don't care for the rest. So let's give 'em what they want." And it's true that they have done all the homework before and the result is that you have a keyboard that out of the box sounds good or very good to 90% of buyers; the negative side, on the other hand, is that once you start dwelving in it, you discover how little choices you have to tweak it in depth and make it "yours".

From this point of view the PA2X Pro is a tweaker's heaven; it's true that the folks at Korg apparently haven't done a good preliminary job like the folks at Yamaha, but it's true that in the past they have always updated their OS's on a regular basis (see the PA1X Pro), taking in account most users' requests. The end result is a product that is less subject to obsolescence (because you can import new styles and sample or import new sounds, including those from its concurrents, Tyros 2 or G-70 ) and is much more customizable.

Final consideration: one thing that bothers me when I record something with my Tyros 2 is the risk to sound like countless of other Tyros owners, because the overall sound of the keyboard is the same, so you have to play your a§§ off to sound different, and also come up with special ideas about the arrangement, etc.
This risk of "sounding the same" is not so pronounced with Roland or Korg, because you can customize and personalize even the way the keyboard sounds before you actually start playing notes.

Hope that this makes sense.

P.S.: Al, have you tried to load the set called "Real Drums?"

Thanks Diki,
the styles that now use guitar mode tracks on the PA800 ( after the 1.51/1.50 uppgrade ) sound better than they did originally.

So I thought I'd mention it, just in case.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Diki:
[B]The new OS for PA1X has Guitar Mode added, and some samples (I think) to go along with it,

"The new OS for PA1X has Guitar Mode added, and some samples (I think) to go along with it, but Korg admit that the doubled polyphony is a big help in using it, AND being able to play a bunch over the top. If it proves to be a problem, you could always record just the backing to MP3, and then play on top... Best of both worlds!"

I dont think thats correct Dikki. They planned to adapt the guitar mode for the last and probably final OS for the PA1X but this hasnt materialsed yet. WE are still awaiting the final OS update. I guess Korg have their hands tied up at the moment in trying to stabilise the OS and pssobly hardware issues (bad Ram) with the PA800/PA2X.

Incidentally guitar mode has nothing to do with the guitar programming in the PA1x/Pa2x factory styles. The programming is identical.

The difference is that guitar mode can be used for owners of the PA2X to programme their own styles with realistic up and down strokes and scrapes.

The factory styles on the other hand are programmed using real musicians with their guitars midi'd up to respond to the RX technology to translate those scraps,plucks slides etc in real time sound.Guitar mode cannot duplicate this realism but it does get us closer to simulating the real action of a guitar.

Scott,

I just eye-balled the width. The bottom line is that there is only the width of 3 keys separating a 61 key keyboard with a 76 key keyboard?

Al






------------------
Al Giordano
http://www.arrangerworld.com


Tyros 2, Yamaha P-250, Korg Triton Extreme 76, Roland VK8-M, DW Collectors Series Drums, Roland SPD-S.

Thanks Dreamer,

BTW, I listened to your song samples on Createsongstyles and they are terrific! Very nice.

I have not loaded those RealDrums as yet off the CD, but I did notice they were there and quite intrigued by what they offer. I'm still trying to figure out why my microphone goes silent without the Harmony button pressed???? I actually have to power down and back up to restore the Microphone. I'm sure some performance setting is either muting the MIC or lowering the volume to zero (0).

The other issue I'm having going from the Yamaha to the Korg is in selecting voice parts. On the T2, it's easy as pressing the voice part button, then just selecting a sound to go with it. with the Korg you have to make sure your on the home page on the screen, press the voice part, then Un-Mute it, then press sound source, then select the sound patch you want. Maybe i'm not doing it correctly, but that seems more difficult than on the Tyros 2.

Al

Andrea.....that was a dead on summation for sure....great post that explains it all in a nut shell.

Al,
thank you for listening to my demo's.

The Real Drums are a special drumset that goes with a bank of tailored styles that have a "special" groove. I have a feeling that you will like them. I haven't found anything similar in any other arranger, Ketron included. A little over the edge maybe but... what the heck!

Hi Spalding,
in that case , there must be a difference between the PA800 & the PA1X/PA2X guitar programming.
There's over a dozen reprogrammed styles with the 1.50 resources upgrade & some of the guitar tracks must have been programmed using guitar mode. Just as an example
Guitar Bossa Variation 1 , Instrument track 2.
I' m not a guitarist but I doubt it could have been recorded in realtime?

