(This is the new thread I was referring to earlier.)

I've noticed something happening recently and I want to get to the bottom of it.

More than one thread lately has, let's face it, either gone completely OT, been derailed (by myself as well as others) or been sent downhill in the worst way, all because of four words:

Bose Personal Amplification System.


Now I've got to make a few things clear before we start.

1. I think people CAN have their own opinions on ANY piece of gear, philosophy, working methods, Religion, favourite colour...WHATEVER.

2. I don't think, and have never said, that the Bose system is for everyone, and people can love the sound, hate the sound, judge the sound as is their right.

3. I'm not espousing the system in this thread - even though you all know what side of the fence I'm on - I want an honest civil discussion.

4. Failing that, I'm happy for this thread to degenerate sooner or later into a Love/Hate Attack/Defend diatribe (from BOTH sides) because maybe this thread can be like a "virtual swear Jar" where people can post things as nasty as they like if it keeps other threads from being "Bose polluted".

Now what I want to say, more than ANYTHING else is this:

This system has caused more "hate talk" and Emotionalism than any other PA system I can recall.
Some *ahem* "discussions" about it even rival the fierce "My arranger is better than yours" debates (and we all know how THOSE go).

Why can OTHER pieces of gear (well PA's and the like) be rationally discussed, other companies and their methods (Advertising/Marketing/Research & Development) be discussed in a balanced way (mostly) and not the Bose PAS or Bose itself?

I've even had emails from more than one Synthzone member (and they will remain anonymous) advising me on the system in PRIVATE so as not to cause trouble!!

I mean, when was the last time someone on a forum felt they had to hold "secret talks" about some PA gear for fear of ridicule or attack????

This is ridiculous.

Some will think I'm making a mountain out of a molehill, others will be nodding their head in agreeance with me, (and other's probably won't care at all!) but this really deserves a thread on it's own for a while so we can at LEAST clear the air.

Love the Bose? Fine.
Hate the Bose? Fine - really, I mean that.

But for God's sake, can we try to discuss it NORMALLY like most other pieces of gear - well PA gear....

How about it?

Well you have some people paying under $200.00 for a so called pro computer speaker PA that sounds great...& then you have others paying $3000.00 for a bose PAS setup....& you wanna know why there is a conflict?

So what is your question?

I didn't like the Bose for the following reasons:

1. I like to hear more detail/separation of my keyboard arranger.
2. I didn't have time to devote to making it sound good.
3. It was very expensive and allowed for quite the shopping opportunity upon return.
4. I am USED TO 2 speaker cabinets - one in each ear if you will.
5. There are too many pieces to tear down and set up (minor issue I could've lived with).
6. Lastly, some love the sound, others not, plain and simple (I am the latter).

Now that was civil?

Yes it was Zuki, thank you and I appreciate the reply.

As for price, I think, yes, that's an initial sticking point for many.


Keep 'em coming boys.

I think the negative reaction comes from some of the zealotry of those that DO use a Bose PAS. 'I like it' and 'I don't' don't really get people's goat up. But the patent cheerleading for this system from many that DO, 'This is the best PA in the world!', 'Nothing even comes close' 'I played a 40,000 arena with ONE sub, and they all partied their brains out!' (OK, that one's an exaggeration!), when waved in front of those of us that HAVE tried it, and found it lacking, especially in low mids and 'punch' (great highs, though) is a little hard to swallow.

Look, I don't even like Bose stereos. They all (IMO) have a 'sound'. And the LAST thing I want to hear is a 'sound' of the stereo itself. I just want the music, as uncolored as possible. I listen to probably 90% of all music through my Mackie HR824's. The rest of the time, it's B&W monitors ($3.5k of them). I think I know what 'flat' sounds like. I work part time as a mastering engineer, for everyone from local acts up to national bands. I would NEVER master anything on a Bose system. They are just too 'hyped'.

Their PA's, same thing. Now, this is just my opinion. I don't try to force feed MY preferences in PA gear down anyone's throat. Would that SOME PAS users would do the same...

