http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=920&ParentId=83

After watching this video demo.....
I could see many of these features incorporated into the next Roland TOTL arranger... what do you think?

Let's hope the problems with the old ones are corrected in the next generation.

Ian

What problems were they Ian?

"What a day for a daydream, custom made for a daydreamin' boy. Now I'm lost in a daydream dreaming 'bout my bundle of joy..."

Check with Roland Arranger...seems to be a few issues with the accompaniment and recording.

Diki can probably elaborate on them.

Ian

ONLY 61 KEYS ??? [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img]

check again Trident they unlike Yamaha Roland makes three modles.....61/76/88
http://www.rolandus.com/products/productlist.aspx?ParentId=83

Yamaha Motif comes in three versions...61, 76 and 88...last time I checked.

Better actions, too.

Ian

I knew that, just checking of course Ian everything Yamaha does is better!!

well, anything but that!

It was a joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LOL

G serie is really well made! Compliment Roland for the big display jump quality and interface!
The GUI interface are really amazing and professional, really NOTHING to compare to the all other keyboards.

anyone know if the SEQ there is able also to realtime playback song: transpose, time Stretch and marker loop pointer?

The new Fantom G8 comes with a brand new keyboard that is said to be a DREAM to play!

top-of-the-line PHA II “Ivory Feel” keyboard. This amazing keyboard technology reproduces the real surface feel of ivory acoustic piano keys providing a familiar stability and comfort to the pianist. The white keys have a 2-piece structure which reduces the surface ‘click’ noise when playing. The newly developed keyboard surface material is designed to absorb moisture, ensuring a secure, slip-proof feel that your fingers will love

The specs look really good, but I'll reserve my comments till I try the action myself.

Since it is new, just how reliable it is will be is a factor that must be considered as well.

Yamaha has a similar material on the keys of the high end CVP line...they call it "Ivoryite"...absorbs moisture like ivory key tops used to before they were outlawed.

T'wouldn't be a surprise if Yamaha began using it on their Digital Stage Pianos...like the CP-300's successor.

Competition always improves the breed.

Also, this type of action may not make it to Roland's G-70 replacement(?)...semi-weighted seems to be the preferred choice for the G-series.

Ian

Lets face it people are playing plastic crap out there & enjoying it so what the heck does it matter......too much is being put into this 61/76/88 key thing IMO...
Are you going to sound better with it? willing to schlep the extra weight? Are your fingers aching after a gig due to the key-weight? Can you effectively use the articulated sounds properly with Piano style, or semi weighted keys,..........

what will change in YOUR music if you had 76 or 88 keys?

Donny, there are a LOT of pianists that would LOVE to be able to play with a technique they have worked on for their entire life on an arranger... But I for one feel VERY cramped trying to be pianistic on a 61.

76 is probably the only compromise that gives you this range, while still staying plastic (for non-piano sounds), but for the true pianist, it is still not enough. As the piano sounds in arrangers get better and better, to the point of being competitive with any other WS out there, it is frustrating to have the SOUND, but not the keyboard range to use it.

You all have to remember, an OMB with multiple gigs a day is not the sole purpose of an arranger. It is as flexible as a WS, capable of being used in almost ANY musical situation, at least sound-wise, so crippling its' form factor to the point where OMB technique is the ONLY good use for it is short-sighted. Fortunately, Yamaha are the ONLY manufacturer with this myopic point of view.

I believe that Yamaha are trying to leverage their FAR less popular, and FAR more expensive CVP-like arranger/piano hybrids by NOT making a 76 or 88 Tyros or PSR line. Given their market dominance in 61 arrangers, but lackluster sales of the CVP's (or whatever the acronym du jour is), I don't think this is working out too well as a business plan. The fact that they make ANY arranger keyboard with an 88 or 76 acknowledges that there IS a market for the pianist/arranger player, but they simply think this market can afford the overpriced (and arranger crippled) products they make at the moment. Facts do not bear this out...

