I responded to a post by Lucky2Bhere in the 'Guitar Center' thread (with predictable results). The gist of it is repeated here:

quote:
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Originally posted by Lucky2Bhere:

Ref the GC situation. I can see it going a step further than that. In the near future you're probably going to see even fewer pro arranger keyboards on the market. Has anyone noticed that no one these days takes the time to learn or play professionally (OR sing even...watch American Idol). Music and performing will somehow be integrated into a computer (which is a natural seque as computers do everything for us now anyway).
Meantime, I'm NOT throwing away any old keyboards!


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Although your argument is kind of contradictory (not learning to play should help, not hurt, the development of arranger-type keyboards, as they represent the ultimate in computer-assisted 'playing'), I tend to agree with the part about not taking the time to learn to play at a professional level. I've said many times before that the 'ultimate' arranger is a MP3 player. That's one of the reasons I returned to straight organ playing. Although today's organs (ie. Nord C1) are lighter in weight and have a few electronically-based convenience features (ie. transpose), there is nothing there that's going to help you if you can't play. It kind of forces a return to musicians playing music.

Despite it's usefulness as a tool for OMB-type entertainers, if you look at it's (home-organ) roots, I'm guessing that it was never intended as a professional-use instrument, and the proof lies in how they are marketed. AND, despite what you may hear here on this board, you won't find many in true professional venues, either. When you see the bands on shows like Letterman, Leno, American Idol, etc., you will NEVER, EVER, see an arranger keyboard, only workstations, workstations, workstations.

You may have noticed that our beloved Ian is never more unloved than when he occasionally points out that no matter how much we want to believe that our arrangers are 'pro' instruments, they are marketed to, and intended for, the home market. Little clues like 'one-finger chords' still don't provide sufficient evidence for some of us .

We keep asking for features that helps us sound better while playing less. Why do we keep demanding less of ourselves and more of our keyboards? Here's some more news; audiences don't REALLY prefer MP3's, midi files, and arranger styles, to 'real' live music; we've just trained them to accept it (in some venues).

We tell ourselves that we're giving our audiences more (by using arrangers), but we're not. Some of the very best acts that I've seen in my lifetime have been with a single acoustic guitar or piano. What was common about them? They could all REALLY, REALLY PLAY.

I'm not really 'dissing' arranger keyboards; that would be ridiculous on an arranger forum. I just think that they should not be used as an alternative to learning to play. In all honesty, I also don't think they should be used in a professional setting either, but that's a personal thing with me. I think that they are wonderful tools for songwriters and excellent sketchpads for arrangers and composers. I even think that they can be an excellent source of creativity but should never be the end-product. I also think that my opinion is just that, my opinion. Not gospel, just opinion. Now, let's hear yours (without calling me nasty names).

chas (Tyros 2, PA1x Pro)

PS: Feel free to Hijack it or ignore it. They're only thoughts and opinions which you can agree or disagree with. Not exactly Darfur or Global Warming.

Actually, I think the use of "home arrangers" by "professional" players is rather clever.

Ian

Diki,

I must respectfully disagree with you on this one. I started out as a lead guitar player and vocalist at age 17, which was 50 years ago. I was rockin' crowds at niteclubs in Barcelona, Spain, Naples, Italy, Rhodes, Greece, Norfolk, Virginia and lots of other locations for nearly four years. I performed with a relatively large group (5-piece country and R&R band).

It was a wonderful experience, we had a great time together, but when I left them I switched to a drum machine, mic and guitar. Yep, it was me, a OMB in that smoke-filled bar room with lots of drunks dancing and singing along with my performances.

When arranger keyboards came along, I switched and never looked back. The same audiences that I performed to for many, many years loved the NEW ME! They loved the sounds, loved the songs, loved the vocals and the dancefloors were always packed. That was a long time ago, and the only thing that has changed is the technology that makes the arranger keyboard an incredible tool.

I performed today for about 50 seniors, folks that were not much older than myself. An 80-year-old guy in the audience said to me "Wow! I loved everything you did, your voice is incredible, and that machine you're playing is beyond anything I've ever heard."

I'll be the first to admit I'm not a polished player. The arranger keyboard, however, allows me to be very creative, do things I could never do as a solo guitar player/vocalist, the things I now do. Without the arranger keyboard I would still be perched upon a barstool, playing my guitar and singing my heart out for $150 a night.

In response to your post pertaining to the keyboards, most of the performers on this forum, and most other forums I actively participate on, these are NOT home keyboards in the hands of a pro entertainer. Yes, some have built-in speakers, most have 61 keys, they're lightweight and not all that expensive. It's not the keyboard, but instead it's the performer. The kids on American Idol are incredible performers--that's why they are where they are. BTW: I just read where Carie (spelling) Underwood made $12-million this year.

Cheers,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

Thanks Chas...

The only reason I asked to start your own thread is because I check the "email when there is a response" . When you go to the response and it has nothing to do with the
topic, it's a little frustrating.


So, let's talk about sounds on arranger keyboards.

Solo SOunds on Tyros do not equal Motif.
Korg PA series sounds do not equal Triton.
Roland G-70 sounds do not equal the Fantom.

Is this what your saying ?

Forget about the drum tracks and everything else that an arranger brings to the table.

Gary it's not Diki ...

No, re-read my post. This is not what I'm saying. That's because I'm not talking about sound comparisons with workstations or drum tracks; I'm talking about a concept.

chas

Oh, and Gary, although I can see how it could be easy to confuse me with my evil twin, Diki, the truth is, I think we're actually at odds on this particular subject.

originally posted by chas:
"....When you see the bands on shows like Letterman, Leno, American Idol, etc., you will NEVER, EVER, see an arranger keyboard, only workstations, workstations, workstations."


Would you expect to ?!? ... Arrangers are MADE for OMB - home user or PRO... why would a kb player in a band like Letterman's, or any other BAND for that matter, NEED an arranger ? ...
They are made for those of us who ENTERTAIN people with no other LIVE musicians, except perhaps a sax player or guitar player ... that IN ITSELF doesn't NECESSARILY make us any less a professional than anyone else ...

When I have the opportunity to play with a group - drums, bass, etc., the arranger is put in 'piano' mode and all accompamiment is turned off ......
t.

Glad you cleared that up.

OOOPS! I meant to address this to Chas. My bad.

Gary

I see what Chas "Charles, Charlie" is trying to say alright. Arrangers do not necessarily make you a polished keyboardist because the accompaniment detracts from correctly playing the keys and therefore keeps you from advancing in your keyboard playing skills. Advancing in proper technique key playing that is. But I think you are forgetting Chas "Charles, Charlie - Hey you!!" lol >> sorry Chas I couldn't resist, you are forgetting that most OMB players don't play in accompaniment mode 24/7, at least most of them anyway, so there are opportunities for arranger players to practice up on their Piano/Organ, etc. skills when the ACMP is off. Like Tony said, when he plays in a band setting he plays in Piano mode. As do I as well. In fact there is no way an arranger keyboard could/should be used in a real band setting beyond maybe doing so on an occassional basis with a Bass player and Drummer perhaps. When I am playing with a band I always turn accompaniment off. If I didn't sharp objects would be flying towards me in rapid succession.

