I don't know what kind of effect you were going for with that statement, Gary. Never thought of you as being the petty type. Also don't know what part of my post would elicit such a comment. Still, I respect your right to say it, whatever the intent. Happy sailing.

chas

Chas,

No disrespect. Diki says you're a hell of a jazz player, and I assume that's the case. I'm not a good player, never professed to be, just an entertainer. I only wish I had half the talent some of the guys on the forum have when it comes to playing. I can't read a note, never could, don't have enough formal training to even talk about, but I have a lot of fun doing what I do--entertaining. For me, a guy that began playing a 6-string guitar and singing in a smoke filled bar at age 17, then graduating to a 12-string guitar and playing bigger bars and restaurants for 10 years, the arranger keyboard is the best thing since sliced bread. Sure, I play a lot of different types of music, even some jazz, but I have always envied individuals that have hands that can fly over any instrument and hit all the right notes. And, from what Diki says, you're in that category. I don't always agree with what Diki says, or for that matter what anyone else says, but I do read every post and even at my age I continue to learn by reading the threads on this and other forums. There are some extremely talented and inteligent individuals here. Sometimes they get into a pissin' contest, which irks the hell out of me, but that's another story.

Cheers,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

Diki ... yes, he can ... but I saw him live at the Newport Jazz Festival a couple of years ago, and while singing "I get a kick out of you" he would KICK the keybed at the "appropriate" (?) time ... then he stood on the piano bench and would run his bare feet (he was barefoot for his whole show) up and down the keys ... If a piano player can't show respect for a Steinway Grand Piano, what can he show respect for? ... He turned me off ...
t.

LOL... yes! I wanted to see the look on his piano tech's face. But in fairness, they are a LOT more robust than people give them credit for, and Jamie has been, let's be kind and just say 'muscular' with his pianos for a LONG time. Any rental company will have a damage rider, and only themselves to blame if they do not know what kind of act he does!

But standing on the piano, slamming the lid, messing around inside the frame, strumming the strings, damping by hand... these techniques go back a LONG way before Jamie (Jerry Lee, anyone?). Some of the 'prepared piano' techniques even give ME the willies!

Perhaps it is time that we stopped treating pianos with some kind of religious reverence, and started treating them like other musical instruments... no worse, but no better. Many a kid has been intimidated OFF of playing piano by the scare some adults put into them about treating it nice...! They ARE percussion instruments, after all

Try telling a guitarist not to knock the body, or a bass player not to slap it around! And don't get me started about drummers!

Next time you see a beat up piano, give it a kick...! See who gets hurt first

And Gary... sorry if the discussion gets a little passionate at times. Price you pay, I guess, for BEING passionate!

You know, I don't really get the point of coming to a online forum, and then reining in what you want to talk about. It's a fair bit of typing (not my best skill!), time spent and thinking to get across whatever you want to say. If all I wanted to do was mumble a few platitudes and not really care one way or the other, why would I bother..? I could go down a bar and do that!

Look, I'm not putting down 'entertainers'. A LOT of you sing FAR better than me, and have your audiences very dialed in, great repertoires, strong work ethic, you name it. I give respect where it is due...

The trouble gets where a few decide that, as they now sound the best they ever had, it MUST be because they are a better musician than they used to. You have never come across like this, so please don't read any more into what I say than WHAT I say...! But get the latest, greatest TOTL arranger, whatever, and it makes NO difference to your ability as a 'musician'. But it can SURE make you a better 'entertainer', and there's nothing wrong with that.

Just keeping a level head, with the 'instant gratification' factor that arrangers give us all is important, I believe. Or, sooner or later, we start to convince ourselves we ARE better players than we used to be. Turn OFF your arranger and find out the real truth...

I do NOT believe in the 'too old to learn' excuse. That's all it is. Some of us keep learning, and growing until the day they bury us. And SOME of us use the crutch of the arranger to STOP. There's a great big wide world of music out there, and to miss out on it because you let your arranger do the work rather than learning to do it yourself seems such a waste...

Modern arrangers are MORE than capable of holding their heads high in a live band compared to WS's. Give music making with OTHERS a try, from time to time. It can be a blast! Just remember to be as tolerant of THEIR musical shortcomings as they are being about YOURS...