I did an event list edit of the track a while back to try & figure out how guitar mode worked. The notes in the track have nothing to do with playing chords as such.
As you mentioned , they trigger different types of events, strums plucks etc.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Spalding 4:
[B
Incidentally guitar mode has nothing to do with the guitar programming in the PA1x/Pa2x factory styles. The programming is identical.

Hi Dreamer,
well said.

Actually still haven't gotten round to loading the Real Drums, but after what you just mentioned, I'll have to give them a try.

best wishes
Rikki


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dreamer:
[B]

OK, my bad about Guitar Mode for PA1X. I thought I read somewhere they had updated the OS (or maybe they just announced they were GOING to...).

From what I gather, I was under the impression that Guitar Mode in Style Mode play was possible on the PA800/2X... The main difference from a style that was MADE using Guitar Mode is that, if you use Guitar Mode and Style Mode (at the same time), the Guitar Mode automatically maps your chords to authentic guitar voicings, whereas once it becomes a regular Style track, the regular rules for chord remapping and transposition apply, leading to a loss of the correct fingering and inversion...

Can someone confirm or correct me? I have been giving Roland a hard time for not integrating the two the way I THOUGHT Korg has done... Please don't tell me I've been abusing them erroneously!

Hi Diki,
as far as I'm aware it's used for programming guitar tracks from scratch & done in steptime. You get different strum types.
These strum types are programmed in the lowest octave. The C gives a full down strum D a full up strum F full down mute body etc etc

The next octave up records single strings.

Next Octave up triggers the RX noises.

The chord types are done via velocity ie a velocity of 1 gives a major chord,
velocity 2 maj6th , right up to a velocity of 24 which is a diminished 7th.

I had a breif play around with it a while back, it doesn't appear to work the way you think it does.

Hopefully someone can clear this up.

best wishes
Rikki

Hi rikkisbears . I am not sure. It would not make any sense to use guitar mode in a factory made style as it would (and could never) sound as natural as a real player. Guitar mode is used in an attempt to simulate a real player, not replace one. The factory styles for the most part use real musicians playing real instruments so that every strum, every slide every note bend and every muted or ghost note sounds accurate. No matter how good you could reacreate that sound using guitar mode it taake 10 times as long to do it and would not make sense to program a factory sound that way especially as Korg had hired professional musicians to do the other factory styles.They may have added additional events to beef up the sound but i would be extremely surprised if Korg or anyone for that matter used guitar mode over using a real guitarist musician.

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 02-19-2008).]

Hi Spalding ,
they haven't neccesarily replaced all the guitar tracks in a style with a "guitar mode" style track ie guitar bossa has 2 maybe 3 guitar tracks, only one uses guitar mode.
I'll see if maybe I can save a midifile of the original guitar track from the style, you'll see what I mean.

I'm wondering if the 1.51 upgrade which gave us guitar mode may also be the reason why EMC XT currently doesn't appear to be able to read my PA800 styles.

I remember in one of the other posts you mentioned PA1X can read PA800 styles, can it definately read styles that have been created on a PA800 with the 1.51 operating system?? I had a couple of members on one of the forums write that my styles wouldn't load into their PA1X. Maybe they had a wrong operating system running. I couldn't help as I don't know how the PA1X upgrades versions work.

best wishes
Rikki

Definately the PA1X can play PA 800 styles that were done pre version 1.02 and it does so well. There are more effects in the PA800 and so in some cases the wrong effects are in the styles but absolutelty for the majority of styles they work very well on the PA1X

Paolo Tramannoni who is a product manager for Korg Italy said

'With Pa1X, you can load Styles made with Pa800 v. 1.0x. You cannot load Styles made (or edited) with Pa800 v.1.5 or Pa2X (any version).
The new Style format includes a Guitar track, that would make no sense in Pa1X. Therefore, these Styles cannot be loaded.

Best regards,
Paolo'

And here is a link to all the styles on the Pa800 pre 1.02 version. I have them all on my PA1X hardrive
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=30370

Here's what I THOUGHT was going on. Would someone who DOES kindly correct me...

When you have a track that IS in Guitar Mode in a style, you still just play a regular chord in your left hand, correct? Then, all the strum notes, velocities, RX notes etc. are played by the style track (not by you in realtime), and the chord you played is remapped to a chord that is guitar correct....

Is that about it? You mention in one post that there ARE some styles with tracks (maybe only one per style?) that remain in Guitar Mode, while other guitar Parts are in normal...

Here's the problem, or at least the difference, as I see it. Once again, please correct me if I'm wrong...