I play my Tyros "oftentimes" in my home studio without any Style accompaniment and in fact OMB playing for me is maybe only 30% of my total playing experience with arranger keyboards. And I agree wholeheartedly that most professionals (big time artists) use an arranger only for a sketch pad or for making song arrangements in the studio or on the road and wouldn't be caught dead on stage with an arranger and especially with an arranger in accompaniment mode. Although with the advancements in keyboard technology and with soon coming breakthroughs in making arrangers sound more natural and life like to what a real band in a real band setting sounds like i.e. not mechanical or artificially canned looped based sounding so much, then things could drastically change and we might even see these big names playing an arranger (although I don't think they will be called arrangers but something else by then) - on stage in a live setting and with other band members playing along on their respective instruments. Maybe not in our lifetime but in my opinion it could be in our lifetime. I think the Ketron Audya is a trend setting step in that direction right now. And I'm sure Yamaha, Korg, and Roland will follow in that direction as well. If not, they risk being left behind the technological curve in my opinion.

It's a great day to be a keyboardist, and "especially" of the OMB kind in my opinion. And the reason I say that is because there are going to be things done with arranger keyboards in the near future technology wise that are most likely gonna blow our minds! No, it won't make a person play more skillfully in a correct technical fashion per se (he or she will need to do that themselves in Piano Mode ) but from a technology standpoint of what these new arrangers will be able to do musically and sonically will be astounding to say the least. And all I can say is bring it on!!

Best,
Mike

For Christ sake do we have to have a pissing contest to decide the value of arranger keyboards? They serve a purpose. They help those of us who are out there to sound not only good but great. BTW, you can play on an arranger. Don't you have a right hand? You can play incredible back up orchestrations, jazz leads, comps, ect. The only thing the arranger is doing is giving you the backups. And it's only doing that by way of the direction you give it. If you play sucky chords, that's what it will give you. If you play well thought out, well voiced chords, that's also what it will give you. I spent many years playing my own bass lines and all of the other lines. I find it nice to have the arranger pick up some of that. And I thought this forum was for arranger players.

Joe

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Songman55
Joe Ayala

Joe,

Your making alot of sense....
I have to agree with you all the way.

To clarify what I was trying to say:

For the last few years I've been casually talking to music dealers, salesman, musicians, and even some folks at Roland in California about arranger keyboards. The message has basically been that the high end arranger keyboards are not selling. In my area, one by one either the store closed (from Internet competition) or they stopped carrying the "biggies." I'd have to go into NY to see anything appreciable now and even then my understanding is those stores are even limited.

My own personal opinion is what I said previously (from my observations of the music performance arena)...that fewer musicians are investing in top of the line equipment. Why buy one of these exotic models when you never learned how to play correctly to begin with and your fast-food mentality will cause you to discard it before your 5 o'clock shadow appears? And then there's the economic squeeze where no one can afford these monstrosities anyway! And if you DO buy one, do you really want to sit down and take the time to learn how to program it (especially if it's a Ketron!)in today's busy world?

My prediction is that, yes, arranger keyboards will be around for a long time to come but only as small toys and party favors.
But..in the back of my mind, I really hope I'm wrong!

Lucky

First of all, I'd like to thank Gary for assuming that a controversial topic MUST have been started by me!

And I rather think that chas and I ARE on opposite sides on this one, but only in a SMALL way... I agree completely about the use of arrangers as a crutch for those that COULDN'T sound that good, even if they DID have a live band around them, but the way you use an arranger is entirely up to the player. If you can already blow, what you blow ON is not very important, as long as it sounds good.

The reason you NEVER see arrangers on Letterman is that those guys NEVER have to pull off an OMB situation. They got a band for everything they do (and a damn good one at that!). What use is all the auto stuff if you NEVER need it? But that brings us to players that SOMETIMES need it, and sometimes don't. Many of them will use a WS for the live band, and an arranger for the OMB. Me, I'm not in that camp. I prefer the familiarity of ONE keyboard for everything, if it is versatile enough. Live, OMB, recording, whatever...

Familiarity with your keyboard means less time thinking 'how do I put some more reverb on the string layer without putting it on the piano on THIS keyboard?' and more time just thinking about a great line to play. That's the only thing that is REALLY important, anyway.

Hence the reason I lug the G70 around. It (and the Korg PA1/2XPro's) are the only things that compare to REAL WS for the straight playing side (none of them have the loopstation thing down like WS's, but that is no more PLAYING than using an arranger's auto stuff). 76 keys (that's what you see most non-auto players playing or 88's, unless they have multi-keyboard rigs), 'pro' build quality for the long-term durability (and the hell with what it weighs... how long it LASTS is what is important!), first call piano, rhodes and B3 sounds (your main meat and potatoes). It doesn't get much better than this.

Now add in the arranger side for when you DO need this. Apart from the guitars (which are OK, but there are better!), I'll still put my G70, and me playing it, head to head with any other arranger out there. Many of us (including me!) obsess over every little detail in the OS of our (and everybody else's!) arranger, but bottom line (and here I agree with chas and Donny ( ), if you can't blow WITHOUT an arranger, you can't blow WITH one...

Now whether that makes you non-professional, I can't say. The definition of the profession keeps changing. It USED to mean you weren't professional, but today's market, for better or worse (OK, just worse!) is totally different. As our youth's market was totally different from our parent's. I remember (OK, I'm too young, but I can read!) when musicians called Les Paul's multi-tracked recordings 'cheating'. Not quite the same thing, but you get my point. Technology changes the definition of playing.

Let's face it, though... The primary reason many of us (at least, the gigging pros) use arrangers is economical. Few of you want to play with other musicians. You might make a bit less money. Then some of you play with arrangers because you don't want the hassle of finding musicians to play with, and the aggravations that can cause. And, I'm afraid, some of you maybe can't play well enough yourselves to attract musicians to play with YOU that are better than the pre-canned ones in arrangers!

Now, what you tell YOURSELF the reason for using arrangers in an OMB situation is may be different, but look at it honestly... If you COULD make as much money in a real band, and they were as good (or better, hopefully!) as the 'musicians' in your arranger, and the drummer didn't hit on your old lady why on EARTH would you prefer to play with a machine?

The fact is, there ARE players making more than you. And they NEVER play with machines. How do they do it? Easy... they are monster musicians. Full bore, 24/7 dedicated killer players. Can YOU play that well?

If not, whether you play with a machine or a real band, it's time to shed! Enough worrying about whether you have the latest, greatest, state of the art mechanical backing band, and more worrying whether you are the state of the art YOURSELF...!

The Pro establishment pulls out every trick in the book to ridicule portable keyboards, as can be seen here http://www.jazzhooves.com/index.html (And this is in a country where the arranger keyboard is accepted, so keep your fingers crossed they never put one on US TV, where arranger keyboards are treated as the lowest of the low by the establishment)
This is also not the first time that this has occurred.

Bill

C'mon, Bill... Somehow, this show is funny when a really bad singer gets the Simon treatment, but NOT when it's a really bad keyboard player??

The show disgusts me, and I NEVER watch it, but NOT because they are in some conspiracy to demean arranger keyboards. It's a conspiracy to demean EVERYONE, in the guise of 'entertainment'. And for me personally, the idea of a show where a considerable number of the entrants are deliberately chosen to humiliate them is just a little bit 'schadenfreude', a little too much Berlin in the 1920's... and we all know where THAT led!

Why can't we simply take joy anymore in the display of talent? Why is it SO much more successful if it includes the humiliation of the untalented? Have we all really stooped this low..?

I regard topics as this, as an English exercise and reading comprehension test. It is a difficult task, and that is where its "learn value" is, to distinguish what everyone here is saying, and then to try to realise if the poster has understood the concept of the thread, or what the others have been saying.

IMHO, Joe Ayala nailed in the head.

Also, a phrase Diki said, "...if you can't blow WITHOUT an arranger, you can't blow WITH one..." points to an important truth: That a poor player (like myself) will sound equally poor on a Steinway recorded inside a million dollar studio, as well as in a cheap Casio, recorded in my home.

