It is is easy for the "armchair keyboard designers" to say how simple(and inexpensive)it is for Yamaha to make a 76 note arranger...but talk is cheap unless they have solid information, like facts and figures, to back it up.

I think Yamaha is wise not to wade into the murky waters of a 76 note arranger production unless the market actually shows that these instruments will turn a good profit.

The members of SZ probably represent a tiny fraction of the overall keyboard market as Gary has pointed out, and many of the members would not buy a Yamaha no matter how many keys it had...brand loyalty is strong with quite a few forumites.

I want a compact and light arranger so 61 keys are perfect for my needs, and Yamaha seems to think this way as well.

It does not make good business sense to "dominate" an unsuccessful or barely thriving market, and if the very poor sales of Roland's G70 and E-60 are any indication of what to expect, then Yamaha has wisely decided to tread on the side of caution.

Maybe Korg's PA2Xpro will do well and give a proper indication that there is a viable market for a 76 note arranger, but I have my suspicions that the sales will be mediocre at best.

Yamaha is the industry leader for a reason....wise and careful decisions based on fact, not conjecture, or, least of all, the results of a forum poll.

Ian

Ian.The problem is that yamaha is driven by sound business principles and not wishful thinking synthzoners. There is simply not enough demand to support yamaha diversiifying an already highly successful product. Demand must translate into profit. Would yamaha derive extra profit by producing a 76 key keyboard ? I dont think so. The arranger market is a small niche market, those players that want a 76 keyboard is a fraction of that niche, those 76 keyboard champions that would play a yamaha keyboard is a fraction of that fraction of that niche....those players that would buy a yamaha 76 instead of a yamaha 61 will cannabalise the sales of the 61 not increase it or are people sugseting here that yamaha drop their most successful aranger product in place of the 76 key experiment ??? That would be a smart business move right ??????. Remember profit is the motive and rightfully so.The tyros brand is doing incredibly well. It would take a very gungho product manager to mess with that formula. It was tried before with the psr 9000 pro. That sold loads didnt it ????? or did it ???? Give yamaha a good business reason to make a 76 keybaord version and they will. It is really that simple.

[This message has been edited by Spalding 4 (edited 03-27-2008).]

Just a question...if 76 notes are so popular, and the G70 and E-60 are so great(according to you and Fran, at least) why are the sales for these instruments so appalling?

The dealers I work with tell me the G70 has been a very poor seller, and the E-60 is even worse.

That doesn't seem like 76'ers are a runaway success in the Roland camp.

Blame it on Roland's marketing if you wish, but Roland's G70 and E-60 are marketed differently here in Canada and are sold alongside Tyros2 and S900 and according to my sources, i.e. salespeople and dealers, Yamaha outsells them both by a very wide margin.

Your argument doesn't hold any water, Diki...there's a big hole in your bucket.

Yamaha is clearly smart enough to avoid trying to dominate a market that is far from proven.

Ian

I agree completely, Spalding, you make good sense...wishful thinking doesn't put money in the coffers.

Well, I'm off on a Yamaha road trip...I'll check in when I get to my hotel and see how this debate is fairing out....should be interesting.

Ian

Here is what I find amazing comparing a 61 key keyboard with a 76 key keyboard:

The Yamaha Tyros 2 weighs in at 32 lbs without a hard disk. The Korg Pa2xpro with 76 keys weighs in at 39.68 lbs with a hard disk and a motorized display. A 5 lb difference. Both keyboards very lightweight considering the features they pack.

In the size category the Tyros is 44.8 inches wide while the Pa2xpro is 47.52 inches wide. A little under 2.5 inches difference between a 61 key keyboard and a 76 key keyboard. Don't forget the Korg has two keys and a Joystick placed in the same location as the Tyros 2!

The Pa2xpro is an amazing 14.37 inches deep compared to the Huge 17.7 inches of the Tyros 2.

Bottom line is that Korg has found a way to stuff a 76 keybed in a workstation without adding large amounts of size and weight.