To get my opinion, just hit Search. I've voiced it for three years, and don't intend to comment on it again.
Anyone coming to the Shreveport Jam April 12 can hear, and play through it themselves. There will be traditional systems to A-B also.
DonM

Thanks guys, much appreciated.

A solution to the stereo issue, is to use TWO Bose systems in stereo.

Expensive? Maybe...but you wouldn't need monitors, and that's got to count for something...good monitors or "in-ear" systems aren't cheap.

The L1 system would also look much cleaner on stage.

Ian

With regard to the "MANY" pieces of setup:
A traditional PA would include
2 speaker stands (wide footprint)
2 wires (usually ugly, mostly dangerous)
2 30+ lb speakers ( you need to LIFT UP )
* maybe even an extra sub

so, that's 7 pieces, IF you're using powered speakers....add ONE more if you need a PA head...TWO more for a separate mixer and power amp.

Then, you still don't have:
modeled inputs
active EQ
intelligent compression
tiny, tiny footprint, LARGE coverage

I won't engage in hate talk ... I'm just trying to make the advantages clear. Some people won't like it, and that's fine, but many people have converted after trying it .... so, I'm trying to show the advantages to everyone. In the end, you make your own choice, of course.

Take the price, and divide all the components up, and it not as expensive as you might guess, considering all the advantages! And the rugged covers that are included with the system fit beautifully, store easily and protect the finish from scratches and light bumps.

My biggest love is the quick, consise setup. I'm in and ready to go in about 10 minutes. No need to even sound check, because I know what it will sound like.

One resident asked me if I brought in a stove pipe

Hi Guys, I used an L1 system for about three months indoors and out. I just did not like the sound. After much tweaking and proding I sold it and purchased a backup T2.

Forget about setup, looks, and cost, the sound is whats is important to me. I just didn't like it. My 2 cents.

Jim

True, it's the sound, stupid. BUT, I've always been ok with a standard stereo setup, so in order for me to buy a system that costs three to five times more than it's (power/coverage) stereo counterpart, I've got to love it three to five times more. Since I've never heard one, I can't rule that out, but given that, like Diki, I never cared much for the (400 series) Bose sound anyway, I kinda' doubt it.

Note: the above is merely a comment, not an opinion (which I don't feel qualified to have). The only thing I know about them for sure is the cost. Besides, if they're that good and you're that lousy, they're just going to expose you that much more. There are a few people here that should be reminded of that, but I'll save that for my final death-bed post.

chas

I can only echo DonM's statement--do a search!

One thing I would like to add, though. Most of the negative comments I've read during the past couple years were from individuals that either didn't own an L1 system, or were from those that purchased it and never took the time to read the manual for setting it up properly. Same holds true for the vast majority of the keyboards.

Cheers,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

Jimmy EXCELLENT Post that really says it all....you hit it right on the mark!!


For me the Bose is Just an OK system that sounds decent if you set it up with the right EQ for your gear right....trying to make everyone believe it or spend unbelievable amounts of money for it is another thing & a very personal decision...
this whole thread on sound gear should start out with ...
"TAKE YOUR OWN GEAR TO THE STORE, PLAY YOUR OWN GEAR IN THE STORE THROUGH THE BOSE, JBL, FBT, YORKVILLE, MACKIE, EV, LOGITECH OR WHATEVER THEY HAVE YOUR INTERESTED IN AND A/B THEM ALL THEN MAKE A DECISION FOR YOU ONLY"....DO NOT LISTEN TO ANYONES ELSES OPINIONS ....

This is your gear, your sound, your playing, your audience......when you feel its right buy it.....if it works out fine enjoy!.....if down the road it doesn't tickle your fancy anymore ...dump it and move on & buy something else.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 04-05-2008).]

I haven't the slightest intention of buying the Bose because it's way outside my financial reach
but I must just say one thing.. I have heard the system with the double set-up being used by a UK concert artiste together with a Stagea organ on two occasions in different venues
and I have never heard better sound at any concert.

