http://www.ketron.it/musikmesse2008/Video/Robert_1_0001.wmv

This sounds incredible, I hope it really does do this.

I'm very excited about this keyboard, the first sale is to me!!!

Ive watched it...but still have no idea what Audya is all about...I Hope they are going to explain in a better way what features are doing what....instead of just playing some rock song.

Sounds fantastic. As I understand it these styles use real recorded audio loops for the guitar sound, but I wonder how many of these audio loops are actually included in the Audya. If there is only a limited number of them, you will soon tire hearing the same audio loops over and over again. Traditional midi programming - or the Guitar Mode in the Korg series - gives much more room for variation which in the end can be better than an ultra realistic sound.

Kind regards,
Tommy

[This message has been edited by TommyF (edited 03-12-2008).]

I agree completely, hopefully Ketron is thinking the same thing.

If they continue on with the SD1, they most likely will have a standard arranger setup also. I hope it's not just a glorified midjay/sd1

I think the whole concept of audya, is the ability to incorporate loops from any sample library and have those samples, respond to chord changes in real time.

Please stand by for a Diki slam .....

Dan
you just stole my THOUGHT...
after Diki slam... ( also Diki know's really well how the audio arranger must working..he is my teacher..)i will reply here too...


[This message has been edited by LIONSTRACS (edited 03-12-2008).]

Ah ... we are. The redundancy is limited by the following:-
* Due to the manipulation of audio samples, what you hear when you play a "C" chord varies from what you hear when you play an "A" chord (yes, both MAJORS), not to mention the variations in minors, 7ths ..etc
* The audio is NOT limited to guitar but other instruments as well (depending on the style).
* Due to AI, the style parts ALWAYS play within the correct range of the actual instrument - regardless of the chord played.

* More to follow ... of for dinner in Frankfurt ... getting late here. Check the website (www.ketron.it) for the new uploads - I hope I got them right this time?

Thanks AJ. Bring an Audya back with you for the Shreveport Jam!
DonM

What you call a 'slam', I simply call a response to the hype..

No-one has yet made any attempt to clarify about the range of chords, extensions and inversions that the audio loops are going to provide, or whether they will be able to match the range that NTTs or Guitar Modes can provide. The silence is curious, but with the soon to come release (any announced release date, or is it STILL wait and see?), we will al get the unvarnished truth.

There may indeed be many who are less concerned that the choice of chords available may be limited, in favor of the realism of the few that ARE, but I don't think I'll be one of them...

Maybe it's time for Ketron to release some more pertinent information... These loop libraries we are going to be able to import for ourselves, for instance...

Will the Audya read Acidized or REX loops, along with their playing data, or is it up to the user to laboriously slice and dice the vast number that a decent guitar loop library provides? This is a pretty herculean task, and the fact that few exist that aren't already sliced for computer formats attests to just how difficult and mind-numbingly boring this task may be.

It's one thing to have the ability to do something, but just as the T2 sampler shows, if you make the thing proprietary, and cut the user off from most third-party content without a VAST amount of work, few will use it...

I don't believe I am 'slamming' the Audya... I would simply like some unvarnished information about what is the main selling point of this keyboard. Enough with the hype! Now let's hear the details...

Should the folks at Ketron have taken these things into account, I for one will be VERY interested in one, but I need to hear a little bit more than the simplistic accounts so far before I can see this as anything more than an easily overused gimmick.

Let us look at a few scenarios...

How does the Audya deal with playing a loop SLOWER than it was originally recorded? Does it automatically time-stretch the samples, to cover the gap between slices once they are moved apart (speeding up a sliced loop is a piece of cake compared to slowing it down)?

Is there any automatic transient detection to help with slicing rhythmic material, or is it all done by hand?

Will it import Acid, REX and Apple Loops format pre-sliced libraries?

How many chord types and extensions will it recognize, and allow triggering of different loops?

Questions like this need detailed answers, before the promise of this technology is fully realized. Otherwise, it remains a proprietary system, like the 'Live Drums' that already exist in Ketron arrangers we now have, and let's face it, hasn't exactly unseated the Big 3 in market dominance. While Yamaha's Mega Voice technology may not be QUITE as realistic for guitar parts as loops, they are FAR easier to create, edit, and use for ANY chord, ANY guitar sound (at least, Mega ones).

Maybe ANY skepticism is considered a 'slam' by those that wish upon a star that this keyboard fulfills their dreams. Me, my eyes are wide open, and I would like to see what is so far hidden...

With some updated sounds and a new styles, I'm happy that it has a usb connection, I'm sure they looked at the competition too, they had plenty of time do that, (7 years atleast)

When I first saw and heard the video, Music labs Real Guitar http://www.musiclab.com/products/realgtr_info.htm popped straight into my head, so its possible that they are not using audio loops in the usual sense, but are trying to infer that they are.
Just an impression I got

Bill

Is it gonna be considered "FAKING" Even More to the audience using Mp3's/Loops/Riffs & what have you besides Styles/SMF incorporated altogether....to the audience & when does it ever end? Its obvious that many musicians turn their nose at arrangers, why? I dont know.......pretty soon who needs us to play at all?
Will some type of Robotic DJ's rule the Music entertainment World?