Even if we were to take your word that Yamaha T2 and PSR 900 (61 keys) outsells Roland G70 and E 60 (76 keys) it is a flawed argument to make that 76 keys do not sell.


Look we all know that it is not the keybed, keyfeel or number of keys that sell the Yamaha arrangers it is sounds, styles and OS. And apparently, a number of people prefer Yamaha to Roland, Korg and Ketron.

The reason why Yamaha refuses to listen to its customers is because of the unsuccessful of 9000 pro. But the problem with the 9000 was not the 76 keys but the glitches in the OS that it was oversized and over weight. Their refusal to make a 76 key arranger has nothing to do about Yamaha thinking a 76 key arranger would not sell as much as the 61 key arranger.


If the Roland G70 had the same size and weight as the T2 and had 61 keys, are you telling me that Roland would be the same as a T2 in terms of sales.
If when the T2 was unveiled with the innovative SA voices and styles, it was 76 keys in stead of 61 keys are you telling me that the T2 would not have sold as much as it did?

Its all about sounds styles and OS.

As Yamaha has proven with the PSR 900 and T2, undesirable looks of the keyboard, a poorly built body and keyfeel and keybed does not decrease sales as long as the sounds, styles and OS are the best.

So it begs the question, what are they afraid of with 76 keys?

When the New T3 comes out a TOTL 76 key Yamaha arranger will be forgotten into all the the hype we will have to endure, people are Salivating for a new TYROS 3......
Great Sounds & Styles Trumps all else.
Even if Yamaha considers 76 in the future it will be Years away if at all.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-27-2008).]

With respect thats a back to front argument. The correct question is why should Yamaha make a 76 key keyboard ? What is the profit motive ? What are the threats to their profits if they dont ? What are the threats to their profit if they do ?

Until you can provide a business argument to address these four basic questions then everything else is wishfull thinking. It doesnt matter what yamaha "could do ". doesnt matter if they could move the modulation wheels anywhere else, make the keyboard lighter etc. Why should they do it in terms that they understand i.e profit?

Then they will listen.

Comparing Korg to the tyros makes no sense. Even if i prefered 76 keys i would still have bought the Korg over the Tyros because the korg is a fully featured arranger workstation sampler synth !!! People who buy the PA range are much more into creation and experimentation. Korg know their product market and differntiate their products accordingly. Yamaha know their customers and differentiate their products accordingly.

If the PSR900pro failed simply because of a buggy operating system then they would have produced a revised OS updates as they have with every bugged out keyboard they ever produced just like korg are having to do with the PA2X and the PA1x pro before it but it would not have stopped them from producinganother 76 keyboard would it ? They would not have dropped the keys just for that !!! Thats like saying the number of keys affected the operating System so if we drop the keys we will sell more bugged out boards !! Anyway i am just playing with you.

lets stick to the one discussion. Will 76 Keys on a yamaha T2 Sell more T2s and increase yamahas profits relative to the potential to loss of sales .

On a lighter note. I would love to see yamaha produce a 76 note keyboardf just to make everyone happy and focus on making music !


[This message has been edited by Spalding 4 (edited 03-27-2008).]

Why doesn't Steve Demming who is most likely reading all this stuff along with many other Yamaha team associates....relay the 76 POLL & thoughts info to Yamaha R&D or whomever is the High Archy in the Yammy Arranger KB decision Design team. Maybe they could provide a definitive answer to settle all this 76 wish-listing.

Couple of points here...firstly it depends on what instrument you learnt to play on..if you played piano the 76/88 is a must, if you played organ then 61 is acceptable, remember the worlds most fantasic pipe organs have only 61 or 56 note keyboards.
When Laurens Hammond started manufacturing the Tonewheel organ he only put a 25 note pedal boards on them, not a full size 32 note board...why? because he found that most players found 25 pedals were enough and the extra cost of putting a full pedal board on was not commercially viable. (The RT3 was produced in smaller quantities to satify the need for full padel boards)

I must admit I am begining to hate the number 76, I see it see so much on this forum being bandied around....61 notes are here to stay...get used to it or buy a separate 76 note Midi controller to satify your 76 note addiction.

Pasa