Trevor

When at my band gig, 90% of the 20 musicians have commented on how good the sound is from my Bose, the other 10% are deaf anyway.

Bernie

I only need a pair of Roland CK 100's [on wheels]..

My G70 [on wheels]..
2 patch cords and a mic/cord...
That's it!!!!No need for a sub woofer[the Roland's get down there].

The G70 handles the mixing/effects/audio inputs[if I use the laptop]...
And I deal with NO sacrifices..


Of course I don't have a place to hang my hat or coat...like you Bose guys..

Fran....

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Fran,

You forgot to add the forklift, the trailer to haul the forklift, pallats to put the speakers and keyboard upon, 6-foot diameter cable reel for the cables, monitors, plus three, hot-lookin' roadies wearing tank-tops and hot-pants to load the gear. And, of course, you can haul all this stuff with your 300-year-old pickup truck that has a million miles on it. OH YEAH!

Gary



------------------
Travlin' Easy

Gary..I did forget all that...

Those Rolands are bass heavy, which is great for you because you have lost about 20% of yout high frequency hearing anyway !
(I can tease him - we're friends for life!)

They also will never provide the even coverage that I get from the L1, and they have to be so loud in front to carry to the back....aw, why am I wasting my fingers?
We all love what we love!

BUT ...... those Roland cubes are extinct for a reason.

( are there enough smilies??? )

Actually, maybe it's the loss of HIGH frequencies that account for every PAS owner's preference? (obligatory smilie...)

They sure sound hyped upstairs to me...

I'm impressed this thread hasn't gone (too) downhill so far. I'd like to hear from more people, but I guess this is an open thread that can be added to at any time.

Like I mentioned, I'm merely facilitating a discussion here. I have MANY things to say about the system, but I'd like to Moderate this thread (if I can be so bold) instead of adding to it with my views - many of you have read my thoughts in other threads anyway...

So toot on my friends!



Anyone else?

My wife uses the Bose on her gigs. Yeah it was expensive. So is the PA2X Im leaning towards.

She can play any venue and set up on 10 minutes . There are no weight issues, no space issues, she can carry everything in her Spyder if she leaves the keys home and fill a room of 300 with EQUAL sound at nearly 180 degrees. People can hear the music AND have a conversation. There are no hot spots.

She earns enough to pay for it and can now do gigs others cannot because of space issues,

Most have an issue with the price. But when you look at it the system HOLDS its Value better than any standard PA. You really only have $500-$700 invested. The rest will come back when you sell it. (see Ebay)

If you play LOUD the system is not for you.
If you do a single or even trio. There is no better way to go if you can pay the tag.

We have a Mackie 808s with a couple JBL MR925s on poles sitting in the garage with a powered Sub and monitor for sale. We will never use that system again (unless we get into DJing which will nevr happen)LOL.

Could you elaborate (on what's wrong with that setup). I was looking for a speaker recommendation for a 808s to play organ (nothing else) through. Your statement above has given me pause. Thanks.

chas

1. HEAVY
2. Need a truck to move it around
3. Limited sweet spot listening area,
4, Need monitors.
5. Need stands

Its too much for the wife to carry round by herself and set up and strike. The Bose sounds better in a wider area, doesn't requie the space and can be mamged a lot better using the Tone Match Mixer.

You HAVE to really set the system up right with proper gain levels and EQ to get the sound right. But you can save the entire setup. She has different set up "scenes" saved for every place she plays and for duos and trios when they join her. I have my own set up saved on it as well.

There simple isnt anything out there that is so smal, light, powerful and has the DSP and flexibilty for the money. Like I said she can pack the whole system and her keys and guitar in her Spyder and do a 300 seat room.

Thanks for your response. Those are points that I will certainly consider as I continue my search. I was afraid there might be something inherently wrong with the 808s (aside from being somewhat underpowered for most good quality cabinets (270-300 watts/8 ohms).

chas

Why are the PAS's so tricky to setup and gain stage?