In my opinion, a professional (musician or otherwise) is someone who is relying on a skill or a combination of skills, to deliver results that get positively accepted by others, who in turn PAY him/her, and that PAY is a part, or the whole, if his/her annual income.

To put it this way, if I had to name the pros here, it would be easy. Take everyone, strip him of all financial assets, give him 100 dollars for food and a Casio and see if he can live off that and prosper. THAT is what a pro is. Diki can play my Casio, I cannot play his G-70.

To lighen the tone, it seems that since this is an arranger forum, and consequently WS players do not frequent here, so no arranger vs WS wars exist, that musicians are constantly finding ways to fight each other, over other excuses.... Mp3 vs midi files, midi files vs accompaniment, accompaniment vs left hand bass, all of the above vs karaoke vs B3 vs jazz etc.

As much as I like these threads, I think that I would like to see you pros cooperate and learn from each other, post music, critique etc. But, on the other hand, if this forum gets "too pro", I will have to leave. Cause I am not a pro.

Now, did I understand the meaning of the thread myself or not?

[This message has been edited by trident (edited 04-15-2008).]

So I set up my tools and place my tuning device on the piano. My job is to tune the piano to the best of my ability. My tuning device is the same as the guitar players use to tune their guitars, except it cost just under $2,000.
I am able to tune with precision that 95% of ear tuners CAN NOT do. In the past a tuner did his best to guess in certain areas, because of my tuning device I do not have to guess.

A comment that has been given: “You don’t have to use you ear anymore, there goes another art”.
A comment I overheard on a job, I was playing my keyboard live: “All that music is recorded in the keyboard, I think it’s like a tape recorder”.

This clearly tells me that we have ignorant people roaming about. I play in local condos, and on rare occasions have played at the Breakers Hotel here in Florida, it is one high-end hotels in Palm Beach. Why do you not see OMB in this Hotel?
1-If you can afford this hotel the dollars for a live band is normally not a problem.
2-A OMB is what you use to save money.
I played a job back in New York where the bill for the flower arrangement was $100,000. They did not hire a OMB.

All of that being said – one more thing – and I am saying this in my best humble manner – my OMB sounds better than most of the 4 to 5 men groups I have heard. Arranger keyboards are look down as a toy representing no status by both the public and the pro musicians.

Fact: It takes a lot more talent and knowledge to play a live OMB, I have to know about all instruments and how they should be played. A n d, I have to know all about programming my instrument. And I have to do this all while I am singing or relating to whoever. I bet that some of the people who hire us feel we are using toys to perform, BUT smile as the pay for one man instead of 4 or 5 men.

I am proud and I enjoy playing my keyboard, it is the closest I can get to playing with a live band. After playing with a live band for so many years, and missing it, I can sit at my keyboard and earn and enjoy.

John C.

PS, I know of three big name book stores that have closed because of the Internet, I feel that is why arrangers are no longer displayed in most music stores.

You're right, Trident...it can be a effort to wade through all the fluff...I often wonder if some posters actually read what the've written before submitting.

I think Joe "nailed it in the head" as you so well described it...he echoes my sentiments very closely.

I don’t know what the key to success is, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone.

I use what is necessary (in my case, an arranger keyboard) to make a living with my music...a sin to the purist, but it is me (and my audience) I am trying to please, not the purist. I make no apologies. Period.

If it's stupid and it works...it ain't stupid.

And, Lucky2Bhere is right about stores not stocking high end arrangers...fine with me, because I get to take one around to the dealers so a few potential customers can actually hear one being played and get to try it themselves...job security for me, but not so good for those wanting to try one on their own time.

Even mid range arrangers aren't carried much any more.

Store "trying" and Internet "buying" have been the major culprits.

This thread may not establish much in the way of a conclusion...but it is bound to become entertaining.

I found this article by Tom Stampfli quite interesting...maybe some others will as well. http://music.utsa.edu/tdml/conf-I/I-Stampfli.html


Ian


[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-15-2008).]

.....including arranger players who choose not to use them in public performance and who think that they should not be used as a way to bypass traditional training (my main premise, BTW).

Why is it that any idea, expression, POV, or opinion, that is not in lock step with the popular view, is always dismissed with some version of the quote above. No matter how much you think someone "nailed it", the message is lost on me when it ends with such a dismissive statement, implying zero tolerance for an alternate point of view.

There are usually 'bits and pieces' of truth in nearly all of the posts. MY 'truth' (for me) is that arrangers should never be a substitute for learning to play. On reflection, I would modify that to say "YOUNG PEOPLE learning to play". In other words, those with aspirations to become professional musicians. I would never give my child an arranger keyboard. Does this mean that I don't like arranger keyboards? Of course not. I own two (and enjoy playing at least one of them). It just means that I would want them to truly learn their craft, and enjoy their musical journey. You can drive from Maine to California or you can take a non-stop jetliner. If you believe in the concept of 'Journey', you will know what I mean.

So that there is no misunderstanding of my original post, let me distill it down to one sentence. I DON'T THINK THAT ARRANGER KEYBOARDS (USED IN ARRANGER MODE) SHOULD BE USED AS AN ALTERNATIVE TO LEARNING TO PLAY LEGITIMATELY.

How or if you choose to use one professionally, is strictly a personal decision which is completely valid for the person making that decision.

chas

What is the definition on Legitimate?
If you play, YOU PLAY simple as that...if you want to dream up some kind of purist attitude with an always underlying meaning to demean people that play music at any level & with ANY instrument in any way shape or form, I feel that is looking at it with blinders on. I play a Psr3000, I could well afford a TOTL arranger, but I'm comfortable with this for now. Is that wrong? many of my friends play arrangers professionally & for home use & many are excellent players who have told me that playing the arranger really gives them much enjoyment due the fact that they can do it all alone & still sound like a full band. I dont think many care out in the world about purism thoughts when they listen to or watch music performed. They just want to be entertained. This is an electronic world in all facets of life, Playing an instrument like the arranger either a inexpensive Costco Casio or a TOTL Roland G70 isn't any different for young or old to learn & enjoy. I wish everyone played an arranger KB the world would be a happier place. Not everyone can do it correctly....but it surly brings joy to whoever does indulge or listens. I find that the ones who displike arrangers or the OMB concept are so called musicians tht feel that they have been cast aside & have no work anymore due to OMB's, high tech electronic arrangers etc. vs the old days of predominately live bands.....but the times are changing & you got to move with the flow & try to fit in & find your niche to survive.



[This message has been edited by John DiLeo (edited 04-15-2008).]

"So that there is no misunderstanding of my original post, let me distill it down to one sentence. I DON'T THINK THAT ARRANGER KEYBOARDS (USED IN ARRANGER MODE) SHOULD BE USED AS AN ALTERNATIVE TO LEARNING TO PLAY LEGITIMATELY.

How or if you choose to use one professionally, is strictly a personal decision which is completely valid for the person making that decision."

Finally, a statement that makes sense.

That makes sense, Chas...but why be so rigid...why not use an arranger keyboard as part of a musical education?

Ian

chas ... no disagreement with any of your points (imagine THAT )

By all means, if one (especially young players) wants to be a 'musician', the long road must be traveled ... there are NO short cuts ...
But an arranger can be used as a learning tool, and even provide an incentive for the short attention span of some young people - the 'instant gratification' idea - ...

And if by "Legitimately" you mean all proper chord voicings, scales, etc., I certainly do not disagree with that ...

t.