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-13-2008).]

It's pretty much left to changing with the times.

I'm sure we all remember the first time a musician heard someone playing an arranger keyboard and thought the same thing.

It comes down to, we are entertainers, some of us are extremely talented musicians that their talents are not even being scratched playing most of the tunes the audience wants to hear, but if that entertains them then we must go on.

5 years from now, someone will be playing an old Audya and the next generation of mind interface wave sampling crystal ball keyboard will get looks and comments on how we are not even playing anymore.

Just take an arranger keyboard and have someone with little or no musical skills and see if they can make any enjoyable music. I bet not, so we are still needed for now

Hi Guys, Four you who have Tyros, go to Rock&roll 1 ,tweek the background guitars & and drums and you have almost the exact same sound. Wow!

Love my Yammie,

Jim

2T2s

Aside from the statement above ...
I see many good musicians that are less then adequate TECHNICAL Arranger players that cannot navigate around the unit while they are playing this is where mixing the two tasks cause problems to many...you must be VERY Good at both Playing & Navigating in REAL TIME to be proficient.....
split second timing is crucial.

maybe they have used the melodyne for resolve the all chords tab.. http://celemony.datarepository.de/video/exp_tour/Melodyne.2.6.wmv
Give also the VST version in realtime for each tracks SEQ: http://www.lionstracs.com/store/images/gui2007/os2/melodyne.jpg

Like Diki told before; I cant really understand too how the Audya can manage the all audio chords loops in realtime...

In the video demo I saw just some chords pressed, but what happen if the all others chords are pressed?
Audya can not HD streaming, for sure they have first to load the all data in RAM and then manage all by the Midi, like a sampler.
They have cutted the video from the first style to the second, so I can not understand how much loading time they need before one style is ready to play ( SD1 need a lot of time just for loading some Mb of data...Audya use the same Dream chipset..)
maybe, how Tommy told before, they will use the same loops for tons of others styles, because they have to hold in memory...how know?

After this, I like to see how they can switch chords in offset of the BAR quantize and hear if the audio loop can start is offset point too. ( with HD streaming is possible, but under MIDI sampler controlled this is impossible)

maybe someone can reply to my question, because i'm really courios to understand.
cheers

I agree completely, it's like watching my parents trying to send an email. My parents speak perfect Italian, but watching them try to type an email takes them down.,

I play a couple gigs with other arranger players, and they do not have any idea of registrations, so everytime they pick a new song, it takes time for them to grab the style then they are adjusting tempo as the song starts. Very unprofessional and cheesy.

You can give a race car driver a yugo and they can beat the pants off of a 80 year old who has never driven a stick, with a Lamborghini

You asked for individual voices ... we responded today Thr. (Pls. - do not mind me shaking with the camera ... had to capture as much as I could and this isn't my profession anyway ).
http://www.ketron.it/musikmesse2008/index.asp#

Anyway, here you get an idea of some of the individual sounds plus changing chords regardless of where in the measure!!

We can't disclose 'how' we do it (it's our secret) however AUDYA (with the audio loops where applicable) will be able to recognize and properly play back all 32 relative chord irrespective of WHEN the chord is played within the measure. For on board styles, samples will be stored in ROM (no HD streaming in this case). If a new style is loaded from disk, all relative samples and 'parts' will be loaded as well (using the new P3 intel chip has made this rather easier!)

More to follow!

AJ

I agree completely too.
More knobs, sliders, keys you have on one keyboard, more easy and fast is to navigate during play, this because you can recall by pressing one switch the desidered function, sounds and so on...

Openlabs make nice windows keyboards too, but just look at the all videos available..5% they play on the keyboard and the 95% the have to navigate with the pad mouse/touch screen for recall some simple sounds/functions.
I really dont understand how they can make live music with this keyboards....
Enjoy what you play...

And then if in a dancing situation gig while they stop in between songs...look for settings, sheets, lyrics etc etc the dance floor which was packed on the previous song is now standing there staring at you...and quickly dissipating & dwindling to nothing while you attempt to try an navigate your arranger for your next tune....I cringe when I see it happen to other players either OMB arranger or Duo's, Trios, full Bands With that said, even with all the so called best sounds, styles, 61/76/88 keys, & all the other playing feature fall short unless one learns how to Put It All Together as a nice REAL TIME playing package.

AJ thanx for the demos they are very interesting so far .....hope to see many more Audya features shown off soon.

Hey Diki ..

Sorry I said "slam" .. Dan O'

If Audya can achieve what this achieves http://www.celemony.com/dna_standalone/eu/dna.html then

Wow
It really does take arrangers to a new level.

