i dont think that you are making a fair comparrison. You are comparing apples with oranges. If you take the best musicians in the world and put them together i guess they would come up with some amazing music and would be playing freely and intuitively but their music would still have to follow certain rules. They would have toplay in the same key, in the same time, they would not all be able to solo at the same time, someone would have to do the "meat and potatoes" part of an arrangement so that the whole piece sounds tasteful.

The arranger keyboard does the meat and potatoes part and will never sound like Dream theatre . But as a player you can add spice and taset so that the entire performance demonstrates skill and training.

Yes there are greater restrictions and no it wont sound exackly like live musicians every time you play because you will have heard that 16 bar pattern many times over and will know that bass line pattern, will know that fill riff 1,2,3, etc and the only truly original element to what you play is you. but what you do within those constraints that i grant you exist is simply unlimited. Thats the exciting thing about arrangers.

I have played with live musicians who know absolutely nothing about taste and finess, who go at every note like their lives depended upon it. Drummers who think that hitting splash symols hard and often makes them great drummers even though they have no concept of time! But as some one who does regard themselves as a musician first(aspiring at least) who happens to play an arranger , i have ultimate flexibility when i use an arranger. I can play live with other live musicians and just the rhythm section or with rhythm and bass coming from my keyboard. Unfortunately many arranger players simply dont aspire to do much more than accompany the accompanyment. But dont blame the instrument. I have come accross mediocre bass players,guitarists too but i dont blame the instrument for the poor sound.

The ultimate arranger player is Jordan rudess but he would not describe himself as one. But he uses the technology within th oasys (and the kurzweil before that) just like an arranger player would use an aranger with registrations and samples that are set up and triggered when he plays certain keys. He may have created or sampled all the sounds himself but he triggers certain patterns just like we do.

Its just far more impressive and clever and less predictable when he does it

Yo Chas.... Man am I glad you started a new thread.

Unless of course, it was the artist's intent to use the prefab sound from the rhythm section of a keyboard.

Leonard Cohen's, Tower of Song, for instance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYJf4J7VBaY

-mike

Wow! Mike, how do you find these things? Cool!

Ian

Mike is one of my heros, and spalding hit the nail on the head. I'm sure glad the boat goes in the water tomorrow. Then I won't have an excuse to log on to the forum. Have a good summer guys and gals.

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

Look, guys, please don't forget... I use an arranger myself!

I am not knocking their use, just their abuse! Your Jordan Ruddess quote showed quite precisely where I stand on this. Great musicians DO occasionally use arrangers. And so do MANY very poor ones. How you USE the technology is what's important. Scour the Internet for ONE tune where a real artist has used one doesn't negate the fact that the overwhelming 99.9999% of them DON'T.

One thing you will NEVER see is Jordan holding down a chord in his left hand, and playing a simple one note solo over a factory style, and calling himself a musician because he can pull this off. Just like Ian, and some others here do, he designs these loops and 'styles' himself, and uses them as part of a MUCH more complex performance. And you will NEVER hear Jordan saying he PREFERS to play with these machines because of how poor his 'live' musician friends are..!

Look, I'm sorry if I'm going to tweak anybody's ego here, but if all the musicians (or most of them) that you have played with have been lousy, perhaps it's time to look in the mirror. I know for a fact that great musicians like to play with OTHER great musicians. Why are you playing full time with an arranger, if you WOULD like to play with great musicians? Why aren't YOU getting the call? Why are most of the people you have played with so bad?

Everyone slags the 'poor' drummer, or volume deaf guitarists... What about the arranger player that drowns his accompaniment out? Or can't play in time with his backing (because he can't HEAR the drum part, maybe? ). What about the arranger player that trots out a 'sax solo' that hasn't got ONE bend in it, or a spot where a sax player might BREATHE, for Pete's sake? I've heard SO many of these, and then they have the gall to complain about the poor musicians that WILL play with them!

I guess I tend to assume that any player's goal is to become a better musician. After reading MANY comments here, I am obviously wrong about this. Many (not all, obviously, so don't just ASSume this is about you - look in that mirror for yourself ) simply want the latest technology, so they DON'T have to become a better musician. As long as it's all done for you, why bother?

Why bother, indeed...

Cant blame you Gary....Bon Voyage....
have a great Summer Sailing!
I'm jealous....btw do you ever play your arranger on board!

John,

When I get a 47 Morgan Out Island, which I hope will be next year, I'll be heading for Marathon Key, Florida, spend my winters there playing the tiki bars and drinking margarettas. Seems like the logical thing to do--especially because I'm not in the same league with guys like Diki and Chas. I'll just have fun doing what I've been doing for the past 50 years, entertaining people who want to have fun.

Cheers,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

Gary.....man o man that sounds great!
I would say you know exactly what your doing, & doing it very well. The people of south Florida are in for a real musical treat for sure.

Hey Ian,

I'm rather familiar with that song along with other Cohen classics.

The video I was looking for was his 1988 Austin City Limits performance where he walks out on stage, starts the drum track (same Technics board), stops it, fidgets with a button or two, then starts it again. Ah technology....

Carry on!

-mike