I would have thought flat was flat, and don't redlight anything, you should be set. What makes this so complicated?

Diki I think people approach the PAS like a standard PA. Because of the design and the array of small drivers you really have to set up the gain stages correctly. The system is so accurate the slightest overdone frequency or gain is magnified. The best thing about the system as far as I am concerned is the CLARITY compared to the Mackie system we have. You can hear everything no matter where you sit in the room.

The Bose Forum is a good source for pros and cons. Like I said though our principle reason for making the jump (without even hearing a system) was the Forums and the ease of set up and the system is very light. ITs only 300 watts so if it were to power a band I would suggest and it seems each player has their own system,

The hardest thing to get used to was the lack of stereo. but really in a club you dont want just the center of the listing area to hear a good mix. You want everyone to hear the SAME mix. The BOse does that very very well.

Gain staging is not all that complicated. It simply coordinates volume mixes between your keyboard, mixer (if you use one) your mic and the Bose volume controls, which on Model 1 is a very basic remote with eq, channel volume and master volume controls.

For instance, without gain staging you could be red-lining on your keyboard but not on the Bose creating distortion prior to attaining the total output volume you want.

I can't speak for Model II which comes with the really cool T1 mixer, but on model 1 of the L1, there are 99 presets to choose from. Not all presets contain data yet, but there are plenty and a guide that comes with the unit recommending certain presets for specific instruments and brands/models of mics.

Shortly after I got my Model 1, Bose came out with another version of the presets, which I downloaded from their website and installed into the power stand. I have found four presets that I really like for my keyboard and vocals...and choose between... depending on the stage and room conditions I am playing on and in.

Okay...I know this sounds foreign to those who have been using conventional systems since their Garage Band Days. And, I am not saying it is everyone's cup of tea. But, for me and many I know who are using either of the models, Bose has created a system that, IMO, is superior to any conventional system I have used --- sound-wise, weight-wise, looks-wise...and has a smaller footprint for playing tight areas, decreasing liabilities from folks tripping on tripod stands. Easy to set up. Easy to transport. 180 degree sound dispersion. Feedback resistant. And, no need for floor monitors.

I'm not even sure why I am writing this. It would be okay with me if none of my competition ever got the Bose. But some have and all but one love it. The one guy who doesn't is a KJ guy who went overboard, bought two units and four subs...didn't take the time to learn the ins & outs, read the manual or ask questions of their amazingly helpful techs on their website... and thinks it has to be as LOUD and in stereo just as his conventional system is up on stage.

Since it is so different, I highly recommend you try before you buy...or take advantage of the 45-day return policy offered by Bose...and maybe GC...not sure about GC.

Follow the Gain Staging instructions. Experiment with the presets. And as silly as this sounds, when hooking up the sub, be sure to twist the "speak-on" connection at the power stand and the sub until it clicks. Even some of the sales guys at GC have been known not to do that and lose a sale because there was "no bottom end".

Yeah...I am hyped about Bose. But, I shall refrain from any more preaching. It is not the only good system out there...and certainly not perfect for everyone.
Eddie

A quick correction: The power stand contains three 250 watt amps, one of which is dedicated to the sub. So while it has a total of 750 watts, I think I read it is rated at 1400...but I am not a watt expert and don't really care as long as it covers the small and large rooms I play.

Eddie

Well, no offense, but gain staging is something you have to do for ANY PA... Why does it make so much reported difference to the SOUND if you aren't red-lighting it? There seems to be a lot of anecdotal post about people that didn't like it, and the response is always 'well, he didn't gain stage it right'.

Which, apart from the distortion (which out to be apparent) ought not to affect the TONE of the PA, the perceived EQ balance. Why is this gain sensitive? My conventional PA sounds exactly the same at any gain setting short of outright clipping.

Flat is flat, no red light means no distortion... Why is it any more complicated than that?

Diki, I think what's being referred to is two things.

1. Gain staging to optimize the total output/volume of the system.

I remember my first few times with the Bose. I would run out of steam i.e. not be able to go very loud and very little headroom (I thought great, this damn system IS just an underpowered computer speaker system!!)