Bill

abacus,

This is similar to what we're doing - hence not all chords need to be sampled ... just the strategic few! Ofcourse when you look at Audio drums, Audio Bass, Audio chord parts, a lot of processing is required for real-time (unlike say the example shown here which is close anyway) -
http://www.celemony.com/dna_standalone/eu/dna.html

... which is why the Intel P3 becomes useful to upgrade to. Audya also has the AI to react in real time/live to the chord changes either via Arranger chord input, or Midifiles or both. So even a Midifile (the way you see and hear it now) will be perfected with Audya! Notice the difference in the fluence of chord changes from the Prototypes we have now versus those shown at the Namm 2008 or Frankfurt 2007 shows!! A P4 might eventually be used, but not yet confirmed.

Thanks,

AJ

some here do not mach..i'm totally now confused..

AJ wrote:
We can't disclose 'how' we do it (it's our secret) however AUDYA (with the audio loops where applicable) will be able to recognize and properly play back all 32 relative chord irrespective of WHEN the chord is played within the measure. For on board styles, samples will be stored in ROM (no HD streaming in this case). If a new style is loaded from disk, all relative samples and 'parts' will be loaded as well (using the new P3 intel chip has made this rather easier!)

Well, for me now don't seem one secret, because after see again the Robert video demo at position: 02:05 he say that for each chord give a totally different audio loops. This is the same way tat we use on Qranger too, but without tracks audio-midi-effects limitation.

In the Audya specification is written: 360Mb ROM ( 32 rewritable) and another 64Mb for the sampler instruments, 197 voice, it mean that you have used 2 Dream chip.

Now the news is the new P3 Intel chipset 8 possible to upgrade to P4). P3 can manage 2Gb RAM and P4 more than 16Gb RAM.

If give this possibility, why to use the 360Mb ROM flash expensive when is possible use 1 or more Gb of the PC ram?
This mean that audya still continue use the Dream chip features, with limited memory and DSP processing.
Is really simple to know if i'm right, just let us see how much time need the Audya for loading a new Style in ram.
P3 Intel need only 2-4 seconds for loading 64Mb data in Ram.

I have installed my PCI 9708 Eva board in one AMD 64bit X2 dual core 4800+ and loading 64Mb data need the same time like used under ISA bus, about 8 minute.

Maybe I'm wrong but you can correct me.
(is 8 years now that I develope PCB boards, VGA and use the Drem chip, I know really well how is working)

Meloyne Poly is still offline processing, VST is estimated end 2008, seem more than 5 years of developement and need a big CPU.
We already have used it under Qranger VST version, but is to much slow for now, we wil wait the new version too. http://www.lionstracs.com/store/images/gui2007/os2/melodyne.jpg http://www.lionstracs.com/store/information_pages.php?info_id=24

I will not fight at all, seem that we are working about in the same Arranger concept. I like to undestand the way that you have take and how is your editor working to create one new audio-midi style.
Cheers

[This message has been edited by LIONSTRACS (edited 03-13-2008).]

You've got to love it when the manufacturers and their reps duke it out over claims and hype in our little forum!

Makes a change from the CIA-like silence from Roland about ANYTHING...!

I don't CARE how they do it. When I get a chance to play one, if it has the features and does what I want, I will use it. I don't even understand how TV signals fly through the air and a semi-nekkid lady appears on my screen almost as if she were sprawled on the floor.
I don't need to know HOW to appreciate the nekkid lady's being there.
DonM

yes, you are right, if then you have to recycle the same ROM audio loops forever and in every new styles.

Maybe you have forget the first post, for that I make this all question.


Sounds fantastic. As I understand it these styles use real recorded audio loops for the guitar sound, but I wonder how many of these audio loops are actually included in the Audya. If there is only a limited number of them, you will soon tire hearing the same audio loops over and over again. Traditional midi programming - or the Guitar Mode in the Korg series - gives much more room for variation which in the end can be better than an ultra realistic sound.

Kind regards,
Tommy

These demos are ok ...but are they going to show off all the other styles, & features that make the Audya different than other arranger kb's? so far I dont see much that would make me buy one other then the sliders are a nice touch....common Ketron you can do better then this on demonstrating the ground breaking new unit!

Donny,

Didn't you hear those LIVE drums and the Jazz Styles with the drum solos? Those sounded awesome. I really like the new Chord/style variations. Imagine playing a style and the style changes chord to chord????

Also, those guitar strum sounds are wonderful.

This all sounds attractive to me.



------------------
Al Giordano
http://www.arrangerworld.com


Tyros 2, Korg Pa2xpro, Roland VK8-M, DW Collectors Series Drums, Roland TD-12 Vdrums, Roland SPD-S.

Al of course Ive listened to all the demos...but I not convinced at all about what this KB can do yet.....Ketron needs to really decipher whats going on for the public to get a real view of why they should buy an Audya & why would it be productive to them for their needs as arranger KB players & beyond. So far I haven't seen or heard that have you?
A few drum solos, a couple of average songs jams that honestly sound like the SD1+.
People are asking what the Audya is all about? Many people are always talking about how they THIN OUT their styles so not to be so busy.... will that be a deterrent when the Audya has So Much going on at once? Until that is demonstrated IN FULL I for one am not jumping on board this train.
That could change in the future depending on how they proceed. Wait & see is my status as of now.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-14-2008).]

