Alright, Genesys...I always thought it was "Genesis", but have it your way...it's your religion.

I think you should discuss the marketing thingy with Yamaha.

Why don't you contact them?

It is with them that you have the problem.

They have the facts...ask them to give them to you.

I'm just an avid supporter of their products and business practices.

Ian

Ian,

You keep making assertions like this; "Just the dismal sales of G70 and E-60 should be enough to convince anyone...", but you never back them up with any substance or reference. Where do you get your statistics from?

I actually view it as irresponsible in that speculation and rumor could have devastating affects on potential sales of these keyboards.

If we are speculating, then I speculate that initial sales of the Roland G70 were lackluster, but then spiked when Version 2.0 of the OS was released and continue at a robust level.

The new Korg M3 only has 73 keys.

I don't need to back them up...I get my information from dealers and sales people.

Why would they make false statements?

You must learn to trust people.

If you know of any other place to get statistics then I suggest you go there and get them.

OR...as suggested in an earlier post...ask the dealers and salespeople yourself.

I don't mind beating a dead horse as long as you're the one trying to ride it.

Ian

97 keys gives you that extra flexibility. Of course it's tough to transport.
http://www.boesendorfer.com/index.php?menu=8

Graham

I can't believe you guys are still trying to write your names in the snow with this one. The results of the poll clearly show a ratio of approximately 50/50 when it comes to whether they want 61 or 76 keys.

Now, if you seriously think all this bickering and bantering is going to make Yamaha, Korg, Roland, or any manufacturer of anything change is marketing approach you obviously still believe in the Tooth Fairy. Especially when you take into consideration that the vast majority of this forum's members reside in the U.S., which is the smallest segment of the arranger keyboard market.

Time to stick a fork in it folks--it's done!

Cheers,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

I think there are a few here that still do, Gary.

What about a tooth count?

Ian

Gary its a discussion. If its not of any interest to you then thats cool but i am still enjoying it !

'
The other problem that the apologist run in to in their argument is that internal rivalry and one division would take away sales from the other is a reason for Yamaha not making a 76 key arranger. How ever, they also acknowledge that the workstation and arranger markets are 2 different markets. So there is a problem in that argument.'

Where is the problem with the argument ? Are you denying that there are two distinct markets ? Or are you saying that pro users dont use home keyboards ? What about home users who use pro keyboards ? Does that happen at all ?

Of course pro users use home keyboards. They adapt them to the situation. Thats why people who make music for a living can be found playing casios arrangers as well as yamaha. And of course amateurs by pro keyboards. But are these the markets these instruments were intended for ????????

Is the threat that there might be/is interdivisional rivalry and canabalisation of sales a reality ? could pro yamaha keyboard users be interested in a yamaha home keyboard ? and vice versa
http://www.motifator.com

Type in the search engine 'Tyros' and see how many threads come up. Read some of them. Many people are pointing to the T2 for its sounds and user friendliness over the flagship motif XS. Could that turn into tyros sales in place of XS sales ?

If you read any of my posts (and i say 'if' respectfully,) you will see that there is not just one argument for why it might be detrimental to yamaha the corporation to enter the 76 key arranger market or to cross sell internally between the pro and home market. Believe me yamaha dont have a problem making 76 key instruments . They make loads of them but only if they believe they can sell them to the most profitable markets that they can. Could yamaha make a 76 key arranger profitably ? Maybe....i wont say they couldnt. Would they have higher sales / make more profit selling 61 key arrangers or 76 key motifs xs ?? I would say more than likely.

Yamaha are shrewdly focused on maximising their profit. That doesnt mean that the 76 arranger market isnt profitable but it might mean that yamaha cant maximise their profits from this as opposed to other uses of their capital.

Yamaha have the widest range of home keyboards.

Tyros
Tyros 2
PSr1500
PSR450
PSR500
PSRs 700
PSRS900
PSRE213
PSR E313
PSRE4103
PSR0r700
PSRA1000
PSRA300

Then they have the portable grand range that includes a 76 note semi arranger instrument type.

Are you seriously telling me that Yamaha are missing something in their line up FOR THE HOME KEYBOARD MARKET ????

