I see what Chas "Charles, Charlie" is trying to say alright. Arrangers do not necessarily make you a polished keyboardist because the accompaniment detracts from correctly playing the keys and therefore keeps you from advancing in your keyboard playing skills. Advancing in proper technique key playing that is. But I think you are forgetting Chas "Charles, Charlie - Hey you!!" lol >> sorry Chas I couldn't resist, you are forgetting that most OMB players don't play in accompaniment mode 24/7, at least most of them anyway, so there are opportunities for arranger players to practice up on their Piano/Organ, etc. skills when the ACMP is off. Like Tony said, when he plays in a band setting he plays in Piano mode. As do I as well. In fact there is no way an arranger keyboard could/should be used in a real band setting beyond maybe doing so on an occassional basis with a Bass player and Drummer perhaps. When I am playing with a band I always turn accompaniment off. If I didn't sharp objects would be flying towards me in rapid succession.

I play my Tyros "oftentimes" in my home studio without any Style accompaniment and in fact OMB playing for me is maybe only 30% of my total playing experience with arranger keyboards. And I agree wholeheartedly that most professionals (big time artists) use an arranger only for a sketch pad or for making song arrangements in the studio or on the road and wouldn't be caught dead on stage with an arranger and especially with an arranger in accompaniment mode. Although with the advancements in keyboard technology and with soon coming breakthroughs in making arrangers sound more natural and life like to what a real band in a real band setting sounds like i.e. not mechanical or artificially canned looped based sounding so much, then things could drastically change and we might even see these big names playing an arranger (although I don't think they will be called arrangers but something else by then) - on stage in a live setting and with other band members playing along on their respective instruments. Maybe not in our lifetime but in my opinion it could be in our lifetime. I think the Ketron Audya is a trend setting step in that direction right now. And I'm sure Yamaha, Korg, and Roland will follow in that direction as well. If not, they risk being left behind the technological curve in my opinion.

It's a great day to be a keyboardist, and "especially" of the OMB kind in my opinion. And the reason I say that is because there are going to be things done with arranger keyboards in the near future technology wise that are most likely gonna blow our minds! No, it won't make a person play more skillfully in a correct technical fashion per se (he or she will need to do that themselves in Piano Mode ) but from a technology standpoint of what these new arrangers will be able to do musically and sonically will be astounding to say the least. And all I can say is bring it on!!

Best,
Mike

For Christ sake do we have to have a pissing contest to decide the value of arranger keyboards? They serve a purpose. They help those of us who are out there to sound not only good but great. BTW, you can play on an arranger. Don't you have a right hand? You can play incredible back up orchestrations, jazz leads, comps, ect. The only thing the arranger is doing is giving you the backups. And it's only doing that by way of the direction you give it. If you play sucky chords, that's what it will give you. If you play well thought out, well voiced chords, that's also what it will give you. I spent many years playing my own bass lines and all of the other lines. I find it nice to have the arranger pick up some of that. And I thought this forum was for arranger players.

Joe

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Songman55
Joe Ayala

Joe,

Your making alot of sense....
I have to agree with you all the way.

To clarify what I was trying to say:

For the last few years I've been casually talking to music dealers, salesman, musicians, and even some folks at Roland in California about arranger keyboards. The message has basically been that the high end arranger keyboards are not selling. In my area, one by one either the store closed (from Internet competition) or they stopped carrying the "biggies." I'd have to go into NY to see anything appreciable now and even then my understanding is those stores are even limited.

My own personal opinion is what I said previously (from my observations of the music performance arena)...that fewer musicians are investing in top of the line equipment. Why buy one of these exotic models when you never learned how to play correctly to begin with and your fast-food mentality will cause you to discard it before your 5 o'clock shadow appears? And then there's the economic squeeze where no one can afford these monstrosities anyway! And if you DO buy one, do you really want to sit down and take the time to learn how to program it (especially if it's a Ketron!)in today's busy world?

My prediction is that, yes, arranger keyboards will be around for a long time to come but only as small toys and party favors.
But..in the back of my mind, I really hope I'm wrong!

Lucky

First of all, I'd like to thank Gary for assuming that a controversial topic MUST have been started by me!

And I rather think that chas and I ARE on opposite sides on this one, but only in a SMALL way... I agree completely about the use of arrangers as a crutch for those that COULDN'T sound that good, even if they DID have a live band around them, but the way you use an arranger is entirely up to the player. If you can already blow, what you blow ON is not very important, as long as it sounds good.

