This hasn't been brought up in a few years. If you are using a subwoofer at gigs, which one do you use? I'm searching for a good but not-too-heavy subwoofer.
I have heard that some use a Logitech computer speaker system for its sub. I have seen a Roland sub that is fairly small/light, made for use in conjunction with their keyboard amps. But I haven't tried/heard it.

I bought a Meyer Sound (very high end) sub, and it is incredible -but at 66 lbs. it's not exactly light. It's still the lightest pro subwoofer I could find; many were closer to 100 lbs. My Meyer Sound is a bit overkill (this co. makes speakers for stadiums and high end touring rigs etc). but I got it for relatively low weight. Now I wonder if there is anything else lighter but with enough power for say a 500-person gig where you want some "thump" on the dance floor?

Using Technics KN-7000 and Yamaha S900

Jim

Jim I believe weight and quality go together when it comes to a great sub woofer..

I use a Yorkville 700 watt sub woofer...weighs around 100 pounds..and it really does blow the windows out[as Gary always says]..

I use the sub only for the Logitech z5500 with 2 JBL Eon G2 10's. That sub will rattle the windows. 188 watts RMS. There is a volume boost if needed, but I only use a little of that, with plenty to spare.

It weighs only 34 lbs and I easily haul it using a rolling duffle bag. You can get them on approval if you need to order one.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002WPSBC/km-20/ref=nosim

I really think if you try this one out, your search will end

Best
Scott
http://ScottLMusic.com

Weight has absolutely NOTHING to do with quality--if it did all the Peavey speakers would be the best you could buy. The quality of a sub depends upon the length of the speaker's throw, and the material the speaker cone is constructed from. You can have a very light subwoofer and still blow the windows out of the venue. That Logitech Z-5500 sub is awesome. Fran, however, wouldn't know--he never tried or owned one.

Cheers,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

Can one use the Z5500 sub on it's own without the other speakers connected?

Trevor

I dont think a computer speaker like the Z5500 is gonna do the job efficiently at an affair with 500 people........
serious Sub/Bass requires serious
Sub Woofers w/serious Power.

I have an EV Sb120a 300w sub and I think it is fantastic. It weighs less than a Mackie i300 speaker and is the same size as the EV SX series enclosures. The current model is called Sb122 and I think there are other models out there. Great size, weight and SOUND. I picked my used model up for about $200 and haven't regretted it for one second. Quality is worth the price!
Sb122

[This message has been edited by cassp (edited 03-29-2008).]

Trevor, Yes you can, I use a line out of my Tyros to connect the sub, which gives you independant volume over the sub. Works great with my PSM10P self powered Crates.

Jim

People have to stop thinking of the Z-5500 as a "computer speaker system" ... I realize that's what they sell as, but there is NO ONE who would use these speakers to their FULL potential in a 'home' environment !!! ... Would they be adequate for a 'dance' gig for 500 people?, I can't say because I haven't played one ... BUT ... I have used the sub in a large outdoor setting, and augmented by a couple of 'slaves', they certainly were MORE than adequate ...
They ONLY way to find out is to try them !!!
t.

The Z-5500 5.1 Surround Sound System is based upon NEW TECHNOLOGY. It uses speakers that have a very long throw, and the sub delivers a full 188-watts RMS--not peak power.

Some of the older, extremely heavy subs used inch-thick cabinets made from particle board, which anyone that has been in the construction industry can attest, is extremely heavy. While it provides excellent accustic characteristics for the older, heavy-magnet speakers, the weight is brutal. Keep in mind that most sound system manufacturers are slowly but surely headed toward utilizing newer, lightweight materials for the cabinets, and they're switching to smaller, long-throw, space-age material speakers. I anticipate we will all see some dramatic changes in sound systems in the next few years. Some folks, however, will continue to struggle along with heavier gear. I just will not be among them.

