I don't need to make a case, Diki, and I honestly don't want to make an ass out of you. Why should I take all the credit for the one thing you've done yourself?

You seem to think I have to prove something to you.

Get serious...you started this discussion, yet when you can't make a valid point, you get frustrated and out comes the sharp tongue.

Well, buddy, a sharp tongue does not mean a keen mind....except in my case, of course.

So please try and control yourself.

I don't want to have to scold you again....next time, it's over my knee.

Contact Yamaha...I'm sure they'll listen to you....at the very least, you'll be kept busy and thus allow those of us who wish to continue with this discussion to carry on.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-06-2008).]

So listen about this chord sequencer thingy......anyone ever hear of it? Is there a practical use for it?

Dnj,

You ask yourself where did this all went wrong?

Well it seems to me that it went wrong from the very beginning. From the initial question of the pool which was:

"This poll is to determine how many keys arranger keyboard players want on their keyboard. Brand names are insignificant--just the number of keys."

We came to a question:

"Why Yamaha doesn't manufacture 76-keys arranger?"

And that lead us to two answers:

"76-keys arranger market is not profitable - therefore Yamaha doesn't produce 76-keys arrangers (anymore, or until further notice)"

and

"76-keys arranger market is profitable - therefore Yamaha is not listening to the appeals of numerous (potential) customers"

I am afraid I'll disappoint some (or all) members here, but I don't think there is such "thing" like "76-keys arranger market".

It's more like there is:

- low budget arranger market (home and amateur users)
- middle budget arranger market (advantage home users and some professionals)
- high budget arranger market (professionals)

Number of keys (and key feel/quality) is just one feature of the arranger keyboard, and almost all arrangers with 76 keys have so many other features, and cost so much that the number of the keys rarely play important role in buying decision.

Most of the complaints regarding arrangers on this (and some other) forum is: it doesn't sound good, I don't like the interface, I miss that feature, it's too heavy, but I still haven't seen anyone complaining: It has too many keys. :-)

'Where is the justification for the 9000Pro?

This is the apple that upsets the cart... You can't keep constantly asserting that there IS no market, there never WAS a market, there will never BE a market for a 76 Yamaha.'

How many times can you miss the point Diki?

Read the title of the keyboard you have just qouted and you will see who that instrument was aimed at. Let me give you a hint. P-R-O .... It was the one time yamaha targeted an arranger product at the pro market and not specifically the home user. It failed for whatever reason. poor OS system ? maybe but then they could have simply updated the OS right ? And its not to say they will never build another 76 Key arranger again. But in their line up of arranger products there seems to be one for every price point and for each segment of the market from beginner to more experienced but none for the 76 key slot. They must have been really spooked by something.

Kalimero said

'I was quite surprised when I read that PSR-9000 Pro was unsuccessful for Yamaha because here it was one of the most desirable pro-keyboards (because of the included sampler, and quality of the keybed), and it still holds high reselling price.'

Thanks again for simply illustrating the point. No matter how sought after the PSR9000pro was and still is yamaha never pursued the sales from eastern eurpoe professionals. Why do you think that was and still is ? Let me suggest that there simply was not enough sales volume or margin to make it worthwhile to yamaha. Other companies might see the smaller profits there as desirable. Yamaha dont.

When i first started out in my business we got our salesmen to pursue volumes of sales to build up a client base and to get established as salesmen. That meant chasing very low premium/value sales. As they got better at selling they stopped chasing low premium sales and went for higher value sales whilst the younger less experienced salesmen chasec the small value sales. some of the most successful salesmen would simply ignor leads from the lesser value potential sales because it simply was not worth their time. It was profitable for the the inexperienced employees because they did not have the marketing skills to target higher value customers and were greatful for any additional sales they could get.

Just because a sale is profitable does not mean that it is worth the salesmans time. Thats very relavent in this discussion. Yamaha simply exhibits a more established slaespersons profile.