It looks and sounds pretty amazing so far, but my major concern remains...

What kind of commitment will Ketron make to increasing the number of factory styles using the "live Loop' feature, once you buy it?

Most of us have multiples of the same style, so you don't sound the same on one cha-cha as the next (or whatever!). How many styles will all be different in the Audya, and how many new styles will Ketron release a year for this proprietary format? Trust me, boys and girls... most of you are NOT going to want to prepare an entire audio style library yourselves. This is NOT editing a MIDI part or two. This is the laborious slicing and dicing of hundreds of loops (to make an entire style this way). Most of us do NOT make our best styles ourselves. We have factory ROM styles, 3rd party styles, conversions from other brands, but this format will be Ketron ONLY...

They've either got to work hard to keep our interest with new styles, or PRAY that some third party style factory wants to risk the cost (recording a good loop library is expensive) of developing for this. Because, once again trust me... you are going to want ALL your styles to be as killer-sounding as the 'live loop' ones. You are not going to be happy when SOME of your styles sound like a million bucks, and others make change..!

So.... whither Ketron?

Quantity and quality of the new styles depend only on the styles editor that they will include on Audya.

If they have some similar on Qranger, you can Import and add the all audio loops just is some minute and ready to play: http://www.lionstracs.com/demo/qranger/QrangerEMCaudio.wmv

then you have also to value the all audio loops to insert and how many you need for complete one style, this all depend of the RAM sampler available and the loading time before you can pres Play.

On Qranger you can see that I'm alble to drag&drop audio-midi files object when still the SEQ is playing, this because we use the HD Streaming. Insert, delete, copy, paste....on qranger is realy simple and all in realtime, including unlimited tracks and effects for each track.
I just made one new audio style for testing the system: 30 patterns, 350 audio wavs+mp3, 640Mb of data used for one style. Load and ready to play in less 1 second!

still I waiting to see the Audya loding one new style for value if this new P3 give the true power...
Enjoy what you play

I watched this video demo & it was very interesting how the process of song creation is starting to take a whole new direction versus simple repetitive styles that we have used in the past....this clearly shows what can be done regarding style development & creation by the player..
Its sought of Frankensteinish in a good way but the end results can be phenomenal. What concerns me is that learning HOW TO create with this new software could be a hindrance to many who are not that familiar with all this new technology, cut/paste, vst/looping, etc, etc, what is being done to simplify, & teach the user operate all this new technology, because without this is the only way people will buy & use these products no matter how good they sound ....... I'm sure this looks very complicated to many especially if your going to switch from a conventional arranger to this new stuff. I hope in the future they will address the everyday player & make it as easy as possible.

Don’t Panic
Most of what is contained in a modern arranger/organ was first only available on computers, (Great for Tech Heads) however manufactures adapted the technology so that anybody could use it. (Yes you still need a computer to go really deep, but few users need to)
As an example:
A lot of users would have shy away from VSTs, but when you see how easy it can be to use them, http://wersiworld.com/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=71&Itemid=34 it becomes just another arranger/organ feature.


Bill

One thing that concerns me about live VSTi use is, how well does the instrument deal with overload?

In other words, when you are in the studio, and the limits of your DAW or VSTi computer are exceeded, the sound simply cuts off completely, stutters, or sometimes crashes altogether. Bad news, but not the end of the world... Re-boot, and offload some task to free up resources for the VSTi.

But in a live situation, without thoroughly testing EVERY single possible playing scenario, you can't guarantee that this won't happen, and live, this IS a tragedy...!

So.... is there any way to ensure that the CPU's resources are NEVER taxed to the point of breakdown? Some polyphony limit, or overhead meter that will warn you should you select a sound that cannot be handled, either by the CPU, or the HD?

Hi Diki
Not sure how they have done it with the VSTs, (Although interesting that you can only load 4 simultaneously) but with the rest of the instrument it is all controlled by the OAS database, (And from demos so are the VST sounds in OAS 7) and if what you are trying to load takes you over computer specs limitations then it wont allow you to load it.
If you improve your onboard computer specs, you just reload OAS with the upgrade button, (Just as if you are loading an update) and the OAS database matches itself to the new computer spec.
The above is just a basic explanation of how it works, but should give you a general picture.
Regards

Bill


[This message has been edited by abacus (edited 03-15-2008).]

The thing is, Bill, CPU load depends on the number of voices played. It is dynamic. Unlike hardware, where the architecture is designed to give you a certain amount of polyphony, and no more (but no less!).

So how, for instance, does the OAS determine whether you can load a VSTi or not? You might only need two voices of a streaming bass voice, but the computer certainly won't know that unless you tell it in advance.