Because, from my perspective, it teaches them more about technology than music. It also teaches them the great American concept of instant gratification; ie. "gee, I can sound great without the bother of learning all those pesky scales and stuff". Problem is, who's going to be around to produce all those 'canned' sequences that we get when we push that 'one-finger chord'. Any doctor will tell you, "forget diet pills and vibrating belly belts; if you want to lose weight, learn to eat healthy and get off you fat, lazy, ass and get some exercise". Same principle applies here.

John Dileo, you've got to stop being so defensive. Funny, I don't hear any of those 'great' players that you admire so much, arguing against sound musical training. I don't think that believing a child or youthful beginner should first be grounded in the basics (which usually means formal training), makes me a purist. Unless, by purist, you mean the belief that a keyboardist should know how to play a keyboard or that those who profess to be musicians, should be proficient in music. JMO.

chas

Well, Chas I don't agree with your perspective, but I do respect your opinion.

Using an arranger AND a workstation AND a sequencer should be an integral part of a musical education...we aren't living in the dark ages anymore.

Technology has advanced in leaps and bounds since we took piano lessons.

These tools should be used to enhance a musical education in my opinion, and I'm looking at it from the perspective of many years as an educator with Yamaha.

But, that's what makes this thread interesting...one POV would be boring.

Ian

Chas I just meant that there are some people who always look down upon anyone that doesnt play a single SOLO instrument void of any electronic accompaniment...
such is why arranger players are so called "frowned upon". I would think it takes much more learning to play a arranger correctly with all that's involved then just an organ, piano, guitar or a solo instrument of any kind. Lets face it we're all becoming dinosaurs & trying to exist in the music world....versus the DJ driven electronic musical world which is saturating and overcoming it all very rapidly. So we try everything to hang on the the "Old Days" & find a place for what ever we play in to days world.

Not everyone that buys a musical instrument (whatever the price and the model) is a musician, or would like to be one, or can become one, in the same context as not everyone that can buy a muscle car has had or will take lessons in sports driving or someone that purchases a drill is a carpenter or can make it as one.

Some of us, (me actually, hope there are others) simply want to have a good time. And for those, an arranger is a Godsend. We have something that can provide entertainment to US, and sometimes, if we play acceptably, to others also. Sometimes it can pay off a mortgage.

I don't really think I SHOULD endure formal education for 2-3 years before I can produce something that resembles a song I heard on the radio. Or endure endless years of formal (not to mention rigorous) training to become a classical pianist, only to discover that I can't play anything that is not classical, or that I can't play a chord without reading staff (happened to a friend). I can do both with my arranger, to some extent.

Of course, I don't go around and pose as a musician. But I am having a hell of a good time!

Chas is describing what things "should" be, and he is right. No musician is a musician until he has proper education.
But John DiLeo is closer to reality. Actually they are the two sides of the same coin.

[This message has been edited by trident (edited 04-15-2008).]

But you would be wrong. And I say this with the utmost respect. Of course, I'm assuming that you mean playing each at a high level of proficiency. I think you will have a hard time finding support for that POV, even on THIS (arranger-oriented) board.

chas

chas

As a long-time arranger player (mid-70's with an auto-orchestra), it is my opinion that is is much harder, but much more satisfying, to play a solo with just piano or guitar.

Style comes into it, of course (couldn't play a dance gig with just a grand piano), but my approach is to use arrangers as a tool, not as a crutch. An arranger is my last choice when working.

Sadly, around here, most of the people working with arrangers never worked until they used arrangers. Just didn't have the "chops".

Upfront, I admit I'm about as "old school" as it gets, and this is my opinion...for ME, and not a suggestion that anyone else needs to believe the same way.

There's no substitute for ability. All things being equal, the better you are as a traditional player, the better arranger player you'll be.


"rigid" Russ

It has been my experience that "rigid" traditional players have a very hard time adjusting to playing an arranger, especially in auto-accompaniment mode.

Their "chops" actually get in the way...especially left hand.

Organ players seem to manage better than piano players, but neither can take to it without a lot of adjustments and re-thinking.

I've seen this happen many times and with very competent traditional players.

Ian the Flexible

Surprise, surprise, Chas. I Agree!


Russ

My mother is 90 and knows nothing about music or recording or sound systems never owned a cd. Even records and record players where a big luxury in our house.
But she knows when she sees a piano player playing piano beautiful music she enjoys it. When she hears the organist at the roller rink or the restaurant she enjoys it. When she sees a small combo with an organ drums guitar whatever she enjoys it.

When she sees one guy with one keyboard that sounds like a whole band with drums and horns and strings an guitars and bass and etc. Singing in harmony with 3 voices and it's just him on the stage, She doesn't know the technology but she knows he's not playing all that.
She knows he's using something to enhance his performance whether it is tape or a midi or style, that she doesn't know, she just knows one man is not doing it all.
Now the entertainer gets up and walks around the room singing while the keyboard is playing itself....
She's lived through the depression and 90 years of supporting herself and her family and still lives in her own home alone so who is ignorant?

All that music IS in the keyboard we just trigger the changes and arrange it in real time but we're not playing the drums and bass and horn lines. Maybe one line but not all of them.
I'm not trying to start anything here there is a talent to it and performing and singing take a talent all it's own. But let's not try and take too much of the credit for the machine.

[This message has been edited by mikeathome1 (edited 04-15-2008).]

i dont know if this has been added in the mix but what about inspiration ? I am not a pro player but i am working on it. The one thing that an arranger does that a traditional linear instrument does not do so well is inspire a musician . When i switch on my PAX i have the worlds best musicians at my finger tips and they teach me ! I have learned new licks and runs and progressions just from listening to the intros and endings in all types of styles.

I play both in arranger/piano mode and straight piano. Sometimes all i have is drum and bass and main keys on when i play with the PAX scanning the full keys.

I agree with the initial premise that an arranger should not be used as an excuse not to learn to play but i believe that it actually can help people to play. I had 3 years formal Jazz tuition on a standard 88 key piano. I read the music from the sheet and although i have a natural ear for music i found learning jazz in this way stilted and false. When i got my arranger i started hearing stuff in the jazz styles that although i was being taught it , it did not really make sense until it was encompassed in the complete sound of a bass and drum and horns. I have learned more about playing jazz in practice through playing two handed on my arranger supplemented by formal learning.

I dont think musicians should hide behind the auto accompaniment. But when used well and skillfiully you can get some incredible results

Nice to see a return to civility in the thread, even if the opinions continue to differ. And therein lies the rub. We (some of us) seem to think that all threads that advance some kind of premise, MUST have a unanimous conclusion. How many times, including in this thread, do you see people arguing some point that is only remotely related (and sometimes not at all) to the thread's original premise. Dan01 was entirely correct in telling me to 'start my own thread' when my post veered away from the original topic. I think this thread proves that a thread can host an exchange of ideas, be entertaining, and still not be confrontational. But let's not go off the deep end......after all, it's still SynthZone .

chas

Sorry, guys, but here I go again..!

Sadly, the thing about arranger play, and ESPECIALLY arranger play from those that learned to play on an arranger, is the fact that it can sound pretty good, even when you are awful! I can't count the number of truly appalling solos trotted out sometimes by their proud creators at different sites, and if you ask these folks if they can play, they'll say 'sure I can... listen to this'.

Trouble is, stop the arranger and listen to what is actually played, not sequenced, and it's pretty grim. The pre-canned Intro gets you all worked up, then they start playing... ouch! The arranger is the ultimate self-deception tool. Surround a ghastly sax emulation with a pillow of nice bigband styles, and all of a sudden you've got someone who thinks they deserve to be onstage. And, if their price is right, that's where they'll end up!

