As a long-time arranger player (mid-70's with an auto-orchestra), it is my opinion that is is much harder, but much more satisfying, to play a solo with just piano or guitar.

Style comes into it, of course (couldn't play a dance gig with just a grand piano), but my approach is to use arrangers as a tool, not as a crutch. An arranger is my last choice when working.

Sadly, around here, most of the people working with arrangers never worked until they used arrangers. Just didn't have the "chops".

Upfront, I admit I'm about as "old school" as it gets, and this is my opinion...for ME, and not a suggestion that anyone else needs to believe the same way.

There's no substitute for ability. All things being equal, the better you are as a traditional player, the better arranger player you'll be.


"rigid" Russ

It has been my experience that "rigid" traditional players have a very hard time adjusting to playing an arranger, especially in auto-accompaniment mode.

Their "chops" actually get in the way...especially left hand.

Organ players seem to manage better than piano players, but neither can take to it without a lot of adjustments and re-thinking.

I've seen this happen many times and with very competent traditional players.

Ian the Flexible

Surprise, surprise, Chas. I Agree!


Russ

My mother is 90 and knows nothing about music or recording or sound systems never owned a cd. Even records and record players where a big luxury in our house.
But she knows when she sees a piano player playing piano beautiful music she enjoys it. When she hears the organist at the roller rink or the restaurant she enjoys it. When she sees a small combo with an organ drums guitar whatever she enjoys it.

When she sees one guy with one keyboard that sounds like a whole band with drums and horns and strings an guitars and bass and etc. Singing in harmony with 3 voices and it's just him on the stage, She doesn't know the technology but she knows he's not playing all that.
She knows he's using something to enhance his performance whether it is tape or a midi or style, that she doesn't know, she just knows one man is not doing it all.
Now the entertainer gets up and walks around the room singing while the keyboard is playing itself....
She's lived through the depression and 90 years of supporting herself and her family and still lives in her own home alone so who is ignorant?

All that music IS in the keyboard we just trigger the changes and arrange it in real time but we're not playing the drums and bass and horn lines. Maybe one line but not all of them.
I'm not trying to start anything here there is a talent to it and performing and singing take a talent all it's own. But let's not try and take too much of the credit for the machine.

[This message has been edited by mikeathome1 (edited 04-15-2008).]

i dont know if this has been added in the mix but what about inspiration ? I am not a pro player but i am working on it. The one thing that an arranger does that a traditional linear instrument does not do so well is inspire a musician . When i switch on my PAX i have the worlds best musicians at my finger tips and they teach me ! I have learned new licks and runs and progressions just from listening to the intros and endings in all types of styles.

I play both in arranger/piano mode and straight piano. Sometimes all i have is drum and bass and main keys on when i play with the PAX scanning the full keys.

I agree with the initial premise that an arranger should not be used as an excuse not to learn to play but i believe that it actually can help people to play. I had 3 years formal Jazz tuition on a standard 88 key piano. I read the music from the sheet and although i have a natural ear for music i found learning jazz in this way stilted and false. When i got my arranger i started hearing stuff in the jazz styles that although i was being taught it , it did not really make sense until it was encompassed in the complete sound of a bass and drum and horns. I have learned more about playing jazz in practice through playing two handed on my arranger supplemented by formal learning.

I dont think musicians should hide behind the auto accompaniment. But when used well and skillfiully you can get some incredible results

Nice to see a return to civility in the thread, even if the opinions continue to differ. And therein lies the rub. We (some of us) seem to think that all threads that advance some kind of premise, MUST have a unanimous conclusion. How many times, including in this thread, do you see people arguing some point that is only remotely related (and sometimes not at all) to the thread's original premise. Dan01 was entirely correct in telling me to 'start my own thread' when my post veered away from the original topic. I think this thread proves that a thread can host an exchange of ideas, be entertaining, and still not be confrontational. But let's not go off the deep end......after all, it's still SynthZone .

chas

Sorry, guys, but here I go again..!

Sadly, the thing about arranger play, and ESPECIALLY arranger play from those that learned to play on an arranger, is the fact that it can sound pretty good, even when you are awful! I can't count the number of truly appalling solos trotted out sometimes by their proud creators at different sites, and if you ask these folks if they can play, they'll say 'sure I can... listen to this'.