I dont apologise for yamaha's business acumen. I simply acknowledge it. How can someone apologise for success.

Now lets turn this around. Show me the 76 key arranger success stories. I know that the PA2X and the PA1X pro have done well but they bridge that gap between pro features and home users features very well. This product is aimed at pro and adventurous amatuer/homeplayers. The ephasis on progressive youthful styles reflects this. thats why some of you older folk struggle to find enough waltzes and country and jazz styles this instrument still has not sold as anywhere near as well as the T1 or T2.

Has the g70 or Gem, or any other 76 arranger sold well ? in comparrison to the 61 arranger market ?

If not for business reasons, please explain what rational reason yamaha could have for staying out of the 76 key arranger market. We know that they could m ake one. Why do you think that they wont ?

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 04-04-2008).]

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 04-04-2008).]

Somehow this thread turned from "How many keys" discussion to "Why Yamaha don't produce 76 keys arranger" war. I don't want to turn some more oil to the fire but I'm not convinced that either of the "two sides" involved here are right.

Arguments of both sides could prove to be right or wrong, depending from what point of view are taken. But arranger manufacturers often behave in a way that's hard to understand for some group (or majority) of the arranger users.

Roland, for instance, produce arrangers without sampler, therefore customers from Eastern Europe, who mostly perform music with specific instruments, prefere Korg (Pa80, Pa1x/pro, Pa800, Pa2x) or Yamaha (PSR9000Pro, Tyros 1/2).

In the upper case, one could also conclude that arranger-with-sampler (or 76-keys-arranger in "our" case) market is too small, and Roland (Yamaha) refuse to make such "non-profitable" product.

IMHO If someone is selling some product for quite long time, there is market for it, and it's profitable. Therefore if someone claims Yamaha doesn't produce 76-keys arranger because it's not profitable (or because they wait to see how the market would respond, and it lasts for decades) he is definitely wrong.

Why the Yamaha behaves in such manner, we can only guess, but will not know, for the same reason we don't know why Roland kicked out chor sequencer. ;-)

'Yamaha are shrewdly focused on maximising their profit. That doesnt mean that the 76 arranger market isnt profitable but it might mean that yamaha cant maximise their profits from this as opposed to other uses of their capital.'

I qouted myself because it seems people are being very selective about what they read or provide as evidence of the folly of yamaha neglecting this 'substantial' 76 key aranger market .

kalimero

From your post you have demonstrated that the purchase of the 76 key PA1x pro or any of the Korg PA range had nothing to do with the keys but everything to do with the features of the instrument and styles of music that you might produce that use specific instruments that need to be sampled into your keyboard to play, did i get that about right ?

Buying any of the PA range, 800,pa1x/pro,PA2x makes perfect sense regardless of keys. Trust me korg knows this which is why they have a fully featured sampler built in and not the recorder that yamaha has. Go to you tube and type in Korg pa1x and see how many demos feature eastern european musicians ! Type in tyro and you will see the typical yamaha arranger customer (aprat from Mr Voncken or petter Baartman). In fact this is the one feature that distuinguishes korg from the rest and illustrates the brigding the gap between home and pro users that i pointed out in my previous post.

There is a much stronger argument for yamaha to target more tightly their eastern europan customers. They have the PSRA1000 i think for that type of music but as you say it does not have a sampler . As Eastern european music becomes more accessible i am sure this emphasis will shift and more companies will market directly to it as i know korg does and roland does to an extent with the G7 but i know the instruments are highly priced compared to earnings in that part of the world and the capacity for ordinary people (home musicians which is yamaha's target market ) to buy these relatively expensive instruments is small. If yamaha wanted to target eastern european customers they would do well to add a proper sampler. They might do this yet . Keep your fingers crossed.

Can you see how adding another 76 key arranger may not maximise yamaha's profit given that in the excellent example you just gave at least some proportion of the 76 key arranger purchases worldwide was mainly for the sampler and NOT FOR THE EXTRA KEYS? It was definately a feature that attracted me to the Korg over and above the T2 and G70 amongst other things.

Thanks for adding a fresh angle to the debate (not war ) :-).



[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 04-04-2008).]