But if that arranger ever crashes...

But, in the hands of those that can already blow by themselves adequately, or experienced full band players, they can be amazing, but the pitfall so many fall into is using more mechanical stuff than they HAVE to. I try to treat mine like a rhythm section... Bass, drums, guitar (if I haven't got one), and that's it. So how do you get the piano AND the horns AND the strings, and all the other parts, you ask...? Same way you get them if you were in a four piece. You PLAY them ALL. Live. Old school. You don't have a left and right hands, you have two right hands!

Velocity splits, layers, expression pedals... all of these can be used to squeeze more sounds out of your playing than you could ever imagine. But you are unlikely to try it (and hence develop those techniques) if your arranger already does it for you. 'But why SHOULD I learn how to do this, if my arranger already does it so well?', you ask... Well, ask yourself this - what would you do if a great band in your area offered you the position? Good money, GREAT players to play with, music you enjoy. Could you actually pull off live what they have heard you do on an arranger?

If NOT... Time to shed!

Some of you have commented about how much better you sound since you left live playing, and moved to arrangers. I'm sorry, but the only thing that tells us is how poor that band you were in must have been! The thought of a guitarist playing EXACTLY the same two or four bar groove for an entire section of a song (or the entire song!) gives me the willies! Ditto the drummer, and don't get me started about the bassist! That's the one area an arranger doesn't even come close... A real bass player moves TOWARDS the next chord. An arranger bass moves away from THIS one. Totally different approach.

If you THINK you are making music with an arranger, turn it off and play live. Find out for yourself just exactly how much you are relying on the ACC. Then perhaps you can take a more realistic view of whether the arranger is helping, or hurting you at your goal of being a better musician.

As a learning and teaching tool, I LOVE arrangers. I DON'T agree with chas here. If you treat them as a VERY fancy James Aebersold exercise regimen, then they can instill great timing and adventurous solo habits LONG before you would be good enough to be invited to blow with a rhythm section that good. But use them as a reason to NOT learn multi-keyboard techniques and rhythm section play (you are VERY unlikely to get a position as keyboard SOLOIST, most songs only have 16 bars of soloing, tops!), and you are condemning yourself to ALWAYS having to play with them.

This isn't music, this is the FACSIMILE of music. It sounds like music, but it's a recording. That's all arrangers are. Small loops of canned music that follow your chords. No better than an SMF, except there, there don't have to be ANY loops..!

Arrangers are a great way for an experienced player to maximize his profits (and the club's that hires him), but it takes GREAT care to not let yourself get carried away by how good it sounds. And for the beginner or intermediate player, still learning, once again, it's a great tool only as long as it remains a small PART of your entire learning experience...

Technology changes, and at a rapid clip, these days. Invest your learning process solely to arranger play, and you run the risk of being out in the cold when other techniques become prevalent. But learn to do it ALL yourself, and you will be able to adapt yourself to any future technology MUCH faster...

Great post, Diki.......except for the part about not agreeing with me 100% .

chas

hi,
personally, if either of my sons had been interested in music, I wouldn't have encouraged them to play an arranger keyboard. I would have much preferred they took up piano or guitar or whatever. The younger one did learn guitar for about 6 months, but he was far more interested in playing sport.
As for myself, I was 20, and way too old according to my piano teacher , to ever become a decent piano player. I just wanted to be able to play the odd tune for self entertainment. 15 years down the track, along came the arranger keyboard & I was conductor, soloist & backing band all in one.

Still think a child should be taught a traditional instrument rather than an arranger keyboard. Also seems like a lot of the pro players using arranger keyboards, may have actually learnt and played a traditional instrument in the beginning ??

best wishes
Rikki

OMG ... my eyes hurt. I can't read anymore of this !!!!!!!!!
I'm going to hug every one of my ADHD OCD teens tomorrow!

The reason I have gone from workstations to arranger keybords is becasue I am not a drummer, bass player, string arranger, horn player etc.....

When a singer/songwriter like Neil Diamond, James Taylor or Billy Joel writes a song. They do not write the arrangement. The call in arrangers/producers for the type of song they wrote. Michael Omartian, david Foster,Maurice White.....To write and hire the players to play those parts. In some cases the actual band mambers write their own parts...

THATS what an arranger does for me. I write the songs and pick up the "phone" and call my buddy "Quincy Jones" or "Count Basie" or David Foster.....whom in turn hire Steve GAdd, Towr of Power, Stanly clark, Liberty Divito and maybe King Curtiss.....

AS a writer I no longer have to play bass parts like a beginning bass player, or Drums...Not too many songwriters were virtuoso musicians. Many just plunked a few chords on the guitar IE Neil Diamond, James taylor,,,,,,and let the professionals do the rest.

Thats what the arranger keyboard does that no organ ever did. Bring real musicians to the table.

If you want to play Jazz on a keyboard forget the style section, just stick with rhythm add a good set of bass pedals and a second keyboard (Yes folks it’s an organ) and play.
Alternatively get your self a quality drum machine and stick it by the side of the piano.
Finally go to a few Jazz clubs and listen to Real Jazz, as I can assure you that compared to Real Playing, all the Jazz styles on any arranger are TOTAL CRAP. (You will never make a Jazz musician using them as a guide)
If you do wish to use backing tracks or styles for your music in a live situation, create and play your own, do NOT use pre-canned versions. (The reason Keyboard Artists reach the top is because they play with minimal canned backing, (Normally just the Rhythm section) and spend time practicing and arranging, NOT letting the keyboard do the arranging)
If you just want to come back from the office/work and wind down, then stick on a suitable style and enjoy yourself. (Just don’t think that this makes you a professional musician)

Bill

I play an arranger keyboard for all of my gigs.

My audience comes to hear ME.

Am I cheating them?

Nope.

I make MY own styles, write out MY own arrangements of cover tunes(of all genres)and manage to achieve MY own distinctive sound on an arranger.

Are they hearing ME?

Of course they are.

I'm sure there are many other SZ forumites who do the same.

That's what makes arranger keyboards so darn cool!

Ian

But Ian you can play well with or without the arranger functions. I've heard some of your stuff and it is very well done.
I think the topic of this thread is or was, is the arranger an enhancement to your ability or replacement for your ability.

Back to the age old question performer or musician? Is one more legitimate than the other?

Disclaimer: my main instrument is not keyboard so the arranger replaces my ability.



[This message has been edited by mikeathome1 (edited 04-16-2008).]

Hi Mike,

Sorry if I went astray....my face is red.

I wasn't trying to go off topic as much as to indicate that the audience does hear the essence of the performer even when using an arranger in auto mode.

I feel it not only enhances a player's ability, but leads him/her into new unexplored territory that will benefit the audience as well.

I've heard some terrific arranger players during my stint with Yamaha....some were untrained but you'd never know it.

What is your main instrument?


Ian

Wow, so much wisdom. These are all facts, right? I'm pretty sure I don't own an organ, and how I play ( jazz or otherwise )was never determined by my instruments. I'm sure your words were intended to help somehow, but I don't see how.

And why not Bill?

I do the same thing...I come home, put on a suitable style and wail away and rid myself of all my frustrations....yet, I gig on the weekend and make a living doing the very same thing.

The reasoning behind your statement is a little murky? Can you possibly be a bit more vague?

Ian

Gee, UD, I thought they were all HERE !!! ...
t.

Uncle Dave is right. This is getting a bit nasty, but that's no surprise judging by the temperament in the progression of the posts on this topic. It's sad to see that all this bravado & ego slamming always takes precedence to ruin the overall mood. Who really cares? Just play music & enjoy what you do.

