Sad fact is, Gary and Ian... Until the poll, you were touting NO potential customers. As politics are showing, there's nothing more more pathetic than a zealot that cannot recognize when the figures don't agree with your world view.

A small, but significant percentage of this, the forum that you believe represents a small proportion of all arranger users, extrapolates into a MUCH larger figure... In fact, the very figure that every arranger manufacturer OTHER than Yamaha is making a profit from right now.

You know, if the majority of SZ members somehow came on board, and Ian and Gary weren't the only ones putting a good show on for their favorites, I might be swayed. But, after all, we are democratic, here in the West. If you can't come up with the numbers, you can't win (unless we in Florida decide to recount your vote!) no matter how many times you come up with absurd apologia...

The facts are... there IS a demand for the product. And Yamaha refuse to make the product for reasons that have NOTHING to do with demand, feasibility or profitability (every other manufacturer already knows this). No other reason than corporate divisional rivalry makes any sense in the light of the facts.

Unless, of course, you are blinded by zealotry. Me, I've got NO stakes in the discourse, other than disgust at the spinelessness of Yamaha to sate a proven market need for the sake of corporate divisional tactics. Yamaha zealots, on the other hand, seem hell bent to come up with ANY absurd answer, I guess to compensate for the fact that they can't think of anything more realistic than 'They don't do it, therefore it MUST be right'...

Sorry, guys, but other than the existence of our Lord, I need better arguments than that. Yamaha is not MY religion...

Go into any Yamaha or Independent music dealer anywhere in the world, and they will all give you the same information. “There is no demand for a Yamaha 76 Note Arranger”

Bill

I was going to stay out of this discussion but i couldnt let Diki'S point go. Do the numbers from this poll represent what people in the real world would do ?

do you really believe that Diki ?

What proportion of people who frequent this site as members actually cared enough to vote? And of the people who voted how many actually use their arranger for a living or on a semi commercial basis ? What proportion use their instrument at home only ? Analsye the poll Diki ! Thats what a serious business would do......

Now look at the real market. In your own mind Diki are you confident that the proportion of users that voted for a 76 key version would be replicated out there amongst the buying public ? What proportion of users in the real world are gigging musicians and which are home users? Which market do you think makes the most money for yamaha ?

I keep saying this. Yamaha KNOW THEIR CUSTOMERS AND THEIR MARKET. The inter departmentental competition between yamaha' arranger lines and its DGX line and their pro instruments are only one of numerous reasons yamaha dont feel the need to enter the very small 76 key arranger market. Thier product range is highly segmented and targeted. Alright. Now i am done

No offense, Spalding, but you are as much in the dark as anyone else.

Have YOU got any other figures for us to look at?

It might have been unscientific, but at least it wasn't conjecture. The question was asked, the responses came in. Do your own poll. Come up with contradictory figures. Or for God's sake, accept the truth... Like I said, nothing more pathetic that someone that refuses to acknowledge facts that don't agree with your world view.

This moronic faith in corporate decisions, despite overwhelming (like I said, PROVE US WRONG) evidence to the contrary, is a little disturbing... Is there anything in the recent behavior of large corporations that leads you to expect rationality and a respect for actual customer NEEDS? Anti-competitive behavior, and corporate greed and malfeasance seem more the rule than the exception these days.

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 04-01-2008).]

not all Diki. i know that this forums active user population does not represent the market. I believe you do too....

'This moronic faith in corporate decisions, despite overwhelming (like I said, PROVE US WRONG) evidence to the contrary, is a little disturbing... Is there anything in the recent behavior of large corporations that leads you to expect rationality and a respect for actual customer NEEDS? Anti-competitive behavior, and corporate greed and malfeasance seem more the rule than the exception these days.'

You just prove my point Diki. Corporate behaviour is driven by one thing only....profit. I have no faith if (thats the right word) in any company. I have no loyalty to Yamaha or any company. If Yamaha have got it wrong in this issue then they have got it wrong in a profitable way. If they could make more profit i am sure they will consider it soon enough.Maybe your right, who knows ? But i understand the fundemental drivers of all profitable business Diki. Give them a vehicle to make a net increase in their profits and they will take it.