The difference between a regular track, even though it has been recorded using a real guitarist with a MIDI guitar, and a Guitar Track, comes about when you play a chord that the guitarist DIDN'T PLAY. You have separate tracks for maj, min, 7th and diminished (that right?) on the Korg. So if you play those chords, you WILL get a correct guitar chord for those choices. BUT... if you play a chord that there is no EXACT recording of it, the NTT (note transposition table) will make the chord play the chord that you played, but NOT voiced the way a guitarist would.

On the other hand... in Guitar Mode, it will ALWAYS remap whatever whacked out chord you play to something that a guitarist WOULD play. Big difference, IMO...

For those that work with guitarists, or play one themselves, this difference between chord shapes is critical. There is something completely different between how a regular track does a Cm7+5 to an Fm7 than the Guitar Mode plays it. Guitarists don't whizz up and down the neck playing barré chords all night long. They play different shaped chords, depending on where they are. THIS is Guitar Mode's revolutionary change.

So, does anyone have a detailed description of how the Korg DOES use Guitar Mode in live play, or did I pretty much get it right?

BTW, I was somewhat confused by spalding's post here...

" It would not make any sense to use guitar mode in a factory made style as it would (and could never) sound as natural as a real player. Guitar mode is used in an attempt to simulate a real player, not replace one."

If simulating a real instrument is NOT trying to replace one, what is?

I think the problem comes from relying on manufacturer hype, rather than your own ears. Sure, they used real guitar players to make the style in the first place. But the minute you start playing different chords than THEY laid down, you are no longer listening to a live player. You are listening to a machine interpret the live player's playing! And doing a pretty poor job of it!

Guitar Mode is the beginning of the future... Parts that use genuine player techniques and chord re-voicing techniques to interpret your chord choices into genuine performances that a real guitarist WOULD play. On the Roland implementation of this feature, WHERE you play in the Chord Recognition Area determines the inversion of what is strummed. So play a C chord, then an F chord without moving your hand, and the guitar part plays a C chord, then an F chord without moving the chord. In other words, instead of a simple barré jump, it plays the F chord the way a guitarist would. As a different SHAPE, not the same shape higher or lower on the neck (which is what regular tracks do).

Can the Korg do this? It's amazing when you hear it (if you already know what a guitarist WOULD play)...


Now imagine piano parts that do the same thing (change inversion, rather than block transpose chords), horns that change inversion to keep voice leading correctly, strings, you name it... We're on the brink here folks, and it doesn't involve audio loops. It just takes the horsepower to model these more complex behaviors on to the sounds that use them.

Guitar Mode is (hopefully) just the beginning....

Hi Diki
Here is a short section from OAA manual.
http://www.4shared.com/file/38438397/b8ff4b6b/Chords.html

Is this what you mean by using inversions for accuracy?
The text is converted from German using an online translator
Manual relates to version R17; however the latest version is R28 so there may be some changes to the details

Bill

Hi Spalding ,
thank you for the link, that is awesome.
Be interesting to see if my Styleworks XT can read these.

I went to the extent of loading in the original 1.01 operating system yesterday into my PA800 & saved a couple of styles. Still didn't work in Styleworks, but my Stylfactory software was at least able to read them. Only problem was my user created styles which were done on 1.51 operating system , wouldn't work, s I'm back to 1.51.

You've saved me a heap of work, as I was going to have to copy all the styles as 1.01 if I wanted to use them in my Stylefactory software. Much appreciated.

best wishes
Rikki

p.s. looks like I may have to start reading PA1X forum as well as the PA800 forum. haahaa

Hi Diki,
I played around with it last year when I first upgraded to 1.51.

I don't think it works the way you think.

Apologies Spalding it is recorded in realtime, but not in the same way as one would record a guitar track in my Ketron or PSR.

A single note in the lowest octave of the PA800 ( without transposition) ie D will will create a full Up strum, C will create a full down strum etc etc.

The next octave up the C note on the keyboard represents the 6th string of a guitar, the D note represents the 5th string, the E note represents the 4th string etc etc (these can be used for playing single strings for arpeggio's)
the g# gives you a power chord, the F# mutes all the strings etc etc

Next couple of octaves or so give you the rx noises, plucks , fret noises etc

Also mentions something about selecting a capo??


It's not for revoicing a chord ieto turn a c3e3g3c4 chord into a voicing that a guitar would normally play..

The style I mentioned literally has bass, drum, percussion, nylon guitar track 1, brazillian guitar track 3, & REAL NYLON GUITAR on track 2 which has been assigned to Guitar Mode Track.

It's only used for style parts.