Cheers,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

The word "BEST' in the subject title will always cause attitudes to fly aimlessly here on any topic & Without getting into the weight argument again.....just go out and look at what top DJ's are using as Sub Bottoms to couple with their top FOTH sound reinforcement gear....NO WHERE have I ever seen a Z5500 in any way shape or form....it simply cannot cut the mustard sound wise. If you want to fool yourself into thinking it can then Godspeed to you, If you want to skimp on YOUR sound be my guest.....sure they are just adequate for a OMB arranger act in small venues or back yard shindig, or in your living room but not at all appropriate for a 500 person affair....
But what do I know

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-29-2008).]

Donny, to use YOUR oft quoted statement - "Have you TRIED them" ?
And please, don't be so condescending to those of us that use them to say "If you want to skimp on YOUR sound be my guest", because believe me we are NOT ... Nor did I say that the Z-5500 used with the standard sats would suffice for a 500 person gig ...
The fact that the Z-55 subs may not be used by DJ does not MEAN that they couldn't be ... and how many DJ's sound sytems are 'over the top' just for the sake of trying impressing the public with more sound and gear than they ever need to USE ?!?!?
t.

Tony.....
Yes, I've heard the Z5500 before....
my buddy has them for his giant HD Plasma TV in his house....in that scenario they sound ok. That's what they were intended to do for not professional sound reinforcement. There just not something I would use.

Enjoy them.

Gee Whiz guys..I have heard many smaller sub woofers and they are just that "smaller sub woofers"
Nothing to do with manufacturer..Heck even the Roland sub woofer is a great smaller sub woofer...but even at 200 watts..it will not do the job the "BIG" boys can do...

All my experiences have shown the larger, heavier sub woofers are always superior..BTW: I recently checked out the monster Vega sub woofer [2200 watts]...unbelievable power...and they weigh a ton..

Tonight my 300 plus dance floor will be happy with the Yorkville system...besides the break DJ pumps thru a 20,000 dollar house system...guess what system sounds better.. ...that's right, the consensus of patrons say so...and the house system is no slouch...

I also believe the plastic housings not to be adequate for sub woofers...The construction makes a difference as they did 20 plus years ago....

I forgot to mention...the previous band at this venue used a pair of Bose with subwoofers...and everyone, and I mean everyone..say the Yorkville out punches the Bose.....even the band members that use the Bose...So much for modern technology..

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 03-29-2008).]

Ah yes--Antiquity! Hmmmmm! I wonder where that G-1000 is now?




------------------
Travlin' Easy

Fran...
Just curious. The place you mention above sounds very big. I'm guessing a commercial bar similar to ones I was familiar with in Sommers Point and Wildwood - wear I played while in college. What is the predominant age group at the above venue?

While I can't imagine the gear you are using would add anything for the audiences I play, and in fact, could even turn them off, I concede that the Bose (and maybe the Logitec Z's) does not pump out the bottom end that is almost mandatory at some of the venues that cater to younger crowds than I play to.

Even if I was younger and could wrestle the additional weight, the performing space that I am given has diminished where there is hardly room for a conventional setup.

But, I am interested in your description of the venue and the age group that patronizes it.

Eddie

Yes, larger, heavier, more powerful bass amps will put out more bass. The bass WILL be too loud, rattle the mirrirs in the bathroom, and leave you partially deaf each night and probably leave a few patrons with headaches on the ride home. The extra boominess that makes the bad dancers dance will not be able to tell if the highs and mids are proportionate because the volume will be so loud and in their face. You're right......modern technology just can't compete with the good old days.

I just did a sweet 16 party tonight with my L1 II system and only ONE Bose sub ..... the dance floor was never empty, I could hear every request that came to me ...even with my head only 12 inches from the tower.....which BTW, never fed back once even though my live mic was right there too.

The Bose is not for everyone. It's not for those resistant to change, or those who need to actually feel the bass rumble in their stomaches. It's a new and improved approach, and fill the bill 100% for it's target market. You'll never see some MTV rockers with Peavey gear, and you'll never convince an old school musician with hearing loss that this new, smoother system can do the job. Then again, just make him a cassette tape of the sound and have him play it back, while you stroll down memory lane........shouting at each other.