Trouble is, stop the arranger and listen to what is actually played, not sequenced, and it's pretty grim. The pre-canned Intro gets you all worked up, then they start playing... ouch! The arranger is the ultimate self-deception tool. Surround a ghastly sax emulation with a pillow of nice bigband styles, and all of a sudden you've got someone who thinks they deserve to be onstage. And, if their price is right, that's where they'll end up!

But if that arranger ever crashes...

But, in the hands of those that can already blow by themselves adequately, or experienced full band players, they can be amazing, but the pitfall so many fall into is using more mechanical stuff than they HAVE to. I try to treat mine like a rhythm section... Bass, drums, guitar (if I haven't got one), and that's it. So how do you get the piano AND the horns AND the strings, and all the other parts, you ask...? Same way you get them if you were in a four piece. You PLAY them ALL. Live. Old school. You don't have a left and right hands, you have two right hands!

Velocity splits, layers, expression pedals... all of these can be used to squeeze more sounds out of your playing than you could ever imagine. But you are unlikely to try it (and hence develop those techniques) if your arranger already does it for you. 'But why SHOULD I learn how to do this, if my arranger already does it so well?', you ask... Well, ask yourself this - what would you do if a great band in your area offered you the position? Good money, GREAT players to play with, music you enjoy. Could you actually pull off live what they have heard you do on an arranger?

If NOT... Time to shed!

Some of you have commented about how much better you sound since you left live playing, and moved to arrangers. I'm sorry, but the only thing that tells us is how poor that band you were in must have been! The thought of a guitarist playing EXACTLY the same two or four bar groove for an entire section of a song (or the entire song!) gives me the willies! Ditto the drummer, and don't get me started about the bassist! That's the one area an arranger doesn't even come close... A real bass player moves TOWARDS the next chord. An arranger bass moves away from THIS one. Totally different approach.

If you THINK you are making music with an arranger, turn it off and play live. Find out for yourself just exactly how much you are relying on the ACC. Then perhaps you can take a more realistic view of whether the arranger is helping, or hurting you at your goal of being a better musician.

As a learning and teaching tool, I LOVE arrangers. I DON'T agree with chas here. If you treat them as a VERY fancy James Aebersold exercise regimen, then they can instill great timing and adventurous solo habits LONG before you would be good enough to be invited to blow with a rhythm section that good. But use them as a reason to NOT learn multi-keyboard techniques and rhythm section play (you are VERY unlikely to get a position as keyboard SOLOIST, most songs only have 16 bars of soloing, tops!), and you are condemning yourself to ALWAYS having to play with them.

This isn't music, this is the FACSIMILE of music. It sounds like music, but it's a recording. That's all arrangers are. Small loops of canned music that follow your chords. No better than an SMF, except there, there don't have to be ANY loops..!

Arrangers are a great way for an experienced player to maximize his profits (and the club's that hires him), but it takes GREAT care to not let yourself get carried away by how good it sounds. And for the beginner or intermediate player, still learning, once again, it's a great tool only as long as it remains a small PART of your entire learning experience...

Technology changes, and at a rapid clip, these days. Invest your learning process solely to arranger play, and you run the risk of being out in the cold when other techniques become prevalent. But learn to do it ALL yourself, and you will be able to adapt yourself to any future technology MUCH faster...

Great post, Diki.......except for the part about not agreeing with me 100% .

chas

hi,
personally, if either of my sons had been interested in music, I wouldn't have encouraged them to play an arranger keyboard. I would have much preferred they took up piano or guitar or whatever. The younger one did learn guitar for about 6 months, but he was far more interested in playing sport.
As for myself, I was 20, and way too old according to my piano teacher , to ever become a decent piano player. I just wanted to be able to play the odd tune for self entertainment. 15 years down the track, along came the arranger keyboard & I was conductor, soloist & backing band all in one.

Still think a child should be taught a traditional instrument rather than an arranger keyboard. Also seems like a lot of the pro players using arranger keyboards, may have actually learnt and played a traditional instrument in the beginning ??

best wishes
Rikki

OMG ... my eyes hurt. I can't read anymore of this !!!!!!!!!
I'm going to hug every one of my ADHD OCD teens tomorrow!