In the meantime, all their competition acknowledges that a small, but significant minority of arranger players want a REAL arranger, with more keys. And 76 is the best compromise between weight and key-feel to be able to use as MORE than just a 'piano with an arranger section' and also more than a OMB keyboard you CAN'T play piano on....

OF COURSE, the majority want the 61 (cheap, light, and they probably are not pianists in the first place), but Korg, Ketron, Roland, MS, just about everybody OTHER than Yamaha seem somehow to be able to make a profit (you don't think for one minute that they LOSE money on these, do you? ) from a 76.

I just think Yamaha are clinging desperately to the hope that a pianist who wants a 76 or 88 arranger is going to buy one of the CVPs, rather than take a look at a REAL arranger with a 76, which they don't make.

Or you could simply say that, despite dominating in the 61 arranger market, somehow Yamaha doubt they could do the same in the 76 market....

Not a lot of corporate 'cojones' in that decision, IMO.

Diki good points all valid & make sense.
Choice for the players is all that is needed to satisfy all. We shall see.

Well Diki, it is obvious that Yamaha dominate the 61 note arranger market...but, now that we know the next Tyros will not have 76 keys...what arranger company do you think will dominate that segment of the market? Korg, Ketron, Roland, MS?

Ian the Curious

It seems Korg have their act together quite well, but once again, don't count Roland out yet. There are still many enthusiastic users, including myself, that consider the G70 the best, all around keyboard on the market. It may not excel as a OMB karaoke machine, but it does a FAR better job than most at covering ALL the bases. Which, if you are pro, or adventurous, it is a strong probability you are going to need...

Pigeonholing yourself by a poor selection of an arranger that fares badly at most thing OTHER than OMB functions is not something I'm comfortable with, being one of the few here that actually DOES 'play well with others' as well as enjoys arranger playing. I'd say both the PA2XPro and the G70 are axes I would be happy to take out on just about any gig, sadly, something I can't say about a 61 (of ANY kind)...

And, to be honest, I don't think a 76 T3 is what would help Yamaha get over the 9000Pro blues. A 76 clone of the S900, maybe with the NP30's action would be a strong seller in the 76 market, competitive price wise with the E60, and with some OS advantages (mp3 playback and recording, Mega voice guitars, synced style and SMFs, jazz chord recognition, etc.) and built in speakers.

The only thing Yamaha would need to do is tool up for the case, as buttons, display and electronics could all be shared with the S900 production line. For as little as this would cost Yamaha, it is puzzling to see them ignore a market that others are happy (and profitable enough) to exploit.

Maybe Yamaha knows more then we do?......
A few SZ members that want a 76 key arranger is not a mind staggering call for a 76/88 unit....I am sure a mega million dollar giant manufacturer like Yamaha has research under control versus a few dream list crystal ball hopefuls & for sure they have their act together knowing what right for their market productivity......if some people dont agree they have a few other choices & avenues they can take but dont be fooled it wont affect Yamaha in any way shape or form Worldwide.

Either we ARE representative of the English speaking arranger user, or we are NOT....

What is it? Because the calls for a 76 Yamaha FAR exceed what apparently OUGHT to be called for, because according to Ian, NO-ONE wants a 76 Yamaha (or not enough to make one, unlike everyone else).

The hubris of it! Basically, Ian (and Yamaha, by omission) are saying no-one needs a 76. 61 note-ers ONLY... It's good enough for him, and by golly, it ought to be good enough for us! How dare we even IMPLY that they might be wrong. They sell most of the 61-ers. That SURELY implies god-like powers of deduction... Hell, maybe we should ask them about a solution in the Middle East, seeing as they know everything!

Or is it that they are SO corporately inflexible, they can't bring themselves to do ANYTHING that might be 'outside the box' just in case it's as big a disaster as the 9000Pro (where was Yamaha's god-like powers there? ).

The fact that Yamaha dominate in ONE area of the arranger market does NOT mean that all their other decisions MUST be correct. They have a long litany of failures in other areas to prove that. It simply means that that ONE decision (to make a great 61) is a good one. As making a great 76 would be as well.

