I responded to a post by Lucky2Bhere in the 'Guitar Center' thread (with predictable results). The gist of it is repeated here:

quote:
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Originally posted by Lucky2Bhere:

Ref the GC situation. I can see it going a step further than that. In the near future you're probably going to see even fewer pro arranger keyboards on the market. Has anyone noticed that no one these days takes the time to learn or play professionally (OR sing even...watch American Idol). Music and performing will somehow be integrated into a computer (which is a natural seque as computers do everything for us now anyway).
Meantime, I'm NOT throwing away any old keyboards!


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Although your argument is kind of contradictory (not learning to play should help, not hurt, the development of arranger-type keyboards, as they represent the ultimate in computer-assisted 'playing'), I tend to agree with the part about not taking the time to learn to play at a professional level. I've said many times before that the 'ultimate' arranger is a MP3 player. That's one of the reasons I returned to straight organ playing. Although today's organs (ie. Nord C1) are lighter in weight and have a few electronically-based convenience features (ie. transpose), there is nothing there that's going to help you if you can't play. It kind of forces a return to musicians playing music.

Despite it's usefulness as a tool for OMB-type entertainers, if you look at it's (home-organ) roots, I'm guessing that it was never intended as a professional-use instrument, and the proof lies in how they are marketed. AND, despite what you may hear here on this board, you won't find many in true professional venues, either. When you see the bands on shows like Letterman, Leno, American Idol, etc., you will NEVER, EVER, see an arranger keyboard, only workstations, workstations, workstations.

You may have noticed that our beloved Ian is never more unloved than when he occasionally points out that no matter how much we want to believe that our arrangers are 'pro' instruments, they are marketed to, and intended for, the home market. Little clues like 'one-finger chords' still don't provide sufficient evidence for some of us .

We keep asking for features that helps us sound better while playing less. Why do we keep demanding less of ourselves and more of our keyboards? Here's some more news; audiences don't REALLY prefer MP3's, midi files, and arranger styles, to 'real' live music; we've just trained them to accept it (in some venues).

We tell ourselves that we're giving our audiences more (by using arrangers), but we're not. Some of the very best acts that I've seen in my lifetime have been with a single acoustic guitar or piano. What was common about them? They could all REALLY, REALLY PLAY.

I'm not really 'dissing' arranger keyboards; that would be ridiculous on an arranger forum. I just think that they should not be used as an alternative to learning to play. In all honesty, I also don't think they should be used in a professional setting either, but that's a personal thing with me. I think that they are wonderful tools for songwriters and excellent sketchpads for arrangers and composers. I even think that they can be an excellent source of creativity but should never be the end-product. I also think that my opinion is just that, my opinion. Not gospel, just opinion. Now, let's hear yours (without calling me nasty names).

chas (Tyros 2, PA1x Pro)

PS: Feel free to Hijack it or ignore it. They're only thoughts and opinions which you can agree or disagree with. Not exactly Darfur or Global Warming.

Actually, I think the use of "home arrangers" by "professional" players is rather clever.

Ian

Diki,

I must respectfully disagree with you on this one. I started out as a lead guitar player and vocalist at age 17, which was 50 years ago. I was rockin' crowds at niteclubs in Barcelona, Spain, Naples, Italy, Rhodes, Greece, Norfolk, Virginia and lots of other locations for nearly four years. I performed with a relatively large group (5-piece country and R&R band).

It was a wonderful experience, we had a great time together, but when I left them I switched to a drum machine, mic and guitar. Yep, it was me, a OMB in that smoke-filled bar room with lots of drunks dancing and singing along with my performances.

When arranger keyboards came along, I switched and never looked back. The same audiences that I performed to for many, many years loved the NEW ME! They loved the sounds, loved the songs, loved the vocals and the dancefloors were always packed. That was a long time ago, and the only thing that has changed is the technology that makes the arranger keyboard an incredible tool.

I performed today for about 50 seniors, folks that were not much older than myself. An 80-year-old guy in the audience said to me "Wow! I loved everything you did, your voice is incredible, and that machine you're playing is beyond anything I've ever heard."

I'll be the first to admit I'm not a polished player. The arranger keyboard, however, allows me to be very creative, do things I could never do as a solo guitar player/vocalist, the things I now do. Without the arranger keyboard I would still be perched upon a barstool, playing my guitar and singing my heart out for $150 a night.

In response to your post pertaining to the keyboards, most of the performers on this forum, and most other forums I actively participate on, these are NOT home keyboards in the hands of a pro entertainer. Yes, some have built-in speakers, most have 61 keys, they're lightweight and not all that expensive. It's not the keyboard, but instead it's the performer. The kids on American Idol are incredible performers--that's why they are where they are. BTW: I just read where Carie (spelling) Underwood made $12-million this year.

Cheers,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

Thanks Chas...

The only reason I asked to start your own thread is because I check the "email when there is a response" . When you go to the response and it has nothing to do with the
topic, it's a little frustrating.


So, let's talk about sounds on arranger keyboards.

Solo SOunds on Tyros do not equal Motif.
Korg PA series sounds do not equal Triton.
Roland G-70 sounds do not equal the Fantom.

Is this what your saying ?

Forget about the drum tracks and everything else that an arranger brings to the table.

Gary it's not Diki ...

No, re-read my post. This is not what I'm saying. That's because I'm not talking about sound comparisons with workstations or drum tracks; I'm talking about a concept.

chas

Oh, and Gary, although I can see how it could be easy to confuse me with my evil twin, Diki, the truth is, I think we're actually at odds on this particular subject.

originally posted by chas:
"....When you see the bands on shows like Letterman, Leno, American Idol, etc., you will NEVER, EVER, see an arranger keyboard, only workstations, workstations, workstations."


Would you expect to ?!? ... Arrangers are MADE for OMB - home user or PRO... why would a kb player in a band like Letterman's, or any other BAND for that matter, NEED an arranger ? ...
They are made for those of us who ENTERTAIN people with no other LIVE musicians, except perhaps a sax player or guitar player ... that IN ITSELF doesn't NECESSARILY make us any less a professional than anyone else ...

When I have the opportunity to play with a group - drums, bass, etc., the arranger is put in 'piano' mode and all accompamiment is turned off ......
t.

Glad you cleared that up.

OOOPS! I meant to address this to Chas. My bad.

Gary