Why would you say that, John?

I fail to see any downward progression or deterioration in temperament...and I don't see anything "nasty"...actually I thought this thread was very civil and mostly on topic.

If you want perfect order...SZ is the wrong place to look for it.

I think this is a very interesting topic, and I'm glad that Chas posted it.

Let's see where it goes, will we?

Ian

And then there is 'freedom of choice'. You can choose to read or ignore, participate on not participate. Why is it that some people think that if THEY aren't interested in something, everyone else should just shut up about it. If there is no interest in a subject, it will die a natural death, or if it becomes too confrontational, Nigel will kill it. Why is it that some people feel that they have the god-given right to decide (for the rest of us) if something is insignificant or not? I think that we are perfectly capable of making those decisions for ourselves. Don't like a thread? Just move on. It's easy.

chas

I was just agreeing with Uncle Dave who is usually right in his assessments. I guess I'll move on as Chas suggests, this kind of attitude helps no one.

Sure, Dave is often right in his assessments, but I didn't read anything in his posts about this thread "turning nasty".

Ian

Ian sometimes you have to read between the lines. I'm sorry if I offended anyone here.
Lurking was so much easier. Maybe it's just because I'm not part of the upper echelon elite clique, but I dont feel I'm accepted.

[This message has been edited by John DiLeo (edited 04-16-2008).]

Everyone is accepted. It just that sometimes users read too much into the posts. (Not everything has a hidden meaning)
Basically if you want to make a comment, then do so, you’re not going to get shot for it. (The golden rule is to not take comments personally)
Above all enjoy yourself.
Regards

Bill

John, if I offended you...I apologize.

I'm glad to see you posting here...I enjoy your posts and would feel bad if you discontinued.

Ian

PS...read Chas' post below.

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-16-2008).]

First step towards 'acceptance'. Gotta shed that 'victim image'. I can't count the number of times Diki, Ian, chas, Fran, Donny, Tony, and other higher-than-average profile members, have been shredded to bits for something they posted. Since it didn't kill them, I guess it made them stronger . A few, like Rikki, Capt. Russ, DonM, and a few others, have somehow managed to stay above the fray, while still being able to (strongly) express their own opinions (an art we could all benefit from).

If you feel that 'lurking' is the level of participation that is right for you, then that is what you should do. But as long as it's not a personal attack (unacceptable by all), don't let a dissenting opinion make you feel victimized or unaccepted. You want to talk about not being accepted, I'll write a 500 page dissertation for you (starting in 1619). Now wipe those tears away and come on back into the fold.

Your BFF,
chas

Diki, Jamie is doing a multi-week TV show with the Lexington Jazz Arts Foundation here in Lexington. He still plays GREAT live. Kingfrog...very impressive knowledge of significant producers and musicians (Steve Gadd is one of my reall favorites. Jim (Abacus), your is the post in this thread with real substance, in my opinion.

Good, meaningful thread, Chas. Thanks to all for showing thoughtfulness and class on this.


Russ

Jamie Aebersold? I'd LOVE to hear that - I live in a Jazz hole down here. They think smooth jazz IS jazz! Wouldn't want to mess up their botox faces by actually SMILING, I guess!

I thought at first read you meant Jamie Cullum... Have you heard him play? There's an outstanding live DVD of a concert at Blenheim Palace in England out on Verve Records. Watch it if you can... I truly believe none of his CD's has captured more than 50% of what he can do. The boy can smoke!

Kingfrog... yes that certainly IS a who's who of great arrangers and players. BUT... I'm sorry, but those pre-canned styles are merely the SUGGESTION of those great talents. The repetition of tiny loops is NOT a technique that any of them have pursued until today's more hiphop ventures they've tried. You are actually calling up these guys for a (pretty average, IMO) four bar loop, not to arrange a whole song. I had the great pleasure of actually doing a session with Gadd, Gale, and the great Richard Tee, back in the eighties. Trust me... it did NOT sound REMOTELY like an arranger!

God is in the details...

The trouble is, all to many people (not you, necessarily, but SOME) think that, if they bring these so-called 'musicians' to the table, that automatically makes them one too!

I agree, as songwriting tools, arrangers have a VERY special place, allowing you to 'mock up' a song faster than just about anything out there. But you'll NEVER hear one (or at least, the arranger side of it!) on a commercial record. This is where you bring in REAL musicians, at least if you are not doing techno or loop-based music in the first place..!

Let's face it, all the hoopla about the Audya, and audio loop-based arrangers like MS just go to show, for those with discerning ears, there is still a VERY long way to go before any arranger is capable of fooling us that it IS 'real'.

One thing I guarantee. Even as a 'beginner' bass player, you are capable of playing a FAR more 'musical' bass line than ANY arranger... Don't sell yourself short!

For me, the best way to get close to the 'live band' sound in my productions, if I use an arranger at all, is to get the 'mock up' down with the arranger, then go back in to sequence mode, and gradually replace out ALL the machine stuff, or at least edit it so it doesn't repeat each iteration so exactly. Vary EVERY fill, do something to the guitar part each section so it isn't EXACTLY the same as all the others, and first and foremost... CHANGE THAT BASS LINE! Make the bassist anticipate the next chord and move towards it. An arranger has NO WAY of knowing what the next chord is until you play it, a real one knows in advance and shapes his line accordingly.

This might seem more work than you want to do, but trust me... it makes the difference between a 'mock up' and a real song.

Go back, and listen to some Quincy. Try and find two identical sections... Best of luck!

i dont think that you are making a fair comparrison. You are comparing apples with oranges. If you take the best musicians in the world and put them together i guess they would come up with some amazing music and would be playing freely and intuitively but their music would still have to follow certain rules. They would have toplay in the same key, in the same time, they would not all be able to solo at the same time, someone would have to do the "meat and potatoes" part of an arrangement so that the whole piece sounds tasteful.

The arranger keyboard does the meat and potatoes part and will never sound like Dream theatre . But as a player you can add spice and taset so that the entire performance demonstrates skill and training.

Yes there are greater restrictions and no it wont sound exackly like live musicians every time you play because you will have heard that 16 bar pattern many times over and will know that bass line pattern, will know that fill riff 1,2,3, etc and the only truly original element to what you play is you. but what you do within those constraints that i grant you exist is simply unlimited. Thats the exciting thing about arrangers.

I have played with live musicians who know absolutely nothing about taste and finess, who go at every note like their lives depended upon it. Drummers who think that hitting splash symols hard and often makes them great drummers even though they have no concept of time! But as some one who does regard themselves as a musician first(aspiring at least) who happens to play an arranger , i have ultimate flexibility when i use an arranger. I can play live with other live musicians and just the rhythm section or with rhythm and bass coming from my keyboard. Unfortunately many arranger players simply dont aspire to do much more than accompany the accompanyment. But dont blame the instrument. I have come accross mediocre bass players,guitarists too but i dont blame the instrument for the poor sound.

The ultimate arranger player is Jordan rudess but he would not describe himself as one. But he uses the technology within th oasys (and the kurzweil before that) just like an arranger player would use an aranger with registrations and samples that are set up and triggered when he plays certain keys. He may have created or sampled all the sounds himself but he triggers certain patterns just like we do.

Its just far more impressive and clever and less predictable when he does it

Yo Chas.... Man am I glad you started a new thread.

Unless of course, it was the artist's intent to use the prefab sound from the rhythm section of a keyboard.

Leonard Cohen's, Tower of Song, for instance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYJf4J7VBaY

-mike

Wow! Mike, how do you find these things? Cool!

