And what experience, if any, other than some part time demoing and working in a store have YOU had, Ian...?

You EVER work for Yamaha R&D? Marketing (other than store work)? Read a book (Let's play the Yamaha way!)?

Unsubstantiated claims are the last refuge of the braggart...

Humor us... just ONE provable fact. One teensy weensy factoid that fits the facts. C'mon, don't be shy...

The one thing that strikes a resonance with me is the "interdivisional competition".

I saw it with both Natwest Bank and Avco, particularly amongst the sales divisions even at as low a level as in the local branch. (This was "ENCOURAGED" by the way, by senior management!!)

With Natwest it was most discernible between the so-called "consumer and corporate" divisions, where excellent products would not be allowed to be sold by both because it would detract from the overall business targets of the other.

I am not saying I agree with it, but it DOES happen, a lot more than perhaps many people realise, unless they are amongst it.

It would not surprise me to find out (if ever!!) that the pullback of the "new" Roland arranger was in fact a divisional thing between the "pro" division and the "home user" division.

From what I heard it was going to have many of the new Fantom features PLUS the arranger part.
So who knows maybe Roland use a similar marketing strategy???

Point being it would not surpise me in the least that the ONLY reason Yamaha do not market a 76 note Tyros (as I figure thats what we are all talking about) is to not impinge on the sales targets of their various divisions.
Add that to the stunning success of the Tyros series in its 61 note form, and, well, for me, that's the answer.
Dennis

[This message has been edited by miden (edited 04-03-2008).]

T2, S900, whatever...

So far, I just can't grok how Yamaha would lose if a 76 S900 comes out.

Let's say that 25% of S900 users actually made the switch (unlikely, but possible)... The total number of Yamaha arrangers sold has not changed one iota. And the increase in profits (you make more off a more expensive model) is modest, but there. The cost of re-tooling for a 76 is miniscule to say something like the T3's development, as only the case needs a redesign (the OS and sounds, engine, I/O and display remain identical), and probably the modest increase in profits would cover this. Remember, being #1 in the market with volume of sales has already brought the price of the internal componentry down below it's competition (volume=lower costs), so it's less of a burden on Yamaha than say Roland...

BUT.... now add in the legions (OK, OK, but still a significant number) of fans of the Yamaha that are forced to use something else because of the lack of a 76. That's entirely gravy... Money Yamaha would have NEVER made without the 76 option. The poll showed just how significant the numbers of players here that prefer 76, given the choice. Even if as few as 15% of those would either switch or add a S900-76 (remember, you don't HAVE to get rid of your TOTL when an S900 is so affordable), ask any Yamaha salesman if he'd like to gain an additional 7% of the market next year, ask him what HE'D think of the idea... That's not chump change in anyone's book.

I really don't see how this even effects the DGX salesmen, as they don't even HAVE a product in the @$2k range. As I said, I think Yamaha would be mistaken to try testing this market out with something even MORE expensive than a T2, but a 76 S900 would give Roland and Korg a hard run... Their 61 S900 already does, why are they not going for the jugular?

Marketing? Lack of it, I'd say...

'There has been no evidence that there is not a substantial market for 76 keys or that a 76 key would turn away those who have used 61. In fact there has been overwhelming evidence to the contrary.'

Where is this overwhelming evidence that there is a substantial market for 76 key arranger products ?

There is definately a market for 76 key instruments but is there one for the 76 key Arranger market big enoug for everyone to sell in and make good enough profit ?

We have been going round and round but if you focused on this specific point then you would see the fatal flaw in the idea that everyone can make a good profit in this niche market.

There is also a clear distinction between the wants and needs of the pro user and the home user. similarly there is a huge difference in market share in terms of sales of arranger keyboards for those customers that are strictly home users compared to pro users.

Who does yamaha gear its sales to in terms of arranger keyboards and why ? Could profit margins have anything to do with it ? Could concepts like returns on investment have anything to do with it ?

Does anyone deny that the yamaha range of arranger products from the lowliest psr right through to the flagship Tyros2 are geared towards the home user ?
HAVE YOU EVER BEEN TO A TYROS 2 DEMONSTRATION AND LOOKED AT THE PEOPLE THAT ATTEND ?

Clearly some of you have not!

Why do you think both Korg and Roland made diferent size arranger keyboards ? Were they aimed at the same market ? But surely by some of the arguments that have been put forward having 76 keys would not prevent a customer from buying an arranger keyboard so why two diiferent key sizes and why not exactly the same keyboard. EG the PA2X has much larger sampling Ram and different pro focused outputs for recording and performing when compared to the Pa800. The same for the speakerless G70 compared to the E80.

Those that cant see the sense in yamaha focusing on producing only the 61 key version of arrangers have all argued that the market is not sensitive to more keys , only less keys right ?

Perhaps , just perhaps Korg , Roland etc understand that there are differences within those customers that might buy an arranger keyboard ? I.E some need more keys and pro features and surprisingly some dont.

The question is , are there wide enough profit margins for both and if so what about when more companies fight for a share of the diminishing profit?

If yamaha dip into the marginal pro arranger market with a 76 key version then the 76 key market will be further diluted and what meagre profits there are will be further stretched. It wont increase the overall pro arranger keyboard market volume. Yamaha make their money from the home arranger keyboard market very well .