" So, Jeff.....I got a new hearing aid yesterday!"

"Oh yeah...what kind is it??"

"Hmmmm....almost 11:30 ! "


I love you guys....but not as much as I love my Bose.

Funny

Why do people have to play the bass so loud? - to me it's annoying and non-musical.

The Bose has the perfect bass blend - extremely musical and balanced. Detail is for the music aficionato.

I actually can understand why some people want to hear too much bass. It's the same reason stereo reccivers have a "loudness" control......more bass makes a fuller sound. It teases the ear into thinking it's thicker, better, more powerful. For a dancer, the bass is what drives the beat, not the drums, and if you are a bad dancer, like I am ..... more bass gives you a feeling in your gut that you're already in sync with the music. it's a lie, but hey - who's to judge?

The bass response in the Bose is more proportionate to any sub system I ever heard, yet the younger the crowd, or the more hearing loss ..... the more they need the bass to be grossly UNproportionate so they can "feel" the music.

I "feel" it at all levels, and my dancers seem to appriaciate the balance and reduced ear fatigue. It's a new way of thinking, and some people will never give it a chance. One thing is certain, at 53, I will never lift a 50lb speaker up on a stick ever again. If I need more coverage .... the venue will have to provide additional amplification. My setup is too, too efficient to even think of changing it.

Another place I like a good bass response is when I play a very different kind of music: organ music. I play both theatre organ style ("cinema" organ) as well as some classical. I bring my keyboard and a MIDI pedal board, and my Meyer Sound sub is particuarly good here, as it gets down to around 30Hz, needed for 16' pipe organ stops.

It doesn't need to be LOUD as much as full and clear (not boomy). And ideally it would be great to have a setup that gets this powerful but not TOO loud bass, around a large room without blasting people out that are closer to the sub. . .

Jim

Yep, good point, Dave...I use a small pair of Yamaha MS60S powered monitors...they work perfect in my type of venue, which is restaurant/dinner music...less than 25 lbs each...they use "Active Servo Technology" which gives a nice robust bass without being boomy...AND most of all...easy set up.

If I need more oomph, the venue rents(and sets up) additional gear, and I use my MS60S for monitors.

My days of lugging heavy gear are in the past...anything over 30 lbs gets tossed.

Ian

Great night last night..dancers were happy..The sub woofer was cooking, and the mirror in the bathroom cracked..

My wife went with me too...when we got home...she said she had a headache...

LOL Fran - great punch line

Well...no wonder !
( Doesn't that excuse get tired after a while? )

Here are some of the small sub come to mind:

1. FBT power sub(very expensive)
2. EV Sx series sub (passive)
3. Roland KWC-1 power sub
4. Bose MB4 (requires bose controller)

coca

I've reached an age where I'm praying to hear those words now.


chas

Chas,

I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but the situation will become somewhat reversed as you advance in years--I should know. I think she's trying to collect on the life insurance. "Yep, he's dead, but look at the smile on his face!"

Cheers,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

chas

Last night as i was going to bed, I brought my wife a glass of water and two aspirin.
She said what is that for, I don't have a headache.
I said thats all I wanted to know
Bebop

loud, rattle the mirrirs in the bathroom, and leave you partially deaf each night and probably leave a few patrons with headaches on the ride home. The extra boominess that makes the bad dancers dance will not be able to tell if the highs and mids are proportionate because the volume will be so loud and in their face. You're right......modern technology just can't compete with the good old days.

I just did a sweet 16 party tonight with my L1 II system and only ONE Bose sub ..... the dance floor was never empty, I could hear every request that came to me ...even with my head only 12 inches from the tower.....which BTW, never fed back once even though my live mic was right there too.

