'Tyros 2 might not have "Pro" in the name, but sure is considered Pro keyboard in the market I'm talking about, and would be sold at same volume even with 76-keys keybed.'

(thanks for continuing to make great points Kalimero)

You have stated the case just in that sentence. The market you are talking about would buy the keyboard whether it had 76 keys or 61 so where is the incentive to make a 76 arranger keyboard even within the eastern european market ?

kalimero

You are absolutely right and many musicians in the western world use exactly your logic. The tyros is not geared to or marketed to the pro muscician but many pros in the arranger market pick the Tyros to make a living from despite

1.its toyish apearance ,
2. rubbish key feel
3. christmas tree lights
4. plastic poor build quality
5. and lack of 76 keys.

(these are not my opinions, these are the opionions of some of the pro's on this board ) But this is a spin off market. It is not the market that Yamaha put their effort to sell to. Can you see that ?

Who knows Kalimero, some time in the future yamaha may decide to market a board especially to the eastern eurpoean market. As i said before i think adding the sampler on the yamaha PSRA1000 might make a whole lot of sense and would not substantially increase the price point of the keyboard. There are no divisional issues as the A1000 is the only oriental/arabic easten flavoured instrument that they make in terms of arrangers i think and at an affordable price for that market.
It certainly would not take away tyros sales which i believe is the only other yamaha arranger product that has a sampler (recorder). In fact i am pretty sure that this could succeed. Why not drop yamaha a line ?

Also regarding arranger functions in pro keyboards like the Motif XS. Yes they do have some arranger qualities but will yamaha ever refer to them as arranger qualities ? Nope that would be a very bad marketing decision because there is still a stigma amongst pro users against arranger keyboards although this is changing. They could have literally just applied all the arranger functions that we are used to into the Motif XS but they didnt . Why do you think they did not ? They could have just stuck the Super articulation technology as it is into the Motif XS instead of what they have now but they didnt. Why not ? i posted much earlier in this discussion about cannabalisation of sales. Thats yamaha divisions stealing sales from each other instead of the competition without any net increase in profits. Its apparently a stupid theory but trust me yamaha understand it well and are mindful of it.

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 04-05-2008).]

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 04-05-2008).]

I have a Yamaha Motif xs-6 61 key.

Why 61 keys?

(a) I didn't want a board the size of a surfboard.
(b) the motif xs 6 61 key has different key structure than the 88 key motif. The 88 has weighted keys which if you like to play fast riffs at times is a tad clumsier than FSX keys. I like them as fast as I can get them without sacrificing quality.I dislike totally weighted keys.

However....for a concert or gig performance where you don't want to stop in the middle of the song to transpose or jump octaves, then a 71 or 88 would be the answer.
I don't gig. I write and structure songs etc.at home. So if I have to stop and transpose etc. it's not a problem for me.
But I wouldn't want to be doing this in front of an audience.

spalding,

There is no incentive to make 76-keys arranger (as explained earlier on example of Korg Pa-1x Pro and Yamaha Tyros), but the fact is that both Korg, Roland, Ketron, and some others produce TOTL arranger in 76-keys version (while some like Ketron doesn't have 61-keys option at all). As I also said before, there is no "76-keys market" just the fact that some professional arranger user sometimes need 76 keys when not using their instrument like OMB.

So I don't know why some manufacturers do produce 76-key arranger, and some don't. Some, like Roland even have middle-budget arranger in 76-keys version (E-60, EXR-7).

Yamaha already produce arrangers specifically for Easter-European market, like PSR-700 OR(iental), but it's priced almost the same as PSR-900. Roland also produce arrangers for Eastern-European market (EXR-40 OR) but it's hard to include all the instruments (and good samples) that would cover so many different ethnic groups. So this is the reason why anything with included sampler sells well here (especially Korg with their affordable models like Pa-80 before, and Pa-800 now).

You are quite right about synth market, and arranger players stigma amongst synth players, but that slowly changes. Some keyboard players in band now choose some TOTL arrangers because quality of sounds competitive to synths, and easier user interface (registrations ie. performances).

I like very much the way Yamaha decided to go (merging synth and arranger functionality). ;-)

Guise,
You are missing the point and ignoring the obvious. If there were absolutely no market for 76 keys for arrangers, Korg, Ketron and Roland would not be CONTINUING to make 76 key arrangers.

You know why they do? Because they realize that it does know harm and if done right would have minimal effect on R and D and production.

They know that persons who would buy a 61 key would also buy a 76 and the persons who would buy a 76 key would buy the 76 key arranger.
A profitable business strategy that Yamaha and its believers don’t seem to understand.