They have pro synth products already which again they are clearly within the top 3 profit making manufacturers and they have both 88,76,and 61 key versions of EXACTLY THE SAME KEYBOARD as the pro synth market is sufficiantly WELL DEVELOPED and MATURE.

Incidentally you wont find the same garish colours , multiple christmas tree lights and drum symbols above the keys in their pro line of instruments as you do on their home instruments .These are the same features that many of the pro users here who want 76 key arrangers have complained about.But surprisingly the home market are not so concerned. In fact some of them find the drum cybals above the keys very user friendly.

Does Yamaha know something about marketing to its customers that some of the guys on here obviously dont ?

However the pro arranger market is tiny compared to the pro synth market.So there is less room for profit and consequently less room for error.

If you cant see the difference in the markets,in profit margins, in returns on investment , if you dont understand conepts such as dilution etc then of course it will seem idiotic for yamaha not to produce a 76 key arranger.

I mean there are so many synthzoners that want it yamaha are fools not to produce one right ?




[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 04-04-2008).]

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 04-04-2008).]

Well if the fact that every dealer in the world is saying there is not enough demand for a Yamaha 76 note arranger is not enough evidence, then I don’t know what is. (There the ones that have to try and shift them)
BTW if you don’t believe me, ring up or email some dealers and ask the question

Bill

I took basic marketing in college, plus several seminars with Yamaha.

Now, why do I have to provide you with anything?

I don't have to prove anything...the proof is right in front of you.

Yamaha is the leader in arranger sales.

Obviously there is some brilliant marketing strategy going on right under your nose but you can't(or won't) see it, in spite of this being pointed out by several other learned forumites.

You need to prove to Yamaha that the market is viable...not the other way around...and so far you have little more than an inaccurate poll and statements that are unsubstantiated and based on conjecture.


Ian





[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-04-2008).]

Correctomundo, Bill....my direct experience with several dealers in my area, and also the ones I deal with on the Internet bears this out.

Just the dismal sales of G70 and E-60 should be enough to convince anyone...except a few die-hard individuals that don't understand basic marketing principals.

Ian

Well it seems as if the Yamaha apologist still are not getting it and continue to have a lot of inconsistencies in their arguments.


First up there is an argument that the G70 and the E60 sales are not doing well. By putting the G70 and the E60 together shows a lack of understanding of the arranger keyboards and only proves my point. The G70 is 76 keys with out speakers and the E60 is 76 keys and with speakers. So putting them together is wrong.
Secondly the G70 is quite heavy of a keyboard; and in actuality the heaviness has nothing to do with 76 keys.
And thirdly, the poster proved my point in lumping those keyboards together. It shows that by saying that a 76 key keyboard and a 76 key keyboard with speakers are not doing well in sales. 76 keys is not the reason for the “lack of sales” (if there is even a lack of sales). Obviously there are other reasons.

No one has shown that just by the fact that a keyboard has 76 keys it would decrease Yamaha arranger sales. People have only shown that other reasons (like sounds, OS weight and size …) would prevent persons from doing so.


The other problem that the apologist run in to in their argument is that internal rivalry and one division would take away sales from the other is a reason for Yamaha not making a 76 key arranger. How ever, they also acknowledge that the workstation and arranger markets are 2 different markets. So there is a problem in that argument.

Additionally, they say that there is no evidence that a 76 key arranger is in demand. Apparently, Roland with the G1000, VA 76 G70, E60 and so on think so.
Korg with the PA1x pro and the PAx2x pro think so.

Ketron with the Sd1 and soon to come Audia think so.

Lionstrack with the Mediastation think so.


The point that I am making is that if there were no market, then these companies would not have continued to make 76 key arrangers. They would have stopped after the first one.
As a smart business strategy, they realize that having 76 keys does not hurt their sales it will only increase sales. That is what Yamaha and their apologist do not get.
Any problems with sales for those keyboards are not with the fact that they are 76 keys but with other factors.

What the apologist are really saying is Yamaha is right because they are right. If they were wrong then they would have fixed it. But since they have not fixed it therefore they are right. They further believe that Yamaha is only wrong if they admit they are wrong but they are right all of the time.

And the other companies are wrong because they are not Yamaha. This discussion has shown that there is a blind belief and faith in Yamaha and that Yamaha can do no wrong. There are know facts, no sound business and marketing arguments to support the apologist points.

It is very scary when I actually am starting to believe Diki’s contention that some people have Yamaha as a Religion.


[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 04-04-2008).]

No it doesn't, Genny.

All it shows is that you and a few others don't understand very basic marketing.

Nothing else.

If you are starting to believe Diki's contentions, it is pretty scary...and perhaps a bit foolhardy.

He doesn't know what he's talking about any more than you do.

You both are trying to justify your shortsightedness by saying the letters on the eye chart are too small.

You can discuss this in circles all you want, but the FACT remains that Yamaha will make whatever it wants, whenever it sees fit to do so, and no amount of empty criticism and harping on your part will do anything to change it.

You are, as they say here on Cape Breton Island, "rowing with one oar".

Ian


[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-04-2008).]

That’s just it. there has not been a discussion on basic marketing.

There has been only you and a few others contention that you are right because you believe in Yamaha.

No facts, no analysis that is reasonable. There has been only circular analysis. I.E Yamaha is right because they are right so therefore I am right.

And why should I think you are right about Yamaha when you show that you have no concept of profits and marketing and can not even get my screen name right?