And please dont describe my understanding of business principles as 'moronic'whther they are applied to yamaha's marketing strageies or any other business. You dont know anything about my back ground or experience. I would not and have not been disrespectful to you. Its a discussion.We debate,we question and sometimes we agree on things as i have with you in the past, sometimes we disagree. Lets just keep it that way. If i have offended you in some way with my posts i apologise. It was not meant to offend.

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 04-01-2008).]

Actually, I DO believe, for better or worse, that we DO represent the market, at least the portion of the market that has any opinion at all (where do the 'rest of the market' post?).

And, fortunately for me, and a LARGE percentage of the rest of SZ, so do Roland, Korg, Ketron, Wersi, Lionstracs, Bohm and Casio (did I miss anybody?). So, on behalf of all these other players in the market (scoff all you like, they ALL are making a profit form a segment of the market Yamaha CAN'T), I would like to thank Yamaha for not having the cojones to try to compete.

At least it spares Ian from the embarrassment of me detailing exhaustively (like I have for Roland) all the flaws in THEIR OS as well..

Trust me, I would find them!

double post. sorry

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 04-01-2008).]

Spalding, the only thing that offends me is the 'faith' in corporate decisions. Moronic is only the politest term I could come up with THAT concept, in the face of the last few years of unremittingly bad decision making from the corporate sector. You can't POSSIBLY be trying to tell me that ALL corporate decisions are driven entirely by the market...

As far as I can see, corporate decisions are driven by what best profits the corporate officers, not the shareholders or the public (or the country that shelters them and makes their profits possible).

I see your argument, particularly as you have no better information about Yamaha's market research or intra-divisional agreements than any of the rest of us, as a blanket trust in the power of the market and the infallibility of the corporate structure. Which the failures of many large corporations (does the current sub-prime meltdown speak well for long-term corporate decision making?) completely refutes.

The truth is, especially in our age of deregulation and emasculation of anti-trust and anti-competitive statutes, the concept of a free market and transparent competition between market forces is a joke. Dominating a market (which, in truth, Yamaha only dominate a SEGMENT of the arranger market, so you can't truthfully even say that Yamaha IS the market leader, only in the one area that they chose to compete in) is often achieved by RESTRICTING competition, and by anti-competitive measures, rather than by simple market forces.

But, in fact, you have only to admit to yourself that the last time you said ANYTHING bad about ANY corporation's tactics, methods, decisions or direction is all the proof we need. Let's face it, if ANY corporation could be wrong, then Yamaha could be, too... All you have is faith.

But if no corporation could EVER be wrong... Then God help us all.

It is ironic, but the only thing that could persuade me to use a current Yamaha arranger...would be an improved 9000 Pro..Am I the only one here that thought it was their only professional arranger..A keybed that was playable, and sturdy construction, and 76 keys to boot...and no stupid speakers that can not be utilized in a real performing venue..[non home use]..

And it didn't seem like it came from a toy store..

All Yamaha had to do..was support it correctly with updates..It was not a winner, because Yamaha chose to make it fail..Tells me just how smart Yamaha is..right..

Well, I DON'T agree that SZ does represent the market...and I can tell that you don't seem to grasp the basic principals of good business....but that's okay,...I still respect your opinions even if they are wrong.

Yamaha has the easiest to use OS, and that is only part of their success...the rest is because of their brilliant marketing.

AND...we must not forget the the excellent third party support...it is light years ahead of the competitors.


Roland arranger sales have been dismal...according to salespeople it is because they aren't user friendly out of the box, and the OS is considered tough to navigate...critical flaws in my opinion...and exacerbated by Roland's inability and/or lack of interest in correcting them.

Two of the prominent G-70 OS blunders; the ACC cutting off on Chord Type changes; the Style EQ values not getting recorded in the Sequencer and Recorder, still have not been addressed in spite of insistent complaints on Roland Arranger forum by you and others.

IF Yamaha has any OS flaws, they aren't in any way interfering with the target user's enjoyment, something I can personally attest to from doing many clinics.

Roland's only hope is to bring out a TOTL arranger that can successfully compete with Yamaha and Korg...and potential customers should also hope the glaring OS problems associated with the G70 are fixed so that they don't turn up in the next G-series.


BTW...the rest of the market post on the manufacturer's user forums....these provide a much better and more accurate indication of how an instrument is received.

Ian