Then I Trimmed each channel correctly and could run things just as loud as I needed.

2. T1 Settings.

The mixing desk can be a tricky little beast at first - LOTS of options (which really means just more control over things, fortunately) and lots of presets. e.g. every channel has an optimized EQ setting for commonly used industry standard mikes and equipment.

For example:
I could set up Channel 1 for an SM-58, Channel 2 for MP3 playback (and several settings within THAT just for different types of music playback - soft/loud etc) Channel 3 Could be for Guitar FX/Amp Modeling (it even has specifics for things like a Line 6 Pod) Channel 4 could be for Keyboards.

So that's the output and tone optimization you can and should go through.

Hope that helps explain things.

The Bose L1 is 750-watts RMS, 1,500-watts peak-power, of which 500-watts is dedicated to the tower, while 250-watts is dedicated to the subwoofer.

Coming from the old school of conventional sound systems, it took me a couple days to get used to not blowing my ear-drums out while performing. When the L1 sounds loud to you it's probably too loud for your audiences. Different concept, but you must keep in mind that it's not a conventional sound system.

As for the volume staging, I've always been a bit of a stickler for reading the instructions, step-by-step, and doing this with the equipment at my side. By doing this I was able to optimize the sound system and learned quite a bit.

Diki is spot on with his asessment of setting up a conventional sound system. However, with the L1 it is a totally different ball game. I know of a couple performers that did not set up their systems per the intstruction manual and they were disappointed with the results. In one instance I spent quite a few minutes, adjusted the system per the manual's instructions and he was amazed at how wonderful the system sounded. In another instance the performer kept trying to do things the way he did for the past several years and did not adhere to the system requirements. He sold the system and purchased something else.

As Eddie, DonM and I have said on many occasions--"This is not for everyone!" I've owned and tried so many sound systems it boggles my mind. For MY purposes, and MY audiences, the Bose L1 is the best thus far. Expensive? Not really. Especially when you consider how much money I've spent over the past several decades in sound systems that I was never really that happy with, and the list of those is quite extensive.

I guess my best meaure of sound quality is the responses from both my audiences, and my spouse--a woman who after nearly a half century of nuptual bliss has absolutely no qualms about expressing her opinions to me. If she doesn't like what she hears she tells me in no uncertain terms. She LOVES the Bose L1. So does my audiences.

Cheers,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

That's the key. Many using conventional PA's are stuck on "is it loud enugh?" and "IS it Stereo?" Those are the two major hurdles is the PA paradigm one has to jump.

Stereo is not good in a room where there are people sitting outside the sweet spot. The others will hear the left or right side of the music directly and other side coming of the far wall a few milliseconds later...Can you say MUD? Discrete panning makes this even worse. Also the dispersion area is a lot narrower and focused in equal amounts up, and down causing people to hear the whole mix in reflections off the floor and ceilings (which the Bose does not do)Again, not clear.

For those reasons people usually say the Bose sounds "clear" and they can hear themselves talk AND the Music becasue theres are no harsh hot spots. People on the sides are not asking to turn it up while people in the front are asking to turn it down. Of course the performer has no idea what they hear becasue he is using a monitor that is sending reflections off the ceiling and back wall.....All the sound waves bouncing around the room becasue the system has to be LOUD enough ti fill the room cause MUD and are eliminated with the BOse becasue the sound is evenly dispersed in a 180 degree area. Ironically, You can actually play louder with the Bose becasue you don't have all these reflections to deal with. Clarity and Volume. The Holy Grail of a good PA Set up and mixer. Clarity in the ROOM. not just coming from the system.

I can walk around the room and not really hear the "source" of the sound. The precise directionality of conventional PA systems is eliminated as well as monitors.

If a club owner passes us over because of the Bose, I would rather not play in his establishment because he just wants "loud" He equates big speakers as loud......
We don't do "loud" anymore. I have seen jaws drop looking around for the "PA" when my wife kicks in

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 04-08-2008).]