The Bose is not for everyone. It's not for those resistant to change, or those who need to actually feel the bass rumble in their stomaches. It's a new and improved approach, and fill the bill 100% for it's target market. You'll never see some MTV rockers with Peavey gear, and you'll never convince an old school musician with hearing loss that this new, smoother system can do the job. Then again, just make him a cassette tape of the sound and have him play it back, while you stroll down memory lane........shouting at each other.

" So, Jeff.....I got a new hearing aid yesterday!"

"Oh yeah...what kind is it??"

"Hmmmm....almost 11:30 ! "


I love you guys....but not as much as I love my Bose. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


Ditto on the Bose Lt1 Mod II with the Tone Match. It's like having an Ultra HiFi extremely wide dispersion PA system. It sounds exactly the same 180 degrees. We use one Sub and it's plenty for 300 seat places. We have another for larger venues but rarely use it.

People are always asking about the system.

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 03-31-2008).]

Although I'm not the hugest fan of Mackie's top cabs, I got to give a pretty ringing endorsement of their subs. I have the 15" self powered type, and it has been bulletproof. As a balance to our JBL SRX 12" top cabs, it works like a dream, from quiet intimate places to very large outdoor venues at full bore.

For me, the trick is not to have the smallest, lightest sub (and PA) for a particular venue, it's having ONE that can work for ANY venue, ANY volume level. I don't feel like buying two or three PA's to cover diverse gigs. Just get ONE that can cover it all...

If all you ever do is background gigs, sure, use whatever. No-one cares. But play outdoors for a thousand or so (that wanna PARTY, not talk over the top of you!), and that Logitech is gonna blow so fast you won't have time to think!

I've done football field-size outdoor picnics with ONE Bose sub and these people partied like crazy. The sound was crystal clear 400 feet from where I set up, and I watched the people all over bopping and dancing to the beat. It carries like nothing else.

I'm excited - going to see Victor Wooten after work tonight. I'm gonna tell him about the Bose.

Diki,

I played at Aberdeen, Maryland Municipal Park to about 1,200 people using a single sub with the Bose L1 system. People 600 feet away were bopping to the songs and raved about the music. I never turned the volume beyond 50 percent of max. And, the people within 50 feet said they loved the music. I don't know if it was the sub or the tower that reached the back end of the venue, but I can unequivocally tell you that NO conventional sound system I've owned in 50 years could have accomplished this without blowing the heads off audience members that were within 50 feet of the speakers--NONE! I sincerely hope that no one else buys the Bose sound system--I not that good of a player and I don't want them to sound as good or better than myself. I hope they ALL stick with their antique, monster subs and speakers, ones that require a fork-lift to get out of the vans and trailers. I also hope they ALL have their health insurance paid up so they don't have to shell out big bucks for their hernia repairs. Oh hell, doctors need money too!

Cheers,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

Thanks, Gary... I will take your advice.

I always perform in stereo, anyway...

Diki....stereo Bose PAS units (2)......
oh yeah I wanna carry 8 pieces of speaker gear plus tight covers

All you need is love !

I used to worship at the Shrine of Stereo. I would never even THINK of going Mono - live.

Thing is, the Stereo image concept only works if you're sitting in the sweet spot FOH. Move to the left or right, or significantly back from that spot, and you not only lose the Stereo field and any instruments painstakingly panned left or right, you get a biased listening field (too much lead guitar, too much backing vocals, or Strings, or Tambourine (!) or what have you.

Since we got the Bose, the clarity of not only the system itself (which deserves some discussion on it own) but the clarity of MONO (everyone hears the same thing no matter where they are) makes it all worthwhile.


Not only will I never play with a different system again, but I will never go back to stereo!

I couldn't dump the L1 quick enough to go back to stereo, even if the field is narrown.

Each their own....

Zuki, I never owned an L1, but I am pretty sure I would have done the same as you..I love stereo and it works far better than most are stating..The worse scenario...when you stand back too far...you have mono..at least to the ear..Those that are close or near the "sweet spot", enjoy the stereo..as the performer does...