Ian

Mike is one of my heros, and spalding hit the nail on the head. I'm sure glad the boat goes in the water tomorrow. Then I won't have an excuse to log on to the forum. Have a good summer guys and gals.

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

Look, guys, please don't forget... I use an arranger myself!

I am not knocking their use, just their abuse! Your Jordan Ruddess quote showed quite precisely where I stand on this. Great musicians DO occasionally use arrangers. And so do MANY very poor ones. How you USE the technology is what's important. Scour the Internet for ONE tune where a real artist has used one doesn't negate the fact that the overwhelming 99.9999% of them DON'T.

One thing you will NEVER see is Jordan holding down a chord in his left hand, and playing a simple one note solo over a factory style, and calling himself a musician because he can pull this off. Just like Ian, and some others here do, he designs these loops and 'styles' himself, and uses them as part of a MUCH more complex performance. And you will NEVER hear Jordan saying he PREFERS to play with these machines because of how poor his 'live' musician friends are..!

Look, I'm sorry if I'm going to tweak anybody's ego here, but if all the musicians (or most of them) that you have played with have been lousy, perhaps it's time to look in the mirror. I know for a fact that great musicians like to play with OTHER great musicians. Why are you playing full time with an arranger, if you WOULD like to play with great musicians? Why aren't YOU getting the call? Why are most of the people you have played with so bad?

Everyone slags the 'poor' drummer, or volume deaf guitarists... What about the arranger player that drowns his accompaniment out? Or can't play in time with his backing (because he can't HEAR the drum part, maybe? ). What about the arranger player that trots out a 'sax solo' that hasn't got ONE bend in it, or a spot where a sax player might BREATHE, for Pete's sake? I've heard SO many of these, and then they have the gall to complain about the poor musicians that WILL play with them!

I guess I tend to assume that any player's goal is to become a better musician. After reading MANY comments here, I am obviously wrong about this. Many (not all, obviously, so don't just ASSume this is about you - look in that mirror for yourself ) simply want the latest technology, so they DON'T have to become a better musician. As long as it's all done for you, why bother?

Why bother, indeed...

Cant blame you Gary....Bon Voyage....
have a great Summer Sailing!
I'm jealous....btw do you ever play your arranger on board!

John,

When I get a 47 Morgan Out Island, which I hope will be next year, I'll be heading for Marathon Key, Florida, spend my winters there playing the tiki bars and drinking margarettas. Seems like the logical thing to do--especially because I'm not in the same league with guys like Diki and Chas. I'll just have fun doing what I've been doing for the past 50 years, entertaining people who want to have fun.

Cheers,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

Gary.....man o man that sounds great!
I would say you know exactly what your doing, & doing it very well. The people of south Florida are in for a real musical treat for sure.

Hey Ian,

I'm rather familiar with that song along with other Cohen classics.

The video I was looking for was his 1988 Austin City Limits performance where he walks out on stage, starts the drum track (same Technics board), stops it, fidgets with a button or two, then starts it again. Ah technology....

Carry on!

-mike

I don't know what kind of effect you were going for with that statement, Gary. Never thought of you as being the petty type. Also don't know what part of my post would elicit such a comment. Still, I respect your right to say it, whatever the intent. Happy sailing.

chas

Chas,

No disrespect. Diki says you're a hell of a jazz player, and I assume that's the case. I'm not a good player, never professed to be, just an entertainer. I only wish I had half the talent some of the guys on the forum have when it comes to playing. I can't read a note, never could, don't have enough formal training to even talk about, but I have a lot of fun doing what I do--entertaining. For me, a guy that began playing a 6-string guitar and singing in a smoke filled bar at age 17, then graduating to a 12-string guitar and playing bigger bars and restaurants for 10 years, the arranger keyboard is the best thing since sliced bread. Sure, I play a lot of different types of music, even some jazz, but I have always envied individuals that have hands that can fly over any instrument and hit all the right notes. And, from what Diki says, you're in that category. I don't always agree with what Diki says, or for that matter what anyone else says, but I do read every post and even at my age I continue to learn by reading the threads on this and other forums. There are some extremely talented and inteligent individuals here. Sometimes they get into a pissin' contest, which irks the hell out of me, but that's another story.

Cheers,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

Diki ... yes, he can ... but I saw him live at the Newport Jazz Festival a couple of years ago, and while singing "I get a kick out of you" he would KICK the keybed at the "appropriate" (?) time ... then he stood on the piano bench and would run his bare feet (he was barefoot for his whole show) up and down the keys ... If a piano player can't show respect for a Steinway Grand Piano, what can he show respect for? ... He turned me off ...
t.

LOL... yes! I wanted to see the look on his piano tech's face. But in fairness, they are a LOT more robust than people give them credit for, and Jamie has been, let's be kind and just say 'muscular' with his pianos for a LONG time. Any rental company will have a damage rider, and only themselves to blame if they do not know what kind of act he does!

But standing on the piano, slamming the lid, messing around inside the frame, strumming the strings, damping by hand... these techniques go back a LONG way before Jamie (Jerry Lee, anyone?). Some of the 'prepared piano' techniques even give ME the willies!

Perhaps it is time that we stopped treating pianos with some kind of religious reverence, and started treating them like other musical instruments... no worse, but no better. Many a kid has been intimidated OFF of playing piano by the scare some adults put into them about treating it nice...! They ARE percussion instruments, after all

Try telling a guitarist not to knock the body, or a bass player not to slap it around! And don't get me started about drummers!

Next time you see a beat up piano, give it a kick...! See who gets hurt first

And Gary... sorry if the discussion gets a little passionate at times. Price you pay, I guess, for BEING passionate!

You know, I don't really get the point of coming to a online forum, and then reining in what you want to talk about. It's a fair bit of typing (not my best skill!), time spent and thinking to get across whatever you want to say. If all I wanted to do was mumble a few platitudes and not really care one way or the other, why would I bother..? I could go down a bar and do that!

Look, I'm not putting down 'entertainers'. A LOT of you sing FAR better than me, and have your audiences very dialed in, great repertoires, strong work ethic, you name it. I give respect where it is due...

The trouble gets where a few decide that, as they now sound the best they ever had, it MUST be because they are a better musician than they used to. You have never come across like this, so please don't read any more into what I say than WHAT I say...! But get the latest, greatest TOTL arranger, whatever, and it makes NO difference to your ability as a 'musician'. But it can SURE make you a better 'entertainer', and there's nothing wrong with that.

Just keeping a level head, with the 'instant gratification' factor that arrangers give us all is important, I believe. Or, sooner or later, we start to convince ourselves we ARE better players than we used to be. Turn OFF your arranger and find out the real truth...

I do NOT believe in the 'too old to learn' excuse. That's all it is. Some of us keep learning, and growing until the day they bury us. And SOME of us use the crutch of the arranger to STOP. There's a great big wide world of music out there, and to miss out on it because you let your arranger do the work rather than learning to do it yourself seems such a waste...

Modern arrangers are MORE than capable of holding their heads high in a live band compared to WS's. Give music making with OTHERS a try, from time to time. It can be a blast! Just remember to be as tolerant of THEIR musical shortcomings as they are being about YOURS...

This is one of the most interesting threads I have encountered in a while.

Unfortunately, not many persons see the value as we do in using the arranger in that way.


The power in an arranger is making your own styles, having your own arrangement of a cover (and not trying to sound like the original recording) and showing that you can be flexible in a song are ways in which the player’s ability can be showcased with an arranger.

You can tell the ones who really know what they are doing. If you can stay with an arranger for more than 5 years, rather than change every 10 months, you probably are a player.