It may indeed only let you load 4 VSTi at a time, but I guarantee you, some modern VSTi can bring a fast CPU to it's knees all by themselves... This is the achilles heel of the 'open' systems, which leverage CPU's to do the work of hardware, but do NOT guarantee you how many voices you can use, nor give you a soft landing if you exceed them...

Have you ever managed to overload your CPU on your Abacus, Bill? What happens? Does the entire arranger come to it's knees, or just the VSTi? B4 is NOT going to tax this. It's pretty CPU efficient, and uses no streaming samples (or any samples at all). This is going to occur when using layered up Performances from some of the big streaming sample libraries (Goliath, Ivory, VSL, etc.).

The whole dynamic nature of VSTi's must be a nightmare for the OAS to figure out what and how much any particular VSTi is going to effect polyphony. Once you start to use these libraries for the styles, as well as your 'live' playing, this is a brick wall you are rushing towards!

Are there any printed specs on how well the OAS handles each particular VSTi?

Hi Diki
You can never be 100% guaranteed (Even hardware can’t achieve that) but apart from those uses that have modified the OAS system files, I am not aware of anyone having any problems occurring in normal use.
The polyphony for the VSTs is variable (Depends on computer specs) and the way the OAS system works (Although you will need to ask the engineers if you want the technical specs) is that if you exceed the limit, the least significant note drops out. (This drop out does not affect the OAS voices (Which includes Akai samples) as these are processed separately by the SG12 PCI card)
You will need to contact Wersi Germany or Helmut Eder of Wersi Austria for more technical details.
Hope this helps

Bill

IMO I dont think this kind of technology for "LIVE USE" with out any problems for seamless play on stage as an arranger in a live navigational situation is anywhere near ready for at least 10 more years until it is perfected....sure it looks interesting, mixing & matching all kinds of VST things, but when your under pressure & need split second flowing changes without glitches or hindrance of any kind they have a long way to go for my needs. I'm going to just sit back and watch the progress in the years to come before I even think of a purchase of this type of arranger unit. Maybe in studio/recording use it might be feasible....but not in live use on stage under performance pressure top of that they need to TEACH the mainstream everyday player how to operate all the features & fight "old School" way of thinking too which is not an easy task.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-16-2008).]

Hi DNJ
Its amazing how many people still think the Wersi is new untried technology, whereas in fact its been in use for more then 8 years, (This is the amount of time that Wersi OAS instruments have been played live, from small gatherings to football Stadiums, Home use to Concert Halls, both by top artists and the regular gigging musician, all instruments being transported from Gig to Gig) so I don’t know what you are worried about.
Just pop along to your dealer and try one, if you don’t like it, stick with what you have got, (You won’t loose anything but a bit of time and gas) if you do like it, think of all the new musical avenues open to you.
As to learning to use it, then it is no different then going from a Yamaha to a Korg or a Roland to a Ketron etc.
As to Old School then Yes, this will always be a problem, but please remember that all arrangers used to be classed as toys for the 1 finger brigade, and not worthy of any consideration by a Pro Player, however they are now an accepted as part of the establishment.
Enjoy Life, Play a Wersi

Bill

Hi Bill.....Fran & I have a trip to Lancaster PA Wersi very soon to demo some of their units......I have an open mind & will always give things a chance......
life is too short to not at least try.
I know the price sometimes turns people off but in the ;long run & if you add a couple of units together that you buy/sell it really adds up to the same thing.

Here's some info on the "how" audya works ..
This is from the "solton club" ...
Initially one of the main problems using live audio was audio loops of different tempos if played together
fall out of sync

The solution was to use loop slicing. Loop slicing solves this problem allowing you to adjust the tempo and
length of a audio sample without changing the pitch or sonic character of the instrument, and makes
it possible for loops with different tempos to play together or to coexist at a consistent tempo without falling out of sync.

Ketron live drums for example use real audio drum samples, using loop slicing each drum note or drum
beat sample can be triggered by the keyboard this is why their drums sound so good. this is much easier to
implement than guitar loops because drums never change key

Ketrons new technology of using instrument audio loops is much more difficult because of the number of chord variations
involved.As Barry already mentioned different chord shapes or samples are mapped accross the entire keyboard
range as required and can be assigned to be triggered by a specific key or note.

This is why the Audya sounds are very realistic it is using real audio samples.

The thing that interests me most about Peters Direct Note access software is imaging recording an audio file which
contains playing mistakes These playing mistakes can now be corrected using an audio midi like piano roll editor without the need for Cubase, Cakewalk or other sampling editor software - AMAZING



------------------
http://www.esnips.com/web/Songs

Hi Dan01,
certainly sounds like it's going to be a fascinating keyboard.

Thanks also for the info on how the sd1 Live Drums work. I had a feeling they were sliced audio loops, which was something I knew nothing about till I got my PA800. The user groove files in the PA800 use sliced audio drum loops. I'd been planning on trying something similiar to what the sd1 does ie use a mix of midi drums on one track & sliced audio drum loop on another for the styles. So this may just work for me after all.