Mono is a sacrifice...why not use stereo and most will have the stereo experience...

Fran, you know that's simply not true.
Most will not enjoy the stereo experience.

If you're playing EXTREMELY small venues, then there would be a better chance that more than a select few could get some sense of panning/stereo imaging.

We often play larger clubs that have seating (and in some cases) dance floors that are unusually placed i.e. off to the side, widely spaced, non symmetrical etc, and the chances of any kind of pleasing stereo effect being conveyed to anyone not in the "zone" are nil.

(Ironically, the topic of this thread is Best/good subwoofer, and whilst I don't think it's veered too far OT - this is a worthy discussion - subwoofer bass frequencies are, of course, largely non-directional! lol)

I do not totally disagree with you..Our band also play venues where only mono will work..very large[wide rooms] and out door boardwalk jobs are a couple venues that need mono..but a tight stereo set up in most rooms will work as I mentioned..

Here's what I'm trying at the next gig:
http://www.mackie.com/products/srm450v2

zuki

Zuki, did you already buy the Mackies?

Check out the Yorkville NX750p's..nearly twice the power and better bass response [15"]..about $100 more for each unit..

Fran,

Yes, already have them. I did an L1 GC return anyway. The power is plenty for me and I want to see about the proposed wide field the new Mackies's offer. In addition, the weight is 20 lbs lighter (each).

zuki

Fran I'm pleased you agree with me (to a degree) and I am agreeing with you also, in many venues (you say most - perhaps most meaning: most venues that *you* play) Stereo will work.

I'm guessing we play both play very different types of Venues in General.

I wonder how different the Clubs/Pubs/Lounge/Outdoor etc etc scene is in the U.S. compared to Australia?

Zuki you returned the best sound system ever made judging by all the glowing reviews? ...May I ask why you didn't like the BOSE system, I'm sure everyone wants to know? I also sold mine after a few months ....Although many love them....it just didnt feel or sound right for ME.
I hope you A/B'd the two 450's Grey & Blue just to be sure ....I know the Grey are proven winners......good luck with them hope they work out for you.
Meanwhile I'm really enjoying my Roland CK100's thats all I'm gonna say at this point

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 04-03-2008).]

What if you don't want to fill the room with sound?

In some venues, patrons who do not want to listen to the music, or prefer it at a lower volume, can sit further away from the speakers.

This is not possible with the Bose system.

It's not for everyone...and certainly not for those who like to play in stereo.

Ian

Hellboy44, My guess is we are not very different in venues..

Mostly I play in a trio, at several different ocean side venues..Some are out doors(on boardwalks or street parties).The audience is hard to measure (anywhere between 1,000 to maybe 5-6,000 people)..
These are strictly mono sound systems..On the boardwalk the speakers are spaced every 40 feet or so...usually around 6-8 speakers..

Our street parties[closed off streets next to the ocean..we are on a raised stage and use our typical Yorkville set up..running in mono. This system covers several blocks with sound..I have people say they heard us 5 or 6 blocks away as if they were sitting in front of the stage...The Yorkvilles cover a large area[2- NX520p's and a Sub woofer]..

Our shore crowds are mixed...we have teens- seniors..Our music is usually dance music from the 60's and 70's..)

Our club dates average around 200-250 people..many I stay in stereo, some we go mono..Especially the outdoor clubs(mono).We have some larger club dates with over 300 people and these are also mostly mono..
Our range of music is material from Big Band era, 50's doo wop, the 60's and 70's and some top 40..

My solo work is a little different, audience is usually around 150 people..I do mostly 40's , 50's and 60's material ( Presley, Vinton, Anka, Humperdink, Jones etc)..The vast majority of my solo jobs are stereo[currently using my trusted Roland CK 100's)..

BTW: it only takes a push of a button on my Mackie mixer to switch from stereo to mono..so if one works better than the other..easily adjusted...