As this discussion is continuing to reveal, whether Yamaha makes a 76 key arranger has nothing to do with markets (from Yamaha current market prospective). In fact, the companies who would have something to worry about are Korg, Ketron Roland Lionstrack and others.

Hi Genesys
There is MINIMAL demand for a 76 note Yamaha Arranger; it’s as simple as that.
Do as I said in my previous posts, and you will have all the proof you need.
Regards

Bill

BTW I do not play a Yamaha and will not be purchasing any of the current Yamahas, (Great boards, but just not for me) therefore I have no Bias towards Yamaha.

That’s just it. There is no facts on the matter.

Through out this discussion, no one has shown or presented undisputed evidence that there is not a market for a Yamaha 76 key arranger and that a 76 key Yamaha arranger would have a negative effect on Yamaha.

If that were done, you would then also have to show that there is a substantial market for a 76 key arrangers in general. How else would you explain Roland, Korg and Ketron continually making 76 key arrangers?

There has been undisputed facts that people want:
A lightweight keyboard
A reasonable sized keyboard
A keyboard that is easy to transport
A keyboard that is not bulky.
We have not had facts where persons do not want 76 keys because they don’t want the extra keys.

Look guise, remember when there was that whole discussion about a sampler on an arranger? A lot of persons were saying an arranger player does not need a sampler. Those of us who wanted it were in the minority. One could argue that there was not a substantial market for a sampler on an arranger. But did Yamaha do? They included a “sampler” on the T2. Did that lead to decrease in sales of the T2? No.

The sampler did not get in the way of the regular use of the T2 and it did not bring the cost of the T2 up substantially if at all. Yamaha did that (included a feature on an arranger that they did not have a market for) because they needed a feature to advertise. They needed something new so that the T2 could be distinguish from the T1.

Hi Genesys
Korg, Roland, Wersi, Ketron etc, make them because players want them, however the aforementioned players don’t want a 76 note Yamaha arranger, (Although the most popular, not everybody wants a Yamaha) so there is no point in Yamaha making one. (Ask any music dealer anywhere in the world)
Regards

Bill

' They know that persons who would buy a 61 key would also buy a 76 and the persons who would buy a 76 key would buy the 76 key arranger.
A profitable business strategy that Yamaha and its believers don’t seem to understand.'

Ok Genesys. I cant say any more than i have already. If you had read the last four posts i made you would see that your statement makes no sense in reality to what the arranger market actually does as opposed to what you might think it would do.

The Roland 76 key arranger sales are poor whether they be the E50 or G70. Thats what the market actually indicates about real demand for 76 keys (its not an absolute fact, its simply an indication).

Sales of the Korg 76 key pro are better because it has a fully fledged synth/sampler and would sell well whether it had 61 or 76 keys. These features separate it from the home market and pro arranger communities in a very significant way.

If a manufacturer added a feature to the keyboard that costs no/minimal extra, did not increase the weight, size or reduce the function of the keyboard and you could either use the feature or not as you wish, tell me using your own common sense why you think it might affect the keyboards sales negatively ??????????

Thats why adding a sampler was a no brainer for yamaha !


Anyway it was fun discussing with you nd everyone that posted. I wont repeat myself.

Thanks so much for the polite and respectful way you have conducted yourself in this discussion. Cheers

Worth

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 04-06-2008).]

“The Roland 76 key arranger sales are poor whether they be the E50 or G70. That’s what the market actually indicates about real demand for 76 keys (its not
an absolute fact, its simply an indication).”
If we were to take the first sentence of that statement as true, it does not tell us any thing about 76 keys being profitable or not. It factually only tells us that those keyboards, by the same manufacture are not doing well.


If a survey were done, I am sure we will find that Roland arrangers generally do not do as well (in terms of sales) as Yamaha or Korg.
There are probably a number of reasons that can prove that point.
In the U.S distribution and Roland placing arrangers in hard to get locations is one factor.
The OS of Roland arrangers.
The sounds and styles of Roland arrangers
The weight and size of some Roland arrangers. Size and weight are not limited to the G70 (which is 76 keys) but also the E80 (which is 61 and unnecessary large and heavy).
It does not seem that the simple fact that an arranger is 76 keys causes the low sales for that arranger.


Well it has been a very good discussion and while we may have had different point of views throughout this discussion, at least we can agree on this one statement which is the whole point I was making for Yamaha making a 76 key arranger.


“If a manufacturer added a feature to the keyboard that costs no/minimal extra, did not increase the weight, size or reduce the function of the keyboard
and you could either use the feature or not as you wish, tell me using your own common sense why you think it might affect the keyboards sales negatively
??????????”

I rest my case……


Now off to another topic