The 1.02-1.51 manual explains how it works
http://www.korgpa.com/pa_root/en/products/pa800_man.html?en

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Diki:
[B]

I guess I'm going to have to play one to find out for sure... It sure sounds pretty whacked out to me (unintuitive, if you like ).

The way the Roland's work is that you hold down a chord with your left hand (any chord) and you have about two octaves or so to play it higher or lower (inversions and/or octaves). The arranger remaps that chord to a voicing that the guitarist would play, in that section of the neck. Play another chord (of the same type) in the same area, get another accurate guitar voicing, not just a barré jump.

Different notes in the RH area do the strumming types (but first six notes with the actual single notes on it, for fingerpicking), up down hard soft, rakes, mutes, down-strokes on note down, up-stroke on release (VERY musical!), etc., but the squeaks are triggered by moving the chord, no need to play them! Taps and knocks round out the range.

But here's where they messed up... Because of Roland's OS (no-one knows if it is stubbornness or a patent issue), there is always ONE non-transposing track (the Drum Track). So you can't put the note pattern that your RH would have played to get a particular strum and rhythm pattern into the Style Part, to trigger the Guitar Mode chord...! (Or as you change chords, the Track will transpose, and those strum TYPE notes will get shifted around to something totally different)

So it appears on the one hand, the Roland system seems FAR more 'live play' orientated... you actually CAN play some pretty decent sounding guitar strumming and picking in realtime on the keyboard, and it all be guitar accurate, the Korg system, while seeming impossible to play 'live' to create the patterns, once you have done it offline, you CAN use the part as a trigger track for the Guitar mode in Style Play.

It seems like we need a mind-meld between the two systems... Roland's ease of performing the strums in the first place, and Korg's ability to take that performance as a Style Track to trigger it automatically.

Typical! Two half-assed solutions instead of one integrated one

With any luck, these aren't patented systems, and one of the two will finish the job.... Any takers?

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 02-20-2008).]

Bill.... yes, some of that seems to make sense.

The thing is, although it's nice to have these as an option, I envision simply choosing the sound as an automatic map to the appropriate NTT, and also the ability to automatically figure out if a part is a single line (where you want the line preserved) or a chord part (where you want voice leading to make the chord changes more smooth. And preferably, both in the same part!

Some kind of background scan for this ought to be possible. As we all know, having endless possibilities is great for the tweak-heads amongst us, but even better is the machine taking care of all this in the background.

It's kind of like the T2/MotifXS SA controversy... The MotifXS players, despite having access to the SA nuts and bolts of control, actually PREFER the T2 versions of the sounds, where the SA is uneditable, but done right in the first place!

After all, what most of us want to do is simply concentrate on the chord input, and playing a great lead and comp. We don't want to have to worry about HOW the guitar part becomes something that amazes us... we don't want to have to think about how to get the auto Rhodes part to voice-lead smoothly. We just want the machine to do it!

I think the technology is there, now. It only requires the manufacturers to halt working on turning the arranger into a DAW (if we need one of those, most of us already got one!), and get back to concentrating on making a better ARRANGER.

Excuse me for wanting that!

I'm new to this forum.... just curious to know if CD-RW drive is pre-installed in PA2Xpro... ( I found the following info in a well-known dealer's website...." The MP3 encoder and CD-RW drive are pre-installed on he Pa2x Pro for even more flexibility, giving you the ability to create, shape, perform, and complete finished versions of your songs in one unit." )

Parsen,

The Pa2xpro does have MP3 encoder built in, but NOT he CD-Rom. However, with 3 usb 2.0 ports, it's easy to add on an external CD-ROM drive.

Al

------------------
Al Giordano
http://www.arrangerworld.com


Tyros 2, Korg Pa2xpro, Roland VK8-M, DW Collectors Series Drums, Roland SPD-S.

thanks Kbrkr. ( wonder why they post such an info. )

There will be an update in a few days for the Pa2xpro and PA800. I'm hoping it's more than just bug fixes and will includes new features.

Hi Greenkid,
is there going to be for the PA800 as well as for the PA2X??
I vaguely remember reading something up about an update for the pa2x.
Great if there's a new one for both.

best wishes
Rikki

From Korg Italy/Paolo Tramannoni
on Feb 21st. He's talking about Pa2x & PA800.

Rob,

I got them. Some have already been fixed in the new OS (due in a few days). Some others (unnoticed until now) are for the following relase.

Paolo

http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=32194

Hi Greenkidd,
thank you. It's always handy to get an update,.

best wishes
rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by greenkidd:
[B]