It's amazing Ketron have managed to get it working with other instruments like guitars etc.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by DanO1:
[B]
Ketron live drums for example use real audio drum samples, using loop slicing each drum note or drum
beat sample can be triggered by the keyboard this is why their drums sound so good.

Hi Rikki and others,

I cannot but wonder: BIAB 2008 happens to use for the first time not only Real Drums but also Real Guitars for their backing parts, so I ask: is there any similarity between the two systems? And, could it be possibile to load (or at least convert) BIAB loops inside the Audya?
This is not a secondary point, because, as all BIAB aficionados know, there are already many styles made available by PG Music (and more will no doubt be released in the future), so these would be excellent news for all those worried with the Audya "upgrade-ability".

Please,
someone explain me what is the difference between

"...Ketron live drums...real audio drum samples, using loop slicing each drum note or drum beat sample can be triggered by the keyboard..."

and

samples of a bass drum or snare or high hat, triggered by midi notes as we all do since day one (since arrangers have samples in their sound engines).

As above,
if they take actual chords played by living guitarists, and break them apart in individual samples etc,

what is the difference between that and simple midi notes triggering?

[This message has been edited by trident (edited 03-18-2008).]

You can never play the same Chord via midi triggering and make it sound the same, as it would sound when played on a guitar!

You might get close, but certain characteristics will still be missing!

On top of that it is easier to work with samples than midi.
Keep in mind that I am talking about making instruments sound as realistic as possible.

Hey Dreamer ... what is BIAB ?

BIAB = Band in the Box

Really cool prgoram from PG Music,

How's it going Dan

Frank... I'm ok .. Did you receive the emails I sent last week ?

Hi Dreamer,
I somehow doubt it, but that's only my humble opinion. Mainly because of the size of the files required. When you look at a simple 1 bar BIAB drum loop being nearly 1 megabyte.
Imagine the user memory required to deal with the various chords with an instrument like a guitar? Sounds like Ketron have managed to do it within rom , but user sounds? loops ? or whatever may be required might be a bit more difficult. Going to be fascinating to see what is available as far as user programability goes.
They did an amazing job with very little rom as far as the Real Drums go considering there's something like 70 to 80 (give or take) Real Drum sets in the sd1+, & yet to create a 1 bar sliced user drum audio loop for our Korg Pa's uses 1meg of user memory.

best wishes
Rikki

Hi Trident,
the Live Drums in my SD1+ has had me rather intrigued for quite a while.
The Sd can play 3 types of drums.
It has the normal set of midi drum kits like your Brush kits , Jazz kits, Standard Kits etc etc

It can also use USER audio drum loops in styles & midifiles ie 1 bar 2 bar etc audio drum loops ( ie Drums on Demand, you could even use BIAB's Real Drum audio loops with some editing) . These drum loops are loaded into the sd1 sampler, processed & can be used to replace the midi drums in a style or midifile. They keep in sync even at different tempo's ie the loop may be recorded at 80 bpm, the style may be 100bpm, the loop will play back correctly at the 100bpm speed.
Just say you have a simple 1 bar audio drum pattern like 1& 2& 3& 4&
Beat 1 bass/hihat 1& hihat
Beat 2 rimshot/hihat 2& hihat
Beat 3 bass/hihat 3& hihat
Beat 4 rimshot/hihat 4& hihat
The SD1 just loops this audio file & plays it back in sync with the style part.

Next up you have the Live Drums. From what I gather, these are a mix of audio & midi technology. & they are Rom based.
I have a feeling that they may work in a similar manner to my pa800 grooves, except that the PA800 grooves are user based audio loops wheras the Ketron Live Drum audio loops are rom based.

With the PA800 I load in a drum audio loop,
( same as for the sd1) process it. This is where they differ.
The PA800 slices the loop into segments & gives each segment a midi note no.

Beat 1 bass/hihat C1
1& hihat C#1
Beat 2 rimshot/hihat D1
2& hihat D#1
Beat 3 bass/hihat E1
3& hihat F1
Beat 4 rimshot/hihat F#1
4& hihat G1

If I leave the midi note track as is, the pattern will play back identically to what the sd1 loop would have played back,
but if I choose to edit it,
Beat 1 bass/hihat C1
1& hihat C#1
Beat 2 rimshot/hihat D1
2& hihat D#1
Beat 3 rimshot/hihat D1
3& hihat F1
Beat 4 bass/hihat C1

I can alter the pattern to a certain degree.
Doesn't make much sense to do it with a 1 bar loop, but if you strung a number of varied audio loops together, & sliced, you could come up with some interesting new rhythms.

This is the way I think the Live Drums work.
Ketron have used a multi bar rom based audio loop, that has been sliced. Each of the slices is assigned a midi note no. Certain midi notes trigger different slices of the loop.