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 04-04-2008).]

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 04-04-2008).]

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 04-04-2008).]

kalimero,

You make some very valid points in your post.

I do think, however, that the high budget arranger market is not comprised solely of professionals.

It has been my experience that most of them are purchased by amateurs or home players...pros are a minority.

Some pros use middle budget arranger as well...I use an S900 and it is perfect for my needs.

What do you (or would you) use for an arranger?


Ian

Sorry Tony--The Tooth Fairy is gone--Easter Bunny told me she flew the coop!

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

OH MY GOD !
Stooooooooooop! You guys are worse than my kids! Enough already. Please.

Ian,

Regarding target users for specific price ranges, I do agree that high budget arrangers are not bought only by professionals, but here majority of the users that do buy it are professionals, because this price range is way out of the home/amateur users. Also, here many professionals use middle budget arrangers.

You have to take into account that high end arrangers like Tyros2, Roland G-70 and Korg Pa-2xPro, here costs around 3.000 EUR (4.500 USD) and the average monthly salary is 620 EUR (900 USD) so it would not be a wise decision to buy something just for entertainment and work almost half year to pay it off. Therefore, only professionals (who earn money by performing on arrangers) can afford to buy them. Situation over there might be different, but here, that's the case.

I'm considering to buy Korg Pa-500 (should be available on the market within a month or so) primarily because it has lots of features and the price is not far from European (950 EUR or 1400 USD). Rolands are to hard to find (just one dealer), and the prices are high (1700 USD for E-50, 2100 USD for E-60[my favourite]). Yamahas are easier to find but also too expensive (PSR S-900 for 2800 USD, PSR S-700 for 2000 USD). I would like to buy 76-keys arranger because I don't want to play it in arranger mode only, but also in piano mode.

My primary reasons to buy (or not to buy) an arranger, beside the price, is sound quality and features, not the number of keys, but if I could buy 76-keys keyboard with same features (and not to pricey) as 61-keys keyboard, I would prefere the 76-keys.

[This message has been edited by kalimero (edited 04-04-2008).]

kalimero,

I'm amazed at the high prices you have to pay...doesn't seem fair.

I use the S900, not for the money it saves me (which is a nice benefit) but for its portability....and it has most of the features of the Tyros2.

I like the action better than the Tyros2 as well...don't care much for semi-weighted keys...I'm a bit of an extremist as I like 88 weighted hammer for my piano playing, and a fly weight 61 key action for arranger but, ultimately it is me I am trying to please.

I don't like semi-weighted for piano...not enough resistance to dig into, but it sure seems to work for some.

The PA-500 seems a great value for the money and the main piano demo I heard is very nice...perhaps you could get a 76-note controller later on to expand the range as the Korgs seem to have good MIDI specs.

I'll be interested to hear your views on the Korg when you get it...we don't see them too much in my area.

Ian

spalding,

Tyros 2 might not have "Pro" in the name, but sure is considered Pro keyboard in the market I'm talking about, and would be sold at same volume even with 76-keys keybed.

Ian,

Prices in Europe are generally 1.5 times higher then USA prices (prices in EUR are equal or higher to prices in USD without conversion), and prices in Croatia are at least 30-50% higher then European, because of low sales volume, small number of sellers, and high commissions.

Importing from USA is not an option because of ridiculously high transport rates, and importing from Europe is not profitable because it rises the price for at least 30% (custom and tax fees) and you don't get a warranty.

We are just paying the price of (still) not being in EU. ;-)

Yamaha S-900 is probably "the most bang for a buck", and at least here, the biggest rival to Tyros 2 (and Korg Pa-800).

As for the "inter-divisional competition" Yamaha is the first one to introduce half-synth - half-arranger keyboard (MM6, and MM8 recently), and even before they had PSR-403 arranger-keyboard with some synth-like features.

Also, the newest Motif line (XS) have some of arranger-keyboard features (bunch of chord-sensitive arrpegios).