The reason you NEVER see arrangers on Letterman is that those guys NEVER have to pull off an OMB situation. They got a band for everything they do (and a damn good one at that!). What use is all the auto stuff if you NEVER need it? But that brings us to players that SOMETIMES need it, and sometimes don't. Many of them will use a WS for the live band, and an arranger for the OMB. Me, I'm not in that camp. I prefer the familiarity of ONE keyboard for everything, if it is versatile enough. Live, OMB, recording, whatever...

Familiarity with your keyboard means less time thinking 'how do I put some more reverb on the string layer without putting it on the piano on THIS keyboard?' and more time just thinking about a great line to play. That's the only thing that is REALLY important, anyway.

Hence the reason I lug the G70 around. It (and the Korg PA1/2XPro's) are the only things that compare to REAL WS for the straight playing side (none of them have the loopstation thing down like WS's, but that is no more PLAYING than using an arranger's auto stuff). 76 keys (that's what you see most non-auto players playing or 88's, unless they have multi-keyboard rigs), 'pro' build quality for the long-term durability (and the hell with what it weighs... how long it LASTS is what is important!), first call piano, rhodes and B3 sounds (your main meat and potatoes). It doesn't get much better than this.

Now add in the arranger side for when you DO need this. Apart from the guitars (which are OK, but there are better!), I'll still put my G70, and me playing it, head to head with any other arranger out there. Many of us (including me!) obsess over every little detail in the OS of our (and everybody else's!) arranger, but bottom line (and here I agree with chas and Donny ( ), if you can't blow WITHOUT an arranger, you can't blow WITH one...

Now whether that makes you non-professional, I can't say. The definition of the profession keeps changing. It USED to mean you weren't professional, but today's market, for better or worse (OK, just worse!) is totally different. As our youth's market was totally different from our parent's. I remember (OK, I'm too young, but I can read!) when musicians called Les Paul's multi-tracked recordings 'cheating'. Not quite the same thing, but you get my point. Technology changes the definition of playing.

Let's face it, though... The primary reason many of us (at least, the gigging pros) use arrangers is economical. Few of you want to play with other musicians. You might make a bit less money. Then some of you play with arrangers because you don't want the hassle of finding musicians to play with, and the aggravations that can cause. And, I'm afraid, some of you maybe can't play well enough yourselves to attract musicians to play with YOU that are better than the pre-canned ones in arrangers!

Now, what you tell YOURSELF the reason for using arrangers in an OMB situation is may be different, but look at it honestly... If you COULD make as much money in a real band, and they were as good (or better, hopefully!) as the 'musicians' in your arranger, and the drummer didn't hit on your old lady why on EARTH would you prefer to play with a machine?

The fact is, there ARE players making more than you. And they NEVER play with machines. How do they do it? Easy... they are monster musicians. Full bore, 24/7 dedicated killer players. Can YOU play that well?

If not, whether you play with a machine or a real band, it's time to shed! Enough worrying about whether you have the latest, greatest, state of the art mechanical backing band, and more worrying whether you are the state of the art YOURSELF...!

The Pro establishment pulls out every trick in the book to ridicule portable keyboards, as can be seen here http://www.jazzhooves.com/index.html (And this is in a country where the arranger keyboard is accepted, so keep your fingers crossed they never put one on US TV, where arranger keyboards are treated as the lowest of the low by the establishment)
This is also not the first time that this has occurred.

Bill

C'mon, Bill... Somehow, this show is funny when a really bad singer gets the Simon treatment, but NOT when it's a really bad keyboard player??

The show disgusts me, and I NEVER watch it, but NOT because they are in some conspiracy to demean arranger keyboards. It's a conspiracy to demean EVERYONE, in the guise of 'entertainment'. And for me personally, the idea of a show where a considerable number of the entrants are deliberately chosen to humiliate them is just a little bit 'schadenfreude', a little too much Berlin in the 1920's... and we all know where THAT led!

Why can't we simply take joy anymore in the display of talent? Why is it SO much more successful if it includes the humiliation of the untalented? Have we all really stooped this low..?

I regard topics as this, as an English exercise and reading comprehension test. It is a difficult task, and that is where its "learn value" is, to distinguish what everyone here is saying, and then to try to realise if the poster has understood the concept of the thread, or what the others have been saying.