Most of the Ketron SD1+ styles use a Live Drum Set & one of the midi drum sets ie in a Jazz brush style the Live Drums play the Brushes Swishes & Bass Drum, the Midi Drum set plays the hihats, cymbals, ride drums etc
this way the Live Drum track can be used thruought the style ( including some of the intro's & Endings, wheras the Midi drum kit provides the variety between the variations by adding cymbal crashes or altering the hihat rhythm etc.

Hope to do something similiar with audio loops for my PA800. Just a case of finding suitable drum loops.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by trident:
[B]

Rikki
thanks very much for the analysis....

If I understand, what they did was take a recording of a real drummer,
say a 4/4, duration one bar
and slice it VERTICALLY say at 8ths
so they come up with that bar cut in 8 pieces
which they assign into midi notes and finally
you can arrange their order.

Yep, I think I am getting an idea.

Hi Trident,
basically that's the way the Korg works . I can work with more than 1 bar at a time, but it starts to chew up my available sample memory.

I think they've done something similar with the Ketron sd1 except that I would imagine the Ketron is based on more than the one bar , plus they would have recorded their loops specifically to suit, wheras I'm stuck with finding prerecorded drum loops.

I'm really only guessing, I've got zero inside knowledge, & it's not mentioned anywhere in the manual on what they really are, but Dan01 mentioned the word slices & audio loops.

best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by trident:
[B]Rikki
thanks very much for the analysis....



[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 03-19-2008).]

What happens to the audio if you play the loop SLOWER than it was recorded at? Are there 'gaps' between the audio, as the slices get moved apart, or does the engine time-stretch them?

Most of the professional loop tools (Acid, Live, REX, Apple Loops, etc.) will time stretch the ends of the samples, to allow for slowing down the loop without creating holes in the sound. Does any arranger (apart from MS) do this?

Hi Diki,
I gather you're refferring to the Korg??
It doesn't mention Time Stretching as such.
I don't even know what it actually means.
I've only been doing some minor experimentation with the groove files, ie I've put together some brush swish pads. I'll have to check & see if there is a gap if used at a slower tempo.

There is a note in the manual that says
"Gaps between sliced samples, when slowing down the tempo, can be automatically filled by the Extend function , smoothing out each sample's tail".
I've still got a lot to learn, but the difference in perceived sound between hearing midi drums play jazz brush swishes & hearing an audio loop play something similiar, will I beleive , make it worth the effort of digging in deeper.

Not enough hours in the day, between wanting to get stuck into figuring out guitar mode, & learning about the audio grooves.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Diki:
[B]What happens to the audio if you play the loop SLOWER than it was recorded at? Are there 'gaps' between the audio, as the slices get moved apart, or does the engine time-stretch them?



[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 03-19-2008).]

I would think that any product, by any manufacturer, would be designed to be musically correct. Otherwise, it defeats the purpose of the manufacturing the product.

All manufactures do the best with the technology available to them at the time, so while in an ideal world everything would be musically perfect, in the real world it may not be as accurate as you think. (Time stretch takes a lot of processing power)
A good example is the fact that most manufactures are now moving towards or are already using sound modelling for their sounds rather then sampling, (Giving a much more real sound) which requires more processing power then is available in hardware based boards, however Yamaha developed a Hybrid of the 2 called Super Articulation which while not accurate still gives a fantastic sound. (For Yamaha owners who think SA is perfect, ask yourself why Yamaha are bringing out SA 2 in the soon to be released Tyros 2 replacement)
Remember, due to the time taken to develop a new hardware board (2 – 3yrs) the technology is quite old by the time it is released. (As an example the Audya thread has mentioned a P3 CPU which is positively antique, and P4 has almost disappeared)

Bill

Bill great points & an eye opining post...makes you wonder eh?

Totally right Bill!
Maybe they can value to include this in the Audya for resolve the powe computing: http://global.msi.com.tw/index.php?func=proddesc&prod_no=1315&maincat_no=388

Another video is available: http://www.mira-multimedia.de/video/Messe2008.wmv

I will not add comments anymore.... value yourself.
enjoy what you play

I think creating sounds is one thing, but what I get from most of diki's post, is questioning how the arrangements/styles/patterns will work with the technology of Audya.

So my point is, why would a manufacturer make a product, if the styles etc.. do not sound musically correct.


------------------
http://www.esnips.com/web/Songs

Also, will there be an Extensive DVD INSTRUCTIONAL series to TEACH players HOW TO operate & utilize all these new features so that they will be able to implement them correctly.....
Knowledge = Purchasing/playing/enjoying a unit.

Without this people will merely scratch their heads & either not buy or say why did I buy this thing & sell it asap.

I don't think navigation will change from what is currently on the market.

As Don M says.. If the keyboard doesn't sound good, who cares ?

I'm going to judge the sound, before I worry about anything else.

The Audya sounds simply wonderful. Thank you for posting that link Domenik!