Unfortunately some person just want to turn on a keyboard, press 1, 2, or 3 notes in their left hand and get a full prerecorded track and occasionally play something in their right hand and believe that they are great musicians and should be compared in value to a real gigging band.

Gary, the last posts by you and Diki are two of the best I've read on SynthZone. They both explain the value of both musicianship and the ability to entertain. Sometimes the two are combined and sometimes, not so much. As others, such as Capt. Russ who is more musician-leaning, have said many times before, I have nothing but the utmost respect for those who are able to entertain at a high level, and from what I can gather, you are one of the very best at it. And though you may say differently, I'm sure your musical skills are more than adequate to produce the professional product you offer to entertainment venues. If it's good enough to put you into a 47' sailboat, it can't be that bad .

I live in a town of about 70,000 with maybe 100+ venues that regularly offer live entertainment. I can play in about 3-4 of them; you could probably play in about 80 of them. That's the difference in being a 'niche' musician and a pro-level musical entertainer. My only 'entertainment value' is that I tend to make involuntary facial expressions when I play (which is embarrassing to me, by the way). Sorta' like BB King. It's because I really 'feel' (at the molecular level) blues 'licks' and exotic chords and tend to play in a blues/soul oriented way (I play a lot of minor key standards - i.e. Funny Valentine, Angel Eyes, etc.).

I DO NOT, DO NOT, DO NOT, LOOK DOWN on entertainers that use arranger keyboards (AS arranger keyboards) in their acts. In my view, music is merely the vehicle they chose to use to entertain. The music, though important, is secondary to the overall goal of ENTERTAINING. The 'music for music's sake', such as found in jazz clubs, is another matter. Different skill set (sometimes), different audience, different atmosphere, different world. Both have a place (and often even meet) in the overall entity we call the entertainment business. Anyone who thinks one is superior or has more value than the other is either an idiot or has way too much ego.

I still hold that (IMO) a young person with 'pro musician' aspirations, would benefit more from (initial) traditional training on a traditional instrument, rather than an arranger keyboard. This DOES NOT make me a hater of arranger keyboards OR the people that use them. It also does not make me a purist or an elitist. I hope this clears up my position.

chas

Chas:
I wish I would've gotten a better musical education as a youngster. I'm with you on that and I envy the guys that did. And continued though their lives. Although as mentioned in a post on the bar the pursuit of music has made a lot of my friends 60 year old children that still can't support themselves, because of one vice or another.

Diki:

Yes learning is a lifelong process but in my early 20's maybe when you were continuing your education and working on your craft I was having a family and working on the values and security I thought was important to provide for my family. Music took a secondary role, I never gave it up completely but I choose not to dedicate my life to it.

Who was right? Who was wrong?
I guess that's a personal choice.
I still enjoy music but, for me, it is still not on the top of the list.

But I'm glad that you both respect us "entertainers". And I do understand what I perceive to be your frustration about some entertainers pretending to be musicians.
But you have pretenders in all walks of life not just music.
Does the fact that I choose a different path make me less professional, or less passionate? As long as I don't oversell my abilities I don't think so.(see my disclaimer above)

Now look at all these differing viewpoints and how civil this post has remained, what's up with that?



[This message has been edited by mikeathome1 (edited 04-17-2008).]

Yeah, isn't it grand. ALTHOUGH, there are times when you wish you could eschew political correctness, collegial polity, civility, and the like, and just say, 'Man, that sucked.....keep posting if you feel you must, but stop telling everyone you're a WORKING PRO'. BTW, I never have these thought or feelings about people who say up front that they are amateurs, home players, or singers or instrumentalist who use arrangers for accompaniment but are obviously quite proficient on their primary instruments (or vocals). Of course, having the freedom to do that would open the door for personal attacks and hostile feelings that may have little to do with music. Anyway.....

Peace Out (for now )

chas

Chas
You don't have to say it.
Two quotes come to mind (right after here we go again) although neither one fits exactly
"thou protest too much" (excuse me for killing that one) and "who are you trying to convince me or yourself."

I'm glad we've had this time to talk now come on..Diki .. Ian.... everyone join us (singing) coumbaya coumbaya

[This message has been edited by mikeathome1 (edited 04-17-2008).]

True, Jamie certainly did not invent hard or unorthodox treatment of a piano - not by any means - BUT, and perhaps I am wrong in this, I hold jazz musicians to a different standard than rock and rollers ...I would not expect a concert pianist to treat a piano that way, nor would I expect jazz musician to ...

I don't think Captain Russ, chas, you, or anyone else here would treat an instrument with no regard for its value ...

And I will always look at a Steinway, Bosendorfer, Chickering, etc., with reverence ...

Question ... If you had a Steinway grand in your house, and little Johnny came in from seeing Jamie's performance and started walking on your piano key bed, would you NOT stop him ???

As for Jamie's talent, I have great respect for it ... I just wish he had more respect for the instrument he plays so well ...

Just my 2 cents worth ...
t.
PS ... sorry to get this thread off topic ...
t.

Uh, check spelling. Kumbayah or Kum ba yah.

"Though the song was originally associated with unity and closeness, it is now often referenced sarcastically to connote a blandly pious and naively optimistic view of the world and human nature."

Ring a bell, Mike .

chas

Can anyone logically argue AGAINST that statement??? ...

Like mikeathome1, I too wish I had been more diligent in my musical studies, because, supposedly, I was to be some sort of protege, even though I did not start music lessons until I was 13 yrs of age ... My not being a better musician is due only to my laziness and shortsightedness - but how many 13 year olds have a long range vision? ..
But I thank God, my parents, and my accordion teacher - that's right ACCORDION - for helping me develop a basis of musical interest and talent that has allowed my to ENTERTAIN people for 50 years ...

t.
PS ... and thanks also to the developers and manufacturers of arranger keyboards !!! ...
t.

Only if we can do it as a polka.

Ian

Diki, yes, Jamie A lives in New Albany, Indiana, about 80 miles from Lexington, Kentucky, near Louisville. I first met him in 1966 when he was playing at the St. James Court art show in Louisville. That's before he started his distinguished work as a music professor at the University of Louisville and his work with outside education projects. His family was a leading group in the construction of river steamboats. I admire that, besides being financially very comfortable (I've heard), he really made a name for himself.

The 4 Tv appearances here are produced by the local Jazz Arts Society. They're on public access tv. I'll see if I can locate a copy or copies. If I get them, I'll send them to you if you'll email your address.

His company also sponsors the series. He has to be in his mid 60's. He's fit, and blows all the other local tenor guys off the map.

Thanks to you, Chas and others who recognize the uniqueness of the jazz art form. Chas, the "higher personal standard" factor is something only you and other jazz "nuts" (both performers and listeners) understand.
It's most introspective. Playing for yourself...pushing the envelope to develop variations on the lead line...tempo alterations, structure modifications and more is unique to the art form.

It is a "niche" art form fraught with highs and lows (for some, sadly). The challenge, for me, at least, has been to not let the art form completely control my life...to avoid the lows and spend my musical life enjoying the ride.

And I have.


Russ

Great thread on multiple levels.

Russ

I stand corrected I didn't look up the spelling or the connotation

Ian any way you want! I can do Polka!

Diki, i just called the guy who is active in of the Jazz Arts Foundation and ordered three copies of the Jamey Aebersold series they're doing on local cable. I thought I'd send you and Boo one. They're supposed to be available in several weeks.

Kind of sad. Here's a guy who is at the top of his game carrying the jazz standard by doing local educational cable tv. Says a lot about the acceptance of jazz and about his dedication.

These are bad local productions, but this guy still KILLS!

Russ