IMHO, Joe Ayala nailed in the head.

Also, a phrase Diki said, "...if you can't blow WITHOUT an arranger, you can't blow WITH one..." points to an important truth: That a poor player (like myself) will sound equally poor on a Steinway recorded inside a million dollar studio, as well as in a cheap Casio, recorded in my home.

In my opinion, a professional (musician or otherwise) is someone who is relying on a skill or a combination of skills, to deliver results that get positively accepted by others, who in turn PAY him/her, and that PAY is a part, or the whole, if his/her annual income.

To put it this way, if I had to name the pros here, it would be easy. Take everyone, strip him of all financial assets, give him 100 dollars for food and a Casio and see if he can live off that and prosper. THAT is what a pro is. Diki can play my Casio, I cannot play his G-70.

To lighen the tone, it seems that since this is an arranger forum, and consequently WS players do not frequent here, so no arranger vs WS wars exist, that musicians are constantly finding ways to fight each other, over other excuses.... Mp3 vs midi files, midi files vs accompaniment, accompaniment vs left hand bass, all of the above vs karaoke vs B3 vs jazz etc.

As much as I like these threads, I think that I would like to see you pros cooperate and learn from each other, post music, critique etc. But, on the other hand, if this forum gets "too pro", I will have to leave. Cause I am not a pro.

Now, did I understand the meaning of the thread myself or not?

[This message has been edited by trident (edited 04-15-2008).]

So I set up my tools and place my tuning device on the piano. My job is to tune the piano to the best of my ability. My tuning device is the same as the guitar players use to tune their guitars, except it cost just under $2,000.
I am able to tune with precision that 95% of ear tuners CAN NOT do. In the past a tuner did his best to guess in certain areas, because of my tuning device I do not have to guess.

A comment that has been given: “You don’t have to use you ear anymore, there goes another art”.
A comment I overheard on a job, I was playing my keyboard live: “All that music is recorded in the keyboard, I think it’s like a tape recorder”.

This clearly tells me that we have ignorant people roaming about. I play in local condos, and on rare occasions have played at the Breakers Hotel here in Florida, it is one high-end hotels in Palm Beach. Why do you not see OMB in this Hotel?
1-If you can afford this hotel the dollars for a live band is normally not a problem.
2-A OMB is what you use to save money.
I played a job back in New York where the bill for the flower arrangement was $100,000. They did not hire a OMB.

All of that being said – one more thing – and I am saying this in my best humble manner – my OMB sounds better than most of the 4 to 5 men groups I have heard. Arranger keyboards are look down as a toy representing no status by both the public and the pro musicians.

Fact: It takes a lot more talent and knowledge to play a live OMB, I have to know about all instruments and how they should be played. A n d, I have to know all about programming my instrument. And I have to do this all while I am singing or relating to whoever. I bet that some of the people who hire us feel we are using toys to perform, BUT smile as the pay for one man instead of 4 or 5 men.

I am proud and I enjoy playing my keyboard, it is the closest I can get to playing with a live band. After playing with a live band for so many years, and missing it, I can sit at my keyboard and earn and enjoy.

John C.

PS, I know of three big name book stores that have closed because of the Internet, I feel that is why arrangers are no longer displayed in most music stores.

You're right, Trident...it can be a effort to wade through all the fluff...I often wonder if some posters actually read what the've written before submitting.

I think Joe "nailed it in the head" as you so well described it...he echoes my sentiments very closely.

I don’t know what the key to success is, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone.

I use what is necessary (in my case, an arranger keyboard) to make a living with my music...a sin to the purist, but it is me (and my audience) I am trying to please, not the purist. I make no apologies. Period.

If it's stupid and it works...it ain't stupid.

And, Lucky2Bhere is right about stores not stocking high end arrangers...fine with me, because I get to take one around to the dealers so a few potential customers can actually hear one being played and get to try it themselves...job security for me, but not so good for those wanting to try one on their own time.

Even mid range arrangers aren't carried much any more.

Store "trying" and Internet "buying" have been the major culprits.

This thread may not establish much in the way of a conclusion...but it is bound to become entertaining.

I found this article by Tom Stampfli quite interesting...maybe some others will as well. http://music.utsa.edu/tdml/conf-I/I-Stampfli.html


Ian


[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-15-2008).]