This is one of the most interesting threads I have encountered in a while.

Unfortunately, not many persons see the value as we do in using the arranger in that way.


The power in an arranger is making your own styles, having your own arrangement of a cover (and not trying to sound like the original recording) and showing that you can be flexible in a song are ways in which the player’s ability can be showcased with an arranger.

You can tell the ones who really know what they are doing. If you can stay with an arranger for more than 5 years, rather than change every 10 months, you probably are a player.

Unfortunately some person just want to turn on a keyboard, press 1, 2, or 3 notes in their left hand and get a full prerecorded track and occasionally play something in their right hand and believe that they are great musicians and should be compared in value to a real gigging band.

Gary, the last posts by you and Diki are two of the best I've read on SynthZone. They both explain the value of both musicianship and the ability to entertain. Sometimes the two are combined and sometimes, not so much. As others, such as Capt. Russ who is more musician-leaning, have said many times before, I have nothing but the utmost respect for those who are able to entertain at a high level, and from what I can gather, you are one of the very best at it. And though you may say differently, I'm sure your musical skills are more than adequate to produce the professional product you offer to entertainment venues. If it's good enough to put you into a 47' sailboat, it can't be that bad .

I live in a town of about 70,000 with maybe 100+ venues that regularly offer live entertainment. I can play in about 3-4 of them; you could probably play in about 80 of them. That's the difference in being a 'niche' musician and a pro-level musical entertainer. My only 'entertainment value' is that I tend to make involuntary facial expressions when I play (which is embarrassing to me, by the way). Sorta' like BB King. It's because I really 'feel' (at the molecular level) blues 'licks' and exotic chords and tend to play in a blues/soul oriented way (I play a lot of minor key standards - i.e. Funny Valentine, Angel Eyes, etc.).

I DO NOT, DO NOT, DO NOT, LOOK DOWN on entertainers that use arranger keyboards (AS arranger keyboards) in their acts. In my view, music is merely the vehicle they chose to use to entertain. The music, though important, is secondary to the overall goal of ENTERTAINING. The 'music for music's sake', such as found in jazz clubs, is another matter. Different skill set (sometimes), different audience, different atmosphere, different world. Both have a place (and often even meet) in the overall entity we call the entertainment business. Anyone who thinks one is superior or has more value than the other is either an idiot or has way too much ego.

I still hold that (IMO) a young person with 'pro musician' aspirations, would benefit more from (initial) traditional training on a traditional instrument, rather than an arranger keyboard. This DOES NOT make me a hater of arranger keyboards OR the people that use them. It also does not make me a purist or an elitist. I hope this clears up my position.

chas

Chas:
I wish I would've gotten a better musical education as a youngster. I'm with you on that and I envy the guys that did. And continued though their lives. Although as mentioned in a post on the bar the pursuit of music has made a lot of my friends 60 year old children that still can't support themselves, because of one vice or another.

Diki:

Yes learning is a lifelong process but in my early 20's maybe when you were continuing your education and working on your craft I was having a family and working on the values and security I thought was important to provide for my family. Music took a secondary role, I never gave it up completely but I choose not to dedicate my life to it.

Who was right? Who was wrong?
I guess that's a personal choice.
I still enjoy music but, for me, it is still not on the top of the list.

But I'm glad that you both respect us "entertainers". And I do understand what I perceive to be your frustration about some entertainers pretending to be musicians.
But you have pretenders in all walks of life not just music.
Does the fact that I choose a different path make me less professional, or less passionate? As long as I don't oversell my abilities I don't think so.(see my disclaimer above)

Now look at all these differing viewpoints and how civil this post has remained, what's up with that?



[This message has been edited by mikeathome1 (edited 04-17-2008).]

Yeah, isn't it grand. ALTHOUGH, there are times when you wish you could eschew political correctness, collegial polity, civility, and the like, and just say, 'Man, that sucked.....keep posting if you feel you must, but stop telling everyone you're a WORKING PRO'. BTW, I never have these thought or feelings about people who say up front that they are amateurs, home players, or singers or instrumentalist who use arrangers for accompaniment but are obviously quite proficient on their primary instruments (or vocals). Of course, having the freedom to do that would open the door for personal attacks and hostile feelings that may have little to do with music. Anyway.....

Peace Out (for now )

chas