The Audya almost has me convinced. Two things I am most concerned about when watching the video is the demonstrator is really pushing the buttons an awful lot and it detracts from his presentation. If a person is preoccupied with busily pushing buttons on the Audya it would also detract from a live performance of the person playing the Audya in a live setting in my opinion. I found myself fixated on that guy pushing buttons instead of honing in on the sounds and ambience of the music he was playing. Maybe he was new to the Audya's OS and also possibly not real familiar with the button layout. His playing was outstanding though and in the end that was what put the overall demonstration in a positive light. The sounds that he showcased were fabulous and the icing on the cake is that the Audya has 76 keys. He apparently was not using any foot pedals to engage fills, breaks, variation changes or DSP modulation, etc., so if that was the case I could then see why he was pushing so many buttons during his playing. That and his possbible unfamiliarity with the OS and button layout, etc.

Another thing that has me a bit tempered in my enthusiasm is the vocalizer. In his demonstration of the Britney Spears song he replaced Spears voice with his own; yet to sound like a girl's voice. It didn't sound too bad but he kept turning his head away from the mic so it really didn't give me a very good indication of the quality (or lack thereof) of the vocalizer. I know the first video demo of the Audya's vocalizer at last years Musikmesse sounded rather poor in my opinion and more like a vocoder than a vocalizer and even though this one sounded better I am nevertheless still hesitant about the true nature and quality of the Audya's vocalizer and if it will indeed pass muster and be comparable to the TC Helicon vocalizers on the Korg arrangers or possibly even better. Or will it sound more like a vocoder instead.

When the demonstrator talked about hooking up external hard drives to the Audya's USB interface it further confirms in my mind that the Audya will have USB 2.0 upon release.

But if a person is judging the Audya from just the sounds of the keyboard alone then I for one have to give it a resounding thumbs It will be very hard, in my opinion, for Yamaha to come even close to the sound quality of the Audya especially when you consider the audio loop aspect of the Audya. It puts the Audya in a class by itself in my opinion. In both sound quality and in its innovation with its ground breaking technology for a keyboard product it puts the Audya at the head of the pack and the other manufacturers having to scramble to play catch up. I can imagine Yamaha's mouth gaping wide open in awe and amazement at Ketrons accomplishment. As well as Roland, Korg and all the others too. Bravo Ketron! Bravissimo!!

Best,
Mike

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 03-20-2008).]

Hi Mike...

Go to my website and listen to a few songs.
All harmony's you hear, were using the SD1 harmonizer.

------------------
http://www.esnips.com/web/Songs

Mike I dont think Yamaha or anyone else is amazed by Audya at all....I think you better take a deep breath and sit back until it is released tested and proven to be a winner.....Ketron has been on the catchup path all this time vs the BIG GUNS Like Yamaha .....I dont think that's going to change anytime soon.....I for one am still not Impressed with any of the Audya demos I have watched, more needs to be explained & demonstrated & tested on these prototypes. What you describe in watching the demonstrator doing with all the buttons settings will be a deterrent for many WHILE PLAYING for sure.....the more things you have to utilize in real-time is always a hindrance in performance.....more buttons, settings, pedals, charts, make for more things to adjust, tweak, change, while you play....seamless interaction becomes a more difficult interaction couple that with the lack of instructional DVDs & operational knowledge will surly have these Audya on eBay soon after purchase....but what do I know

Ketron Audya to showcase at Pakefield Keyboard Festival

Bill

Hi Bill,
when's that??

Hopefully one day they'll have a downloadable manual.

best wishes
Rikki

Details here http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/017256.html

Regards

Bill

Thanks Bill,
best wishes
Rikki

More video's from frankfurt >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=495i9Y876Zg&NR=1

Impuls/Soryt.

Hi all,
I posted a simular question in another thread but so far no reply.
Maybe I get better result in this one.
I have listened to the Audya demos and yes, they sounds great but want to hear some more.
Anyway, now to my question. Since I am visually impaired I have just listened to the videos. So my question is, how much do you see of the actual instrument? From what I understand there is no touch screen wich is very good and also sliders.
Does it look professional?
Many thanks for any info!
Christian

Impuls, they sound good!!!!!!!

Christian ....the answer is YES...

I demo'd Ketron products to many visually impaired musicians, Stevie Wonder was one of them !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNklXa9WLjs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnWe1zos6So&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLl4JBgsSFM&feature=related

Hi Dan,
OK, that sounds great. So what do you actually see in these videos in short? How much of the actual instrument do you see?
Many thanks,
Christian

Full Pictures of the keyboard have been shown for a while...

Here's some info about navigation. We'll use the the screen as your focus..

To the left of the screen you will feel sliders that control volumne levels.
On the right side you will have a group of buttons like a telephone pad, the buttons are raised, This group of buttons will be the style banks. The buttons are slightly raised, so you'll be able to feel them. If you slide your had to the right of the keypad, you will feel a couple of long rows of buttons, which will be your sound choices...

On the side of the screen will be 5 buttons each. Each button will call up a style or sound, depending on what your trying to select.