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 04-08-2008).]

So, Mr. Creely COULD have said something like:

I feel the Bose PAS and it's performance cannot be compared to the JBLs (or other sound reinforcement brands) for the following reasons....

Or

Bose as a Company doesn't measure up to the standards I expect in my line of work because...

Or

Bose is considered by myself and many of my colleagues as unsatisfactory compared to many other manufacturers as far as.....


but all he said was:

"The JBL VRX should not even be mentioned in the same breath as Bose. The JBL is a serious speaker, and bose is a joke in live PA"

Do I have a problem with him (or anyone) criticizing the Bose?

No - as I've said clearly before - no (and neither should anyone else) but I do have a problem with an offhand derogatory and non specific remark that has naturally offended people on this forum (me for one) and I don't think it's asking too much for him to discuss it rationally - or....is it?

Hellboy44: Perhaps on other forums, but on
Synthzone? . . . not a chance !

Many of us have had to endure similar derogatory offhand abuse about Yamaha arrangers, and which offended many people here as well (me for one), so I seriously doubt anything's going to change on that score. I've come to realize that just about anything goes on Synthzone, of which is probably a big part of the appeal of this forum for some members here.

Scott

Well let's look at the emotional response to the dig...

'Live PA' can have SO much difference to one person or another. For a start, the VRX's are designed for 'live PA' applications, which for many people (other than maybe here!) probably means the amplification of a live band.

Just the clean amplification of a REAL drummer to close to concert levels requires more than a PAS system for him alone! In fact, look at all of Bose's literature on the PAS system, and you will see their recommendation of an entire PAS system for each member of the band, including the singer(s)... Now, I don't know about you, but there aren't many bands in today's economy that are willing to pony up $2-3k EACH for a PA, each of which has to be operated independently (what does the sound-man do, run all the control boxes offstage for each one individually?). It's all very well to say you each operate your own mix, but experience has shown few live musicians have the technical chops (or the self control!) to mix themselves correctly night after night in different venues.

You see, there can be very different interpretations of 'live sound'. If you look at it in this light, it is perhaps easy to say that the PAS is indeed a 'joke' for this kind of application (no more than using a VRX would be a 'joke' in a country club situation, though!).

For the amplification of pre-canned backing, whether arranger, SMF's or MP3's, with their DRASTICALLY reduced dynamic ranges compared to 'live', the PAS can do a far better job, IMO, but if you do a mixture of some live gigs, some arranger based, some indoors at low volume, some outdoors at very high volumes, one of these things is just not going to cut it. At $3k a pop for the new L2's, and a stack of bass subs, you could buy an equivalently loud conventional system AND a TOTL arranger for that!

But I'm sorry, perhaps you ARE on the edge of the future of live sound... The VRX's are in fact a line array design like the Bose's. But built and spec-ed for an entirely higher level of performance and usage. Joke or not? That would depend on what you intend to use it for, and how loud you want to be....

Thank you Diki - that's the kind of reply I was hoping for.

What I really want to know is whether or not Mr. Greely was thinking along similar lines when he made his statement.

He's probably just another troll, (that was his first and only post - wasn't it? I could be wrong) but I would like to know exactly what he meant.

Yeah, freedom of speech is allowed here. And that includes your criticism of how you think I allow too much freedom of speech. I know you recommend much tougher censorship. Sorry, aint gonna happen.

I don't understand how you guys just don't skip over postings that are made just to get you worked up. You know straight off that a posting has no value to you .... but yet some of you still manage to let it waste your time and energy. I thought most of you were smarter than to allow that to happen. Just move on. This sort of provoking will always happen in a public forum online from time to time. Try to be smart enough to realize that, recognize it when it happens and simply move past it ... if you're not well ......


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 05-19-2008).]

Yeah some of us (including myself) should have known better.

I do try to give EVERY person's thoughts consideration though - if you don't, you become as arrogant and offhand as some of those very same posters.


(Point taken though Nigel)