Donny,

The Bose just didn't fill the room with the stereo sound I'm used to. Too many highs (for my taste) and I don't want to configure stuff the rest of my life. Directly behind gave me a headache, to the left or right sounded like I was missing something.

The new Mackie Blues - 450v2 - I'm all blue now : ) sound great! with PLENTY of bass, highs and fabulous separation. That's what I comfortable with. I love to hear the instruments in stereo At 40 lbs, they're a breeze to handle.

I still play with the 900, not ready yet for the 800, but it's close and is sounding VERY cool. The lame 900 power adapter wires frayed again, so I have to spend yet another $100 - what a stupid design Yamaha.

Just coming off 7 jobs in two days and a break for one day....20 hours today on the 800 to get it ready.

Thanks for asking.

zuki

[This message has been edited by zuki (edited 04-03-2008).]

The whole point of stereo is NOT that everybody in the house gets to sit in one 'sweet spot'. That's absurd. But equally absurd is the contention that ONLY those sitting in the 'sweet spot' get ANY stereo experience. I am SURE that you don't run your home stereo in mono unless you are sitting perfectly at the apex of an equilateral triangle with the speakers at the other two corners. It doesn't collapse to mono the minute you move your head or body!

The strength of stereo is it helps localize certain sounds, and give a sense of dimensionality to the music, and helps avoid different parts from clashing with each other. It helps recreate the actual stereo sound of a live band (you don't need a stereo PA to know and hear the bassist is on the left and the guitarist is on the right in anything other than very large concert venues). And recreating the 'live band' experience is EXACTLY what arrangers are all about. That includes positional cues, as well as musical ones.

Sure, there are the occasional venues, as described, where stereo does NOT work. That is what the 'mono out' jack is for, on your arranger (well, some of them )! But in the large percentage where stereo DOES help you get a sense of dimensionality into what is essentially a 'fake' performance (there is only you, not the whole band the customer is hearing), it is a plus, at least as important as a reasonably 'flat' sound...

I think most of the objections to running stereo seem to come from those with theoretical reasons for it. But actually USE a stereo PA, and you will quickly come to see that, for all but the very largest gigs, it IS apparent throughout the venue. Not as good as the 'sweet spot', but still there...

Diki, I never said that a stereo image (be it Venue or Home) would "collapse to Stereo the minute you move your head or body", please don't treat me like an idiot, and stop putting words in my mouth (i.e. using a straw man argument to prove your point).

For your information I HAVE used a stereo set up for YEARS (I thought I made that abundantly clear) and thought I would miss that sound, I thought the audience would miss that sound - I was wrong on both counts.

If you want to think I'm a fool (you're half right) or an inexperienced musician (dead wrong) go right ahead.

Well, the audience rarely misses anything, as it seldom even notices anything (at least, consciously)! But perhaps it is I that is the idiot here...

Because I DO use stereo, and miss it when I don't have it, and my audiences, especially when I've played a mono venue and they hear me doing stereo, often come up and go 'you sound so much better here...'

I just smile and thank them.

What do they know, anyway?

BTW, hellboy... you see anything in my post where I was addressing YOU?

No need to get worked up about general comments, is there?

You were addressing my point (Stereo "being for the few not the many") and thus addressing me and others who hold that view. On top of that, you quoted my "sweet spot" phrasing exactly.

Pretty good reasons to assume you were addressing me.

Say what you mean and mean what you say Diki, instead of all this "passive aggressive/I'm just talkin' in general" crap that passes for a reply on the forum these days.

OK, then hellboy. Just because YOU (and a few others) don't appreciate stereo any more (and the Bose's inability to deliver it makes that kind of moot, anyway) does NOT mean those of us that DO are wrong. In truth only in weird shaped venues does any significant portion of the audience NOT hear a stereo image, albeit somewhat compromised.



In MY book, that's pretty much EXACTLY what I criticized (but you are right, I did 'drama' it up a bit!). So don't give ME the passive/aggressive line, mate... Stand by your own bloody quote.

I was TRYING to make general comments (the term 'sweet spot' isn't a bloody OZ term, it's everyday parlance) but if you want to make it personal, fine by me. Just remember to check your OWN quotes first, or run the risk of being accused of passive/aggressiveness yourself, too...

So you WERE addressing me and my point, and STILL denied it.

Also, why would you think I don't appreciate Stereo?

Fran and I came to some agreement(!) if you care to re-read those posts regarding Stereo and Mono, or have you forgotten?

What quotes haven't I stood by?

Why WOULDN'T I think you weren't criticizing me and my view (which it turns out you were - by your own admission) just because my turn of phrase (specifically "sweet spot") isn't under my own personal (or my Country's) Copyright?

Whether you know it or not (and I suspect you do) you have come across as condescending and elitist.
I've been accused of that many times myself, but boy, you make ME look like an amateur.

sic em Rex!!

Still don't get why you are upset about a refutation of this simplistic point. You are not the only one to have made it, in the past, hence my 'general comments' approach. I just tried to defuse what was an ill-considered reply to it, sorry. I will just try to stay aggressive, and the hell with the passive part if you prefer...

That specific quote is a pile of wombat doo, and you know it. Which your later retraction only goes to prove. Stereo is a FAR more complicated issue, and simplistic posts like that only prove that picking poor arguments to bolster your personal preference (there are WAY too many here that a) don't like the Bose sound, and b) DO prefer to perform in stereo to give you a consensus) only garners scorn.

Express a personal opinion, no problem mate... Try to bolster it with obviously simplistic statements like that, easily shown just plain WRONG, and you deserve whatever you get... (which would have stopped at the first post if you had just gone back and recognized that you DID say words to that effect, rather than try to deny it or explain it away and attack me in the process).

Elitist? I don't give a rats.

Talk about bass Victor is all about bass. He's an awesome player. Let me know how it was Dave, I am very envious of you.

OMG - that show was AMAZING !
Gerald Veasley was in the house and he sat in ... also Bernie Worrell came up for a few numbers ! What a funkfest!

I won a free CD and book and I'm going back to the theater next Friday to see my HEROS - Tower Of Power. I'm like a kid in a candy store.
There are some excellent lessons on youtube that Vic put up for free - anyone that has ever touched a satringed instrument NEEDS to watch this guy play.

He's also very spiritual. He connects music with the soul, and lives his life as if music (who he says is female )"accepts" him...he doesn't create it. Interesting point of view, huh?

What an awesome night. He's coming back to the Keswick in August with STANLEY CLARKE and MARCUSS MILLER ! Geeezzzzzzz......

Dave and Nigel, I REALLy like Victor. Visited with him several times in the Ampeg booth at NAMM, along with Bootsey Collins.

Victor has been through Lexington many times; with Bella Fleck and with other configurations. When he comes through, he sits on the end of the stage and talks bass with anyone who wants to for as long as it takes after the show.

My fondest memory of my long-time friend Ray Brown was at a Louisville three bass concert about two years before Ray died. It was Ray, Victor and Edgar Meyer, a Grammy winning academic from a school in Tennessee. Ray invited me up. Victor was respectful and all three, who had met only hours before, put on a hell of a show. Music collaboration doesn't get any better than that.

Victor is a great person and a fabulous player.


Russ

(Sorry, been away gigging)

Yes Diki, you've made it very obvious you don't give a rat's about opinions (other than yours) on this matter, every elitist worth his salt does that.

Why don't you quote my entire post elaborating on what I meant?

(Which was)

"Thing is, the Stereo image concept only works if you're sitting in the sweet spot FOH. Move to the left or right, or significantly back from that spot, and you not only lose the Stereo field and any instruments painstakingly panned left or right, you get a biased listening field (too much lead guitar, too much backing vocals, or Strings, or Tambourine (!) or what have you."

Which is far from simplistic and indeed an accurate summation of what happens.
(you can add "IMHO" after that in your own mind if that makes you feel better).

The only simplistic thing around here is your use of the quote editing system.

Before we derail this thread any further (what was the original question again?) I'm going to start a new thread, because there's something else happening here other than Diki's classy tactics.

When I start that thread, you will see, and all are welcome to participate...

P.S. Deserve what I get? What did I get? Not much from what I can tell.

Not much, I agree. But enough to get worked up about it, anyway...

The rest of the quote is still erroneous.

"Thing is, the Stereo image concept only works if you're sitting in the sweet spot FOH. Move to the left or right, or significantly back from that spot, and you not only lose the Stereo field and any instruments painstakingly panned left or right, you get a biased listening field (too much lead guitar, too much backing vocals, or Strings, or Tambourine (!) or what have you." (just for appeasing your sense of quote etiquette)

How FAR to the left or right..? How FAR back (at least there you state 'significantly', whatever that means)? If you meant 'stand next to one of the stacks' that's what you should have said. Moving to the left or right does NOT lose the stereo. Period. Until you are SO close to one stack or another that they drown the other out. VERY extreme, and not stated (but perhaps meant)...

The so called 'sweet spot' is at the apex of an equilateral triangle, with the speakers at two corners. Let's say your speakers are 30ft apart. That makes the sweet spot about 25ft out from the stacks. Stand 25 ft in front of one stack, if they are 30ft apart, you can still hear the other stack (try it if you don't believe me).

What you fail to take into account is that, in a real band, the guitarist has a stage rig, the bassist has a stage rig, the keyboard player has a rig, the drummer's gear is up to 6ft wide. Stand close to the stage, and you get an unbalanced sound, too. Doesn't stop anyone from doing it, though, does it? In fact, it adds to the realism ('cos it's REAL ). Why should a stereo rig, trying to emulate a real band be any different?

You weren't panning anything hard left and right, were you? Because that's not realistic in the first place. The guitarist doesn't stand on one edge of the stage and the bass player on the other and the drum kit isn't 20 ft wide... Pan things at 10 to 2, and those close to each stack don't have anywhere NEAR the problem hearing the 'other side'.

If you are trying to sound like a real band, a point source ONLY gives a sense of realism to audience members that are SO far back that they would have got NO positional cues from a real band. And that, my Aussie friend, is a LONG way away..

As for 'elitism', well, in truthfulness, I don't see any more respect from you towards those with opposite views than you are getting. It IS a two way street... And if I try to bolster my arguments with facts that are demonstrably wrong (or incomplete), I don't expect, nor seldom get, much slack. If 'elitism' is simply disagreeing with inaccurate facts, sign me up!

I do pan instruments, many instruments, sometimes extremely (as in the case of "ping pong" delay kinds of effects) and sometimes not at all (obviously bass and Drums - although ironically, many keyboard drumkits - Toms/Percussion specifically - are panned in and of themselves).

So realistic or not, like it or not, some instruments are panned in ALL my sequences (in my Case) and I gave MUCH more attention to all the little Stereo field details than they deserve.

Why do I say that?

Because like I said (if you go back and re-read all my posts in this thread - and hey quote them if you like) you will see Stereo (for me, if you like) becomes MUCH less important in irregular venues and venues with side seating. It only has it's full effect on the dancefloor - and THAT'S assuming the dancefloor is directly in front of the speakers, which, as I have said before, is sometimes not the case.

Side seating IS in fact, usually too close to one stack or the other, I thought that was a given.

In the future I will be more careful with my erroneous posts, which are not erroneous at all, but rather not detailed/spelled out enough for yourself and others Diki.

Look, no problem... your decision.

Re-read my posts, and you'll see the little bit about using the Mono out jack when things are irregular. Solves THAT problem lickety-split..!

But use a mono PA, and you deny yourself the opportunity to use stereo when the venue IS right for it. It's easy to make a stereo PA mono. But impossible to make a mono one stereo...