I hope, at least, that none of US think that, if we get ONE thing right, that OBVIOUSLY makes us right in all our other decisions too...

Diki if I may ask you.....without Hubris of course
What would it take for you to jump ship & come over to Yamaha in the future?

76 notes, a punchier set of drums, better MIDI flexibility (to talk to my Roland!) and a Chord Sequencer...

OK, OK, just the Chord Sequencer!

And please bring back a "Black" arranger...
I still say the Roland G1000 was the best looking Arranger KB ever made aside from many great features

Diki, what you mean for the Chord Sequencer feature?
You mean some like my qranger seq: http://www.lionstracs.com/store/images/qrangerpic/qranger%207.jpg
or some else?

Ian
We really don't care at all to dominate nothing.
But the coming soon new MS 2008 HDMI included the X-61, Desktop version with OS 2.5 at very LOW price, ( less than you can think) will create some trouble to the other brand..
i'm working right now in this new case models and need just a couple of months for release it.
enjoy what you play.

No we are not, Diki...SZ is a poor representative of the arranger market.

AND...please don't put words in my mouth...that just makes you look like a sphincter.

If you want to quote me, there is a icon above my posts that you can click on.

Bending my words to try and prove one of your murky points was something I thought was beneath a person of your wit and charm...sadly, I believe I was mistaken.(sigh)

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 03-22-2008).]

Ian, I don't need any reason to bend your words. This is the gist of your apologia for Yamaha's dismissal of legitimate customer needs. In fact, it is your general mantra when ANYTHING negative is said about Yamaha.

They are the market leader, so why should ANY notice be taken of our needs? You PREFER the shitty action of the S900, and Yamaha see no need to change it, so the numerous post about this issue MUST be mistaken. And so on, and so forth.

The OBVIOUS fact you continue to disregard is that Yamaha will STILL be the market leader, should they decide to improve the PSR action, make an inexpensive 76, or add a decent harmonizer to the line. It's not like any of these things will cause a LOSS of revenue. Far from it. But inertia makes them slow to respond (this is an ENORMOUS corporation compared to Roland or Korg), but your constant mantra is, this is all part of some magnificent design, rather than what is obvious to the rest of us... This is a corporation that JUST DOESN'T CARE. "We're #1, why should we improve?"

You have, in the past, mentioned things that you would like to see changed, yourself. Do you hold as low an opinion of you OWN needs when ignored by Yamaha?

Or, perhaps, does it rankle just a LITTLE bit...?

Join the club, mate...

I don't know Diki...it seems like I'm content with what I use...and you're not.

Try and find some sort of contentment, my friend...and thank you for not bending my words.

Remember...criticism is the unconscious tribute mediocrity pays to success.

Keep up the great work and good luck with your mission.

Ian

Now this New Model MS sounds exciting I Cant wait!!! Please keep us posted with info, demos , etc etc

Thank you

And mediocrity is the unconscious payment for lack of criticism.

Perhaps I am more critical because I expect MORE for my money... Like a decent action, like a good 'live' sound, like enough notes to not HAVE to purchase a second keyboard just to play the piano sound...

Perhaps I am more critical because I do not wish to have a corporation dictate to me what and how I should play.

Or maybe I am more critical because I don't WORK for any of these companies, nor have any vested interest in one brand's success..?

Who knows..?

All good points, Diki....but I think you criticise because you like the attention.

Ian

Easy to test, Ian. Just stop rushing to poor little Yamaha's defense at the first sign of criticism.

See if it stops.

But wouldn't I be taking away all your opportunities to slake that thirst?

I wouldn't be that mean.


Ian

Defense of a position that apparently needs NO defense, on a forum that those being criticized pay ZERO attention to seems crazier than anything else going on here...

Sorry, Ian, but MANY here share my 'indefensible' view. Seems there is enough idiocy to go around, doesn't it...?

No thanks buddy